Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Saudis have been our allies for decades, Labour and conservative govts.

Pinochet themselves then, or the apartheid regime in South Africa, perhaps? Or maybe the Chinese now? I could give a laundry list.

 

The point is no one can really score points on this kind of thing and so trying to is pretty redundant...but that doesn't stop Venezuela being repeatedly mentioned here.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, MattP said:

Well it makes it more understandable. You put up with more from allies than you do enemies. 

 

I'd take that over the weird relationships we would end up having with Corbyn and Co in charge based on nothing more than his anti American or anti Israeli views.

Tbh i absolutely think we should be lining up with the eu to criticise israel. Ever since UN partician at the end of the war israel has done everything possible to undermine agreed borders. Its settlement building is illegal and they should absolutely be called out on it.

 

 

 

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Pinochet themselves then, or the apartheid regime in South Africa, perhaps? Or maybe the Chinese now? I could give a laundry list.

 

The point is no one can really score points on this kind of thing and so trying to is pretty redundant...but that doesn't stop Venezuela being repeatedly mentioned here.

Labour have a different policy towards China? News to me. As for S. Africa Mandela said Mrs Thatcher was an enemy of apartheid.

[Guest]

If we reach 100 pages do we sign iheanacho btw?

[The Floyd]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

Hey, I'm more than happy to say it to your face, boy.

 

 

Christ. Regardless of whether you trust his politics or intellect, he's not being personal or particularly offensive so why not just ignore it?

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Labour have a different policy towards China? News to me. As for S. Africa Mandela said Mrs Thatcher was an enemy of apartheid.

Who knows? If they get into government we might find out. With South Africa I'm sure Maggie was an enemy of the apartheid system after it collapsed and possibly even before but that didn't stop her government having extensive trade and diplomatic links with them and not supporting sanctions for the longest time. "Constructive engagement", I believe it was called.

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Labour have a different policy towards China? News to me. As for S. Africa Mandela said Mrs Thatcher was an enemy of apartheid.

 

The same Mrs Thatcher who labelled the ANC terrorists (and by extension Mandela himself)?

 

The same Mrs Thatcher who refused to impose sanctions on SA?

 

The same Mrs Thatcher whose policies over SA apartheid Call me Dave felt the need to apologise for?

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-apologises-for-thatcher-apartheid-policies-413569.html

 

Surely not?

[Guest MattP]

11 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Tbh i absolutely think we should be lining up with the eu to criticise israel. Ever since UN partician at the end of the war israel has done everything possible to undermine agreed borders. Its settlement building is illegal and they should absolutely be called out on it.

Yeah with all the stuff going on in the middle east now let's line up to attack the the one functional democracy where minorities enjoy equal rights.

 

Great idea.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

The same Mrs Thatcher who labelled the ANC terrorists (and by extension Mandela himself)?

 

The same Mrs Thatcher who refused to impose sanctions on SA?

 

The same Mrs Thatcher whose policies over SA apartheid Call me Dave felt the need to apologise for?

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-apologises-for-thatcher-apartheid-policies-413569.html

 

Surely not?

I posted an article in the last politics thread where Mrs Thatchers opposition to apartheid was explained, with quotes from the people involved, including Mandela. Call me Dave always pandered to the Guardianistas, his apology doesn't mean anything.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Yeah with all the stuff going on in the middle east now let's line up to attack the the one functional democracy where minorities enjoy equal rights.

 

Great idea.

I don't like the idea that we can't criticise things countries do wrong just because they do other things right. 

[Buce]

Just now, Webbo said:

I posted an article in the last politics thread where Mrs Thatchers opposition to apartheid was explained, with quotes from the people involved, including Mandela. Call me Dave always pandered to the Guardianistas, his apology doesn't mean anything.

 

Could you re-post it?

[Webbo]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/11403728/Margaret-Thatchers-secret-campaign-to-end-apartheid.html

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr The Singh]

6 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I posted an article in the last politics thread where Mrs Thatchers opposition to apartheid was explained, with quotes from the people involved, including Mandela. Call me Dave always pandered to the Guardianistas, his apology doesn't mean anything.

Same Maggie who aided and supported the Indian government in the genocide of Sikhs

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Dr The Singh said:

Same Maggie who aided and supported the Indian government in the genocide of Sikhs

I don't really know a lot about the subject but from what you've posted on here in the past, the army gave advice to the Indian govt some advice over the seige at the Golden Temple. We don't know what that advice was or whether the Indian Govt took any notice of it.

