Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Captain...]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Were not in a mess, we haven't left yet and we don't know what the terms of exit will be.

if British consumers start punishing the EU now, we lose the last bargaining chip, what we buy. Troll obvious.

Not trolling, being playful, but with a serious point, if we want to make a success of Brexit (I would rather we just abandoned the whole idea, but we can try and make it less of a disaster)  then we should be buying British at every opportunity (we should have done that years ago to be fair). Support British producers, British manufacturers and British companies, actually look at what we buy, who we buy it from and stop allowing our weak British pounds to be syphoned off abroad, to the detriment of our economy and public purse.

[Guest MattP]

Just now, leicsmac said:

As was said yesterday, if you think Trump cares about anything other than pandering to his own voter base - which means a deal that is overwhelmingly US favoured - then you haven't been paying attention.

 

In any case, he's got other things to worry about right now - like his son in law being hauled up in front of a Senate committee.

Well if it we don't like it we don't have to take it do we? You make it sound like we do.

 

No better time to do a deal though, he'll need something to show he's not as protectionist as he's being made out, he's an anglophile who is hostile towards the EU and his administration has it's eye on other things, plus we have a trade minister who is said to have numerous contacts and goodwill within the Republican party.

 

Whatever the situation, how wonderful to see us actually talking about doing this rather than being told we are "at the back of the queue" if we don't vote the way Obama wants us to do so.

 

Bit of positivity maybe? Anyone?

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Just now, Captain... said:

Not trolling, being playful, but with a serious point, if we want to make a success of Brexit (I would rather we just abandoned the whole idea, but we can try and make it less of a disaster)  then we should be buying British at every opportunity (we should have done that years ago to be fair). Support British producers, British manufacturers and British companies, actually look at what we buy, who we buy it from and stop allowing our weak British pounds to be syphoned off abroad, to the detriment of our economy and public purse.

So true. Unfortunately most British people will buy whatever is the cheapest no matter where it comes from.

 

I'm willing to pay more for Local, quality produce but many would rather go to Iceland and have their South American Beef Burgers for £1.

 

This is why most of our manufacturing has been lost, people were/are not interested in  quality, price is the deciding factor.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Not trolling, being playful, but with a serious point, if we want to make a success of Brexit (I would rather we just abandoned the whole idea, but we can try and make it less of a disaster)  then we should be buying British at every opportunity (we should have done that years ago to be fair). Support British producers, British manufacturers and British companies, actually look at what we buy, who we buy it from and stop allowing our weak British pounds to be syphoned off abroad, to the detriment of our economy and public purse.

If we stop buying EU products before negotiations are complete that weakens our hand. It's pretty obvious.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

11 minutes ago, Captain... said:

 

 

We've already seen some of the demands countries will make to get a trade deal.

Like the EU? Freedom of movement of unskilled African men invited by Merkle?

 

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

As was said yesterday, if you think Trump cares about anything other than pandering to his own voter base - which means a deal that is overwhelmingly US favoured - then you haven't been paying attention.

 

In any case, he's got other things to worry about right now - like his son in law being hauled up in front of a Senate committee.

Same goes for the EU, they are only interested in their own agenda and protecting their bizarre setup! Many of the ideals of the European Union just don't work, free trade is a success, freedom of movement throughout areas with vast wealth and economic differences is a bad idea! single currency controlled by a German central bank is a bad idea. Even Marcron is trying to reform it, will he succeed where Cameron failed?

[Guest Foxin_mad]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

Well if it we don't like it we don't have to take it do we? You make it sound like we do.

 

No better time to do a deal though, he'll need something to show he's not as protectionist as he's being made out, he's an anglophile who is hostile towards the EU and his administration has it's eye on other things, plus we have a trade minister who is said to have numerous contacts and goodwill within the Republican party.

 

Whatever the situation, how wonderful to see us actually talking about doing this rather than being told we are "at the back of the queue" if we don't vote the way Obama wants us to do so.

