Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Webbo]

Quote

 

Ken Livingstone has backed President Maduro and accused an “establishment elite” of playing a part in Venezuela’s economic decline.

The former Labour London mayor, 72, highlighted claims of meddling by the owners of domestic companies and the US to explain why the nation was on the verge of bankruptcy.

President Maduro has claimed victory in a vote, condemned by critics as a sham, for a constituent assembly that is expected to hand his ruling Socialist Party more power.

Opposition politicians boycotted the ballot and millions of Venezuelans shunned the process.

Asked if he supported President Maduro and the nation’s Bolivarian revolution, Mr Livingstone told The Times yesterday: “Oh God, yes.”

 

Before annoucing his bid for the Labour leadership in 2015, Jeremy Corbyn praised the politics of Venezuela as “a cause for celebration”. He has been less forthcoming since.

The country’s economy has shrunk by a third since 2014 and is expected to contract by 12 per cent this year. Shortages of basic items are common.

Mr Livingstone said that Venezuela’s economic malaise stemmed in part from its reliance on its oil reserves which made it vulnerable to the crash in oil prices, but suggested that other factors had also contributed.

“Hugo Chávez did not execute the establishment elite, he allowed them to continue so they’re still there. I think there’s a lot of rumours they’ve been blocking the important food and medicines and things like that because they control a lot of the companies,” he said. “And America has got a long record of undermining any leftwing government as well. So I suspect it’s not all just down to the problems of the [Venezuelan] government.”

In 2006 when he was mayor of London, Mr Livingstone played host to Chávez at an event at City Hall. He struck a deal with Venezuela in which it agreed to provide £16 million of oil each year to Transport for London to fund cheap travel for the UK capital’s poor, in exchange for British expertise in traffic management and urban planning.

Boris Johnson scrapped the oil deal in 2008 and his spokesman called it a “morally bankrupt approach” for one of the globe’s richest cities to accept resources from one of its poorest nations.

On Sunday the US state department said it stood “by the people of Venezuela and their constitutional representatives in their quest to restore their country to a full and prosperous democracy. We will continue to take strong and swift actions against the architects of authoritarianism in Venezuela, including those who participate in the National Constituent Assembly as a result of today’s flawed election.”

Mr Livingstone is under a two-year “administrative suspension” from the Labour Party, set to end in April, after his claim that Hitler had supported Zionism before he “went mad and ended up killing six million Jews” was found to have broken party rules.

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/42d51a88-7631-11e7-b874-f49df312558b

 

Ken Livingstone doesn't seem to care that it's a drug cartel.

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/42d51a88-7631-11e7-b874-f49df312558b

 

Ken Livingstone doesn't seem to care that it's a drug cartel.

I doubt Corbyn does either, I'm sure the regime would still have his full support.

 

Just imagine what they would do if they could get away with it. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Are you embarrassed it's a regime backed by most of the Labour front bench given what has happened? 

The current VP is accused by the US of drig trafficking. The labour leadership supported chavez, not what came after. 

 

I'm really not particularly interested in the issue at all - in the same way that you don't seem interested in the torys supporting saudi arabia when it appears they are funding terrorism.

 

I see absolutely no link between the venezuelan government and the type of socialism corbyn wishes to implement in the uk. Anybody arguing that point is really rather clutching at straws as the venuzuelan government is a million miles from anything that could be implemented in the uk. 

 

I'm interested in the changes that labour want to make in Britain. Not what happens in central america, not what happens in china, Britain.

 

The minute the tories have a response to falling wages, an nhs at breaking point, schools asking for money from parents, record personal debt and a government reducing disability payments at the same time as cutting inheritence taxes, I'll start to listen.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

18 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

I'm no fan of Corbyn or Labour but the constant linking of them to Venezuela is just ridiculous.

 

You can like the Glitter Band, hell you could even buy a ticket and go and watch them.  But that doesn't mean you approve of shagging 9 yr old Vietnemese boys.

 

If we'd have known what the countries would become, we probably would have left Sadam and Gaddafi alone.  

Pretty much the whole old Labour front bench have been seen praising it at some point, they are socialists, Venezuela is a socialist country. Dangerous men.