[Dr The Singh]

Just now, Webbo said:

I don't really know a lot about the subject but from what you've posted on here in the past, the army gave advice to the Indian govt some advice over the seige at the Golden Temple. We don't know what that advice was or whether the Indian Govt took any notice of it.

The SAS trained the Indian Army on a made up model of the Golden Temple, a year before the attack.  They also provided strategy for the attack, for both operation bluestar and operation woodrose.  This operations lead to mass killings and raped of innocent Sikhs in a grand scale, all of which Maggie fully knew and complied.

 

Back in Britian, Maggie banned our religious marches with no reason given,which we do every year and still do and arrested key individual prior to the attack.  This was to stifle Sikhs ability to rally against India and highlight to the world the genocidal attacks

 

This was in a deal for India to buy army helicopters off Britian and threats from India to stop trade.  

[Buce]

55 minutes ago, Webbo said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/11403728/Margaret-Thatchers-secret-campaign-to-end-apartheid.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

You'll not be surprised to find that account  is hotly disputed.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/the-terrorist-and-the-tories-what-did-nelson-mandela-really-think-of-margaret-thatcher-8990872.html

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/03/thatcher-mandela-release

 

https://blackamericaweb.com/2013/04/09/safricans-to-thatcher-good-riddance-thatcher-called-mandela-and-anc-movement-terrorist/2/

 

 

 

Even so, it doesn't address my point: Thatcher did refuse sanctions; she did label the ANC as typical terrorists.

Edited 1 August 2017 by Buce

[Webbo]

23 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

You'll not be surprised to find that account  is hotly disputed.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/the-terrorist-and-the-tories-what-did-nelson-mandela-really-think-of-margaret-thatcher-8990872.html

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/03/thatcher-mandela-release

 

https://blackamericaweb.com/2013/04/09/safricans-to-thatcher-good-riddance-thatcher-called-mandela-and-anc-movement-terrorist/2/

 

 

 

Even so, it doesn't address my point: Thatcher did refuse sanctions; she did label the ANC as typical terrorists.

There were limited sanctions as mentioned in the article. Mrs T didn't believe in them, whether she was right or wrong about that is a matter of opinion.

[Strokes]

4 hours ago, toddybad said:

The current VP is accused by the US of drig trafficking. The labour leadership supported chavez, not what came after. 

 

I'm really not particularly interested in the issue at all - in the same way that you don't seem interested in the torys supporting saudi arabia when it appears they are funding terrorism.

 

I see absolutely no link between the venezuelan government and the type of socialism corbyn wishes to implement in the uk. Anybody arguing that point is really rather clutching at straws as the venuzuelan government is a million miles from anything that could be implemented in the uk. 

 

I'm interested in the changes that labour want to make in Britain. Not what happens in central america, not what happens in china, Britain.

 

The minute the tories have a response to falling wages, an nhs at breaking point, schools asking for money from parents, record personal debt and a government reducing disability payments at the same time as cutting inheritence taxes, I'll start to listen.

The NHS has been at breaking point for sometime, any ideas of when it's due? It's been nearly 7 years this line has been trotted out.

[Guest]

So, very nearly 100 pages down and so far we've had arguments, apologies, deep discussions and bad tempered repartee. What we haven't had is anybody change their mind about anything......kinda gotta wonder if there's really any point to this 

 

Anyway, i would really like to see this be party apolitical but i think this is a brilliant piece by monbiot. One of my biggest concerns now is the environment. If you don't understand why i urge you to read the un reports and other recent scientific papers and you'll understand how hideously we've ****ed things up and how quickly we need to respond. Anyway:

 

The car has a chokehold on Britain. It’s time to free ourselves

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/01/car-chokehold-britain-polluted-inefficient-transport-system-motor-industry?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

So, very nearly 100 pages down and so far we've had arguments, apologies, deep discussions and bad tempered repartee. What we haven't had is anybody change their mind about anything......kinda gotta wonder if there's really any point to this 

 

Anyway, i would really like to see this be party apolitical but i think this is a brilliant piece by monbiot. One of my biggest concerns now is the environment. If you don't understand why i urge you to read the un reports and other recent scientific papers and you'll understand how hideously we've ****ed things up and how quickly we need to respond. Anyway:

 

The car has a chokehold on Britain. It’s time to free ourselves

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/01/car-chokehold-britain-polluted-inefficient-transport-system-motor-industry?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