 

Bit of positivity maybe? Anyone?

No no no we need another negative Guardian Headline!

 

"Chlorinated Chickens to Invade British Supermarkets" www.guardian.co.uk/another-load-of-hyperbolic-bollocks-vote-labour-tory-scum

[Captain...]

15 minutes ago, Strokes said:

If we stop buying EU products before negotiations are complete that weakens our hand. It's pretty obvious.

We're not going to stop outright, but if we made a dent into the imports whilst filling the coffers of our local producers we would make a difference and perhaps even just give the EU something to think about...

[LiberalFox]

If you want to support petty nationalism and get ripped off then by all means buy British. 

[Guest MattP]

5 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

If you want to support petty nationalism and get ripped off then by all means buy British. 

What about if you just want to do it to support your local businesses? Is that petty nationalism?

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Not me, I buy what I fancy on a day to day basis. If the deal concludes badly and the EU don't give way, I will boycott everything that comes from that way.

 

Will you boo Schmeichel, Fuchs, Huth and Iborra?  

[LiberalFox]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

What about if you just want to do it to support your local businesses? Is that petty nationalism?

 

I'd call it personal choice. 

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Will you boo Schmeichel, Fuchs, Huth and Iborra?  

Whilst sat on my made in Poland sofa? Absolutely  

[leicsmac]

40 minutes ago, MattP said:

Well if it we don't like it we don't have to take it do we? You make it sound like we do.

 

No better time to do a deal though, he'll need something to show he's not as protectionist as he's being made out, he's an anglophile who is hostile towards the EU and his administration has it's eye on other things, plus we have a trade minister who is said to have numerous contacts and goodwill within the Republican party.

 

Whatever the situation, how wonderful to see us actually talking about doing this rather than being told we are "at the back of the queue" if we don't vote the way Obama wants us to do so.

 

Bit of positivity maybe? Anyone?

True, we don't have to accept a deal with them, or with the EU for that matter.

 

What Trump says and what his administration have planned are two entirely different things regarding this - purely because, as I said, he can't piss off his voter base, especially with things as shaky as they are - and I'd take the honesty of Obama over that kind of deception any day of the week.

 

Also, given his policy on various matters, do we really want to be seen maintaining the special relationship in that way? I guess so...it's not like we've rubbed shoulders with worse in the past and present after all.

 

33 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

 

Same goes for the EU, they are only interested in their own agenda and protecting their bizarre setup! Many of the ideals of the European Union just don't work, free trade is a success, freedom of movement throughout areas with vast wealth and economic differences is a bad idea! single currency controlled by a German central bank is a bad idea. Even Marcron is trying to reform it, will he succeed where Cameron failed?

It is almost certain that the EU are as self interested when it comes to this matter as the US.

 

However I would still rather deal with them than the current US administration because I honestly think they have more to offer and are far more palatable socially.

[Guest MattP]

Just now, leicsmac said:

True, we don't have to accept a deal with them, or with the EU for that matter.

 

What Trump says and what his administration have planned are two entirely different things regarding this - purely because, as I said, he can't piss off his voter base, especially with things as shaky as they are - and I'd take the honesty of Obama over that kind of deception any day of the week.

I doubt his voter base will be taking too much notice of the finer points of a trade deal if I'm being honest.

 

Obama's honesty? The day after the referendum he went back on it, refused to use the same words and effectively told us Cameron had asked him to say it, the only US politician at the time who we can say was being honest at this point in time was Donald Trump - let's hope that's continues.

 

A trade deal can be mutally beneficial. Why people have to obsess with one side getting the upper hand is strange, you get the feeling some want it to fail.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

I doubt his voter base will be taking too much notice of the finer points of a trade deal if I'm being honest.

 

Obama's honesty? The day after the referendum he went back on it, refused to use the same words and effectively told us Cameron had asked him to say it, the only US politician at the time who we can say was being honest at this point in time was Donald Trump - let's hope that's continues.