 

 

Edited 1 August 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said:

Pretty much the whole old Labour front bench have been seen praising it at some point, they are socialists, Venezuela is a socialist country.

 

 

A socialist country that has been taken over by drug traffikers. Do some research. I'm not particularly interested in what happens in venezuela but if you insist on using it as a (bad) example, at least try and find out about what is happening there before doing so. Reading your posts is like reading badly researched daily mail opinion pieces.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

The current VP is accused by the US of drig trafficking. The labour leadership supported chavez, not what came after. 

 

I'm really not particularly interested in the issue at all - in the same way that you don't seem interested in the torys supporting saudi arabia when it appears they are funding terrorism.

 

I see absolutely no link between the venezuelan government and the type of socialism corbyn wishes to implement in the uk. Anybody arguing that point is really rather clutching at straws as the venuzuelan government is a million miles from anything that could be implemented in the uk. 

 

I'm interested in the changes that labour want to make in Britain. Not what happens in central america, not what happens in china, Britain.

 

The minute the tories have a response to falling wages, an nhs at breaking point, schools asking for money from parents, record personal debt and a government reducing disability payments at the same time as cutting inheritence taxes, I'll start to listen.

Socialism is Socialism it doesn't work. Therin lies the problem.

 

Whichever way you look at it Corbyn and McDonnell and  Abbot are hard left socialists this is exactly the kind of socialism they want here they have admitted it!

 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

A socialist country that has been taken over by drug traffikers. Do some research. I'm not particularly interested in what happens in venezuela but if you insist on using it as a (bad) example, at least try and find out about what is happening there before doing so. Reading your posts is like reading badly researched daily mail opinion pieces.

I know exactly what has happened there. You say it has been taken over by drug traffickers because it is shit. Do your research, much of the issues have been caused by the socialist governemnt.

 

Drug traffikers don't just 'take over' the reason they got into power is corruption and the removal of drug agencies by the Socialist president in a Socialist utopia, a man much lauded by our very own Mr Corbyn. Perhaps if the country didn't descend into shit under socialism the drug traffickers would not have gained as much power as they have now, the people there are now looking for a desperate alternative.

 

This is what happens when you allows land seizures, state monopolies, import limitations, anti business policies to occur.

Edited 1 August 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Buce]

8 minutes ago, toddybad said:

A socialist country that has been taken over by drug traffikers. Do some research. I'm not particularly interested in what happens in venezuela but if you insist on using it as a (bad) example, at least try and find out about what is happening there before doing so. Reading your posts is like reading badly researched daily mail opinion pieces.

 

I had started to wonder if he was just a troll, tbh, then decided he just isn't that bright.

Edited 1 August 2017 by Buce

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Are you embarrassed it's a regime backed by most of the Labour front bench given what has happened? 

It's not as if a Conservative leader has ever supported a murderous, South American dicatorship is it?

 

The comparisons are completely daft, Venezuela has the biggest oil reserves in the world ffs, we wouldn't be able to run a country like Chavez did.

[Guest]

Just now, Foxin_mad said:

Socialism is Socialism it doesn't work. Therin lies the problem.

 

Whichever way you look at it Corbyn and McDonnell and  Abbot are hard left socialists this is exactly the kind of socialism they want here they have admitted it!

 

You do talk crap.

China is socialist and flying but that doesn't count does it?

Neo-liberalism is failing ordinary people but thatcher was brilliant so the tories must have it all right, yeah?

To point out the obvious, the uk hasn't had a socialist government since the 1930s. The financial crash of 2008, from which we have patently not recovered (wages and personal debt shows this very clearly) occured under a capitalist neo liberal system. 

You've never lived under a socialist government but yet just parrot glibly that socialism never works. 

If it wasn't for the left you'd have no nhs (the tories voted against its creation).

Every tory election campaign for decades have warned against labour tax rises and economic incompetance yet the tory party have oversee  

worse economic performance and more crashes than labour over the last 100 years. 

I've had a few arguments with webbo and mattp but, although i fundamentally disagree with them, they at least show some intelligence about the arguments they put forward. Alas, I'm struggling to say the same about your blinkered world view which seems to have come from the below the line comments on the daily mail website.