People do change their minds all the time, if you think they are going to change their entire belief system, in a hundred pages of mostly squabbling then you must be pretty delusional  

[Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

So, very nearly 100 pages down and so far we've had arguments, apologies, deep discussions and bad tempered repartee. What we haven't had is anybody change their mind about anything......kinda gotta wonder if there's really any point to this 

 

Anyway, i would really like to see this be party apolitical but i think this is a brilliant piece by monbiot. One of my biggest concerns now is the environment. If you don't understand why i urge you to read the un reports and other recent scientific papers and you'll understand how hideously we've ****ed things up and how quickly we need to respond. Anyway:

 

The car has a chokehold on Britain. It’s time to free ourselves

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/01/car-chokehold-britain-polluted-inefficient-transport-system-motor-industry?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

 

Decent enough read that. Transport policy has been a shambles for some time now and I doubt it's going to improve any time soon. I'm not entirely sure attacking the car is particularly useful way of altering that tho I can't for the life of me understand why anyone has a car anywhere near central London. There's gonna need to be a huge change in the preferences and activities of individuals to affect much of a change in the use of cars. 

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

So, very nearly 100 pages down and so far we've had arguments, apologies, deep discussions and bad tempered repartee. What we haven't had is anybody change their mind about anything......kinda gotta wonder if there's really any point to this 

 

Anyway, i would really like to see this be party apolitical but i think this is a brilliant piece by monbiot. One of my biggest concerns now is the environment. If you don't understand why i urge you to read the un reports and other recent scientific papers and you'll understand how hideously we've ****ed things up and how quickly we need to respond. Anyway:

 

The car has a chokehold on Britain. It’s time to free ourselves

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/01/car-chokehold-britain-polluted-inefficient-transport-system-motor-industry?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

So what's the answer then?

 

People want to be independent and get from A to B on their own terms and in their own comfort.

 

It is what it is and I can't see it changing.

 

Accept the roads are a fvckin nightmare and just leave earlier.

 

As for the environment, it looks like electric cars are the future - so what's the problem?

[Guest]

9 hours ago, KingGTF said:

 

Decent enough read that. Transport policy has been a shambles for some time now and I doubt it's going to improve any time soon. I'm not entirely sure attacking the car is particularly useful way of altering that tho I can't for the life of me understand why anyone has a car anywhere near central London. There's gonna need to be a huge change in the preferences and activities of individuals to affect much of a change in the use of cars. 

 

9 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

So what's the answer then?

 

People want to be independent and get from A to B on their own terms and in their own comfort.

 

It is what it is and I can't see it changing.

 

Accept the roads are a fvckin nightmare and just leave earlier.

 

As for the environment, it looks like electric cars are the future - so what's the problem?

Yeah electric cars are needed asap. There are huge swathes of jobs though - high %s of those in offices - where peoole could very easily do their work at home. It seems to me bizarre that everybody finds it totally normal for everybody (or at least the majority) to go to and leave work at broadly the same time and sit in huge long tailbacks wasting everybody's time whilst pumping huge amounts of pollution into the atmosphere. It's clearly completely nuts.

[Izzy]

59 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

Yeah electric cars are needed asap. There are huge swathes of jobs though - high %s of those in offices - where peoole could very easily do their work at home. It seems to me bizarre that everybody finds it totally normal for everybody (or at least the majority) to go to and leave work at broadly the same time and sit in huge long tailbacks wasting everybody's time whilst pumping huge amounts of pollution into the atmosphere. It's clearly completely nuts.

It is nuts, but people will always want the freedom of commuting under their own steam I think. The idea of 'carpooling' or 'park and ride' make sense, but sat in your own car at least you can pick your nose, scratch your nuts and sing out loud to your favourite music on the radio.

 

A lot more mature business's are encouraging people to work from home these days and this is the future for me. With new technology and fibre broadband, many 'meetings' can quite easily be done from home over Skype or Google hangout.

[davieG]

18 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

It is nuts, but people will always want the freedom of commuting under their own steam I think. The idea of 'carpooling' or 'park and ride' make sense, but sat in your own car at least you can pick your nose, scratch your nuts and sing out loud to your favourite music on the radio.

 

A lot more mature business's are encouraging people to work from home these days and this is the future for me. With new technology and fibre broadband, many 'meetings' can quite easily be done from home over Skype or Google hangout.

....and if you throw a cup of tea in anger at the bozo who is the only one can't seem to understand the point you're making you only mess up your own place.