 

A trade deal can be mutally beneficial. Why people have to obsess with one side getting the upper hand is strange, you get the feeling some want it to fail.

When that trade deal starts taking jobs from them (or stops making new ones) or starts costing them money in one way or another...they might start to care. Remember it was those same economic concerns that were a large part of him winning in the first place - something I didn't take as much notice of as I should have done.

 

Of course, the administration is totally aware of this.

 

That Obama said the referendum could be damaging to US-UK trade relations was honest, whether Cameron told him to say it or not IMO - though of course only time will tell on that. And again, if you think Trump is being honest about this, I've got a fine bridge to sell you.

 

Trump is under way too much pressure to make concessions in a trade deal with the UK that might impact his voter base, as said above - that is exactly why it is thought such a deal might be lopsided. Regardless of talk, Trump came to power on a platform of nationalism and the idea of "America First"  - and that means any deal must be seen to be in their favour.

Edited 25 July 2017 by leicsmac

[Guest Foxin_mad]

10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

True, we don't have to accept a deal with them, or with the EU for that matter.

 

What Trump says and what his administration have planned are two entirely different things regarding this - purely because, as I said, he can't piss off his voter base, especially with things as shaky as they are - and I'd take the honesty of Obama over that kind of deception any day of the week.

 

Also, given his policy on various matters, do we really want to be seen maintaining the special relationship in that way? I guess so...it's not like we've rubbed shoulders with worse in the past and present after all.

 

It is almost certain that the EU are as self interested when it comes to this matter as the US.

 

However I would still rather deal with them than the current US administration because I honestly think they have more to offer and are far more palatable socially.

I'm not so sure. I originally voted remain but to be honest the EUs attitude is pretty bad. They are an unaccountable outdated organisation and they need reform, they need to be more flexible.  One size doesn't fit all.

[leicsmac]

Just now, Foxin_mad said:

I'm not so sure. I originally voted remain but to be honest the EUs attitude is pretty bad. They are an unaccountable outdated organisation and they need reform, they need to be more flexible.  One size doesn't fit all.

I certainly agree that dialogue and likely reform are needed. Again though, I think we'd get a better deal from them - but I have nothing more than a hunch on that.

[Captain...]

15 minutes ago, MattP said:

A trade deal can be mutally beneficial. Why people have to obsess with one side getting the upper hand is strange, you get the feeling some want it to fail.

Like the one we have with the EU...

 

It isn't an obsession it is reality, we have seen why trade deals with the EU and US have failed and what other countries want from a trade deal with us.

 

Do you honestly think that Trump would accept anything that wouldn't look like a win for the US? He is an aggressive self aggrandising business man. He is bigging himself up and over playing his role in Brexit to give himself the upper hand in negotiations. He knows that these public statements then put pressure on the UK to do a quick deal and he will try and back us into a corner on this trade deal that he will try to dictate the terms of.

[Guest MattP]

18 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

When that trade deal starts taking jobs from them (or stops making new ones) or starts costing them money in one way or another...they might start to care. Remember it was those same economic concerns that were a large part of him winning in the first place - something I didn't take as much notice of as I should have done.

 

Of course, the administration is totally aware of this.

 

That Obama said the referendum could be damaging to US-UK trade relations was honest, whether Cameron told him to say it or not IMO - though of course only time will tell on that. And again, if you think Trump is being honest about this, I've got a fine bridge to sell you.

 

Trump is under way too much pressure to make concessions in a trade deal with the UK that might impact his voter base, as said above - that is exactly why it is thought such a deal might be lopsided. Regardless of talk, Trump came to power on a platform of nationalism and the idea of "America First"  - and that means any deal must be seen to be in their favour.

I doubt much of the stuff we are selling to the US was putting Pennsylvanian steel workers out of business. I'm sure any FTD would also make sure we had certain restrictions on anything that could damage job prospects on either side of the Atlantic. 