There i go again, being mean, typical lefty scum aren't i?

[Lionator]

Also I'm a bit despondant at the result of this survey.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/poll-says-half-leave-voting-10910796

 

"Half of leave-voting pensioners think Brexit will be worth it even if it costs family members their jobs" - Absolute absurdity, the generation that had it all thrusting uncertainty on their younger family members.

 

So I'm not accused of remain bias, a number of remain voters want Brexit to fail so that they can say 'I told you so' to leave voters, again absolute absurdity. This country is tearing itself apart.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I had started to wonder if he was just a troll, tbh, then decided he just isn't that bright.

Buce......Always here to make a positive non abusive contribution again well done. Lets have your thoughts then Einstein instead of the same old pathetic insults?

 

Kinder caring politics I cant wait till we get more of it.

[Sharpe's Fox]

"We love the poorly educated."

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Lionator said:

It's not as if a Conservative leader has ever supported a murderous, South American dicatorship is it?

 

The comparisons are completely daft, Venezuela has the biggest oil reserves in the world ffs, we wouldn't be able to run a country like Chavez did.

 

Have said the same thing before and was about to say it again now - to say nothing of them supporting a murderous Middle Eastern dictatorship now.

 

But hey, if the ideology is good and resources are flowing what does it matter if a few people get dropped out of helicopters and women have to cover from head to toe, huh?

[Guest MattP]

15 minutes ago, Lionator said:

It's not as if a Conservative leader has ever supported a murderous, South American dicatorship is it?

 

The comparisons are completely daft, Venezuela has the biggest oil reserves in the world ffs, we wouldn't be able to run a country like Chavez did.

At least that dictatorship was helping us out.

 

The second point here shoes how even more tragic the Chavez and Maduro reigns have been.

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Buce......Always here to make a positive non abusive contribution again well done. Lets have your thoughts then Einstein instead of the same old pathetic insults?

 

Kinder caring politics I cant wait till we get more of it.

 

Toddy must have the patience of a saint to even attempt to discuss politics with you.

 

I don't.

 

If you want to avoid being insulted, then I suggest you either stop talking crap or put me on ignore.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

7 minutes ago, Lionator said:

It's not as if a Conservative leader has ever supported a murderous, South American dicatorship is it?

 

The comparisons are completely daft, Venezuela has the biggest oil reserves in the world ffs, we wouldn't be able to run a country like Chavez did.

That's what Corbyn wants. We wouldn't because we would be bankrupt in weeks.

 

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

You do talk crap.

China is socialist and flying but that doesn't count does it?

Neo-liberalism is failing ordinary people but thatcher was brilliant so the tories must have it all right, yeah?

To point out the obvious, the uk hasn't had a socialist government since the 1930s. The financial crash of 2008, from which we have patently not recovered (wages and personal debt shows this very clearly) occured under a capitalist neo liberal system. 

You've never lived under a socialist government but yet just parrot glibly that socialism never works. 

If it wasn't for the left you'd have no nhs (the tories voted against its creation).

Every tory election campaign for decades have warned against labour tax rises and economic incompetance yet the tory party have oversee  

worse economic performance and more crashes than labour over the last 100 years. 

I've had a few arguments with webbo and mattp but, although i fundamentally disagree with them, they at least show some intelligence about the arguments they put forward. Alas, I'm struggling to say the same about your blinkered world view which seems to have come from the below the line comments on the daily mail website.

There i go again, being mean, typical lefty scum aren't i?

 

 

So do you!

 

I have acknowledged previously China is doing well but lets be honest its hardly what we aspire to is it? Really? Now Come On! It is still worse to live there than it is under a toxic Tory racist brexit thick scumbag right twat Britian. If its so great why don't you move there? Wheres the health care, pollution controls, pensions, minimum pay ete etc.

 

Is it failing? Record people in work? growing economy albeit slowly despite brexit, reasonable inflation. Yes there are issues that need to be addressed but we need to look at sustainable ways of doing that, not just getting out the credit cards, or printing more money. People are running up debt buying new SUVs and TVs, perhaps they need to learn to live more sustainably.