 

At the minute, what Trump has said is looking honest and what Obama said we already know to be nonsense, you've been far too kind to Barack if you only suggest he said there would be damage to UK-US trade - far too kind. Let's be quite frank, he tried to bully us under threats and coercion. 

 

Any deal can be seen in their favour, ask any negotiator and they'll tell you that's exactly what you want the opposing side to think, whether it actually is or not is what you should be bothered about.

 

People again are playing both sides of the fence here, one minute they are telling us him and his team are so stupid that they shouldn't run a gas station then the next minute they are so clever they are going to manipulate our best trade negotiators. You can't keep having it both ways.

Edited 25 July 2017 by MattP

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Like the one we have with the EU...

Yep it was a great idea the common market. 

 

Such a shame they had to ruin it by deciding to move towards a European political Union under a central jurisdiction. 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

I doubt much of the stuff we are selling to the US was putting Pennsylvanian steel workers out of business. I'm sure any FTD would also make sure we had certain restrictions on anything that could damage job prospects on either side of the Atlantic. 

 

At the minute, what Trump has said is looking honest and what Obama said we already know to be nonsense, you've been far too kind to Barack if you only suggest he said their would be damage to UK-US trade - far too kind. Let's be quite frank, he tried to bully us under threats and coercion. 

 

Any deal can be seen in their favour, ask any negotiator and they'll tell you that's exactly what you want the opposing side to think, whether it actually is or not is what you should be bothered about.

 

People again are playing both sides of the fence here, one minute they are telling us him and his team are so stupid that they shouldn't run a gas station then the next minute they are clever they are going to manipulate our best trade negotiators. You can't keep having it both ways.

Such things are no doubt complicated, and any trade deal has, I think, potential to affect workers in countries it is made with - of course, restrictions can be put in place when a deal is made but then you come back to the point that such a deal would be very much US favoured.

 

I'm sure that what Trump is saying does sound honest - if and when the time comes that we make such a deal, we'll find out how honest it is.

 

People can use both lines regarding the current US administration because both are on their own way true - Trump and some of his cabinet may be blustering and politically naive, but behind him and within his administration lie very smart, very calculating people whose only motivation is their own self interest and that of the part of the American populace they favour. Bush had his Wolfowitz, remember.

[Guest]

Senior EU figures have have hit back at Liam Fox’s “ignorant and indigestible” claim that lowering UK food standards to allow the import of chlorinated chicken from the US is an insignificant detail.

Fox accused the media on Monday of being obsessed with concerns about chlorine-washed chicken being sold in Britain as part of a potential trade deal with the US after Brexit.

During his visit to Washington, he suggested it was a minor matter, which would be settled at the end of lengthy talks, adding that “Americans have been eating it perfectly safely for years”.

In Brussels, his comments were met with withering contempt from officials and politicians alike, who accused Fox of failing to understand the implications should the UK lower its standards compared with the EU, where chlorinated chicken is banned.

Gianni Pittella, leader of the socialist group in the European parliament, said: “I’m sure British citizens will be enthusiastic to go from the EU high standard control over chicken and food to the chlorinated, full of hormones, US chicken.

“It is just a further indigestible gift from Tories and their Brexit. Luckily for British citizens, UK won’t be allowed to strike new free trade agreements as long as the Brexit process has not reached a conclusion.”

Pittella added: “This news reinforces why the EU will eventually need to have checks and controls on goods coming from the UK. We won’t accept a race to the bottom on standards.”

A EU senior official said Brussels had been surprised by the lack of knowledge shown by senior British politicians in their approach to the negotiations.

He added that while the UK was likely to avoid tariffs on many goods under any free trade deal with the EU, the apparent openness of London to lower standards below those of the bloc would significantly hinder trade in the future.