 

There is little evidence of a socialist government working in a developed democratic way in the past 50 years, that is absolute fact. We have Social Democracies which is exactly what most of western Europe has a government, either leaning slightly to the left or right.

 

I have never ever said the Tories are great or correct in everything far from it, I just feel they are a safer bet the Corbyn, and I can acknowledge that Labour have done some good things in the past. Labour always increase tax and spend and much of it is very wasteful, I have seen it. They think the solution to everything is more money it is not. Labour often end up leaving office in a mess.

 

Most of your arguments are straight from the Comment is free section on the Guardian.......who cares you are entitled to them, I'm not going to criticise you for it. I think your wrong and Corbyn is dangerous but that's my opinion.

 

I have never called anyone here lefty scum. Some (not you) deserve it though.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

At least that dictatorship was helping us out.

 

The second point here shoes how even more tragic the Chavez and Maduro reigns have been.

 

And that's the yardstick we should use?

[Guest Foxin_mad]

6 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Toddy must have the patience of a saint to even attempt to discuss politics with you.

 

I don't.

 

If you want to avoid being insulted, then I suggest you either stop talking crap or put me on ignore.

If your not going to try to discus politics why don't you read elsewhere in the forum.

 

In your opinion I'm talking crap because you don't like it and you don't agree. You have to accept other opinions exist, Toddy for the most part is capable of putting forward some good discussions even if I completely disagree with them. I'm not seeing that from you its a poor effort to just come in with a tirade of insults.

 

So I am a thick brain-dead trolling tory scumbag twat arse ****wit. Do I care? No because I know its all bollocks, people can sit behind a keyboard and call me what they like that's up to them. It says a lot more about them than it does about me IMO.

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

And that's the yardstick we should use?

Well it makes it more understandable. You put up with more from allies than you do enemies. 

 

I'd take that over the weird relationships we would end up having with Corbyn and Co in charge based on nothing more than his anti American or anti Israeli views.

Edited 1 August 2017 by MattP

[leicsmac]

Just now, MattP said:

Well it makes it more understandable. You put up with more from allies than you do enemies. 

 

I'd take that over the weird relationships we would end up having with Corbyn and Co in charge based on nothing more than his anti American or anti Israeliviews.

Sorry, maybe I lack the patience for realpolitik but IMO if a leader is being brutal they're being brutal, regardless of whether they're helping the UK or not. Saying "that's how the world works" is a cop out.

[Guest MattP]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Sorry, maybe I lack the patience for realpolitik but IMO if a leader is being brutal they're being brutal, regardless of whether they're helping the UK or not. Saying "that's how the world works" is a cop out.

Not really, it is just is how the World works.

 

Maybe one day we'll be in a position where we can turn our back on anyone we disagree with without it having any social or financial consequences on us but until then we shouldn't. 

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

Not really, it is just is how the World works.

 

Maybe one day we'll be in a position where we can turn our back on anyone we disagree with without it having any social or financial consequences on us but until then we shouldn't. 

If we keep thinking that then we'll never reach that point, IMO. It'll always be easier to just accept the world as it is.

 

But in any case, whether it's Corbyn or whoever liking Venezuela or the Tories cosying up to the Saudis now and Pinochet in the past...there's precious little room for finger pointing from either side, really.

[Webbo]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

If we keep thinking that then we'll never reach that point, IMO. It'll always be easier to just accept the world as it is.

 

But in any case, whether it's Corbyn or whoever liking Venezuela or the Tories cosying up to the Saudis now and Pinochet in the past...there's precious little room for finger pointing from either side, really.

Saudis have been our allies for decades, Labour and conservative govts.

[Buce]

20 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

If your not going to try to discus politics why don't you read elsewhere in the forum.

 

In your opinion I'm talking crap because you don't like it and you don't agree. You have to accept other opinions exist, Toddy for the most part is capable of putting forward some good discussions even if I completely disagree with them. I'm not seeing that from you its a poor effort to just come in with a tirade of insults.

 

So I am a thick brain-dead trolling tory scumbag twat arse ****wit. Do I care? No because I know its all bollocks, people can sit behind a keyboard and call me what they like that's up to them. It says a lot more about them than it does about me IMO.

 

Hey, I'm more than happy to say it to your face, boy.