“If we look at goods the most important thing about is not tariffs, it is all the rules around it,” the official said. “That is why we invented the single market which is about having one set of rules instead of 28 set of rules. Tariffs in a way are not that difficult. I think we will fund a way of avoiding tariffs in the future.

“When the stated aim is to make your own laws, not have the same controls, then we need to have checks. Then any good that travels from one market to another will have to undergo checks to see that it is legal to go on the market.”

The official added that the Republic of Ireland would in particular lament the Fox’s comments, given the implications for talks on a future border with Northern Ireland. He also echoed the comments of the British poultry industry, which is concerned about being undercut in the UK by cheaper chlorinated-washed chicken.

The official said: “If the UK were successful in gaining a free trade agreement with America, and that is the only area where there is a comparative advantage for the UK, given agriculture is the EU’s main defensive interest, then there will be problems.

“It will eliminate sections of the agriculture industry in the UK but the British government seem to be happy with that. But it will also create particular problems with Northern Ireland.

“The Irish won’t be happy about chlorinated chicken crossing the border which is said to be northern Irish chicken. So there will have to be a border. It has been surprising to see how poor the understanding has been in the UK debate.”

The row came as the the European parliament’s Brexit coordinator, Guy Verhofstadt, ruled out any weakening on the EU’s demands on citizens’ rights after a briefing about last week’s Brexit negotiations from Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator. Verhofstadt also called on Britain to hurry up in providing an outline of its position the UK’s divorce bill.

He said: “The

European parliament will remain vigilant regarding citizens’ rights and will continue to push for full rights for EU citizens in the UK as well as UK citizens in the EU.”

No 10 has repeatedly declined to answer questions about whether it could lift the ban on chlorine-washed chicken or guarantee there would be no reduction in food standards after Britain leaves the EU.

Theresa May’s spokesman has said that maintaining safety and public confidence in food was of the highest priority, but that it was too early to get into the specifics and “hypotheticals” of any deal.

Washing poultry in chlorine is banned in the EU, as it is claimed the practice could lead to worsening of food standards because unscrupulous producers may be tempted to use it to make meat appear fresher than it is.

[Guest]

Not sure where best to put this. Just found it interesting. 

 

Google enters race for nuclear fusion technology

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/25/google-enters-race-for-nuclear-fusion-technology?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Not sure where best to put this. Just found it interesting. 

 

Google enters race for nuclear fusion technology

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/25/google-enters-race-for-nuclear-fusion-technology?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Perhaps we need a general science stuff thread.

 

In any case, interesting. Fusion may well be the only way that we solve increasing energy demand without causing catastrophic damage...but it's proven very elusive so far.

[Strokes]

31 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Senior EU figures have have hit back at Liam Fox’s “ignorant and indigestible” claim that lowering UK food standards to allow the import of chlorinated chicken from the US is an insignificant detail.

Fox accused the media on Monday of being obsessed with concerns about chlorine-washed chicken being sold in Britain as part of a potential trade deal with the US after Brexit.

During his visit to Washington, he suggested it was a minor matter, which would be settled at the end of lengthy talks, adding that “Americans have been eating it perfectly safely for years”.

In Brussels, his comments were met with withering contempt from officials and politicians alike, who accused Fox of failing to understand the implications should the UK lower its standards compared with the EU, where chlorinated chicken is banned.

Gianni Pittella, leader of the socialist group in the European parliament, said: “I’m sure British citizens will be enthusiastic to go from the EU high standard control over chicken and food to the chlorinated, full of hormones, US chicken.

“It is just a further indigestible gift from Tories and their Brexit. Luckily for British citizens, UK won’t be allowed to strike new free trade agreements as long as the Brexit process has not reached a conclusion.”

Pittella added: “This news reinforces why the EU will eventually need to have checks and controls on goods coming from the UK. We won’t accept a race to the bottom on standards.”

A EU senior official said Brussels had been surprised by the lack of knowledge shown by senior British politicians in their approach to the negotiations.

He added that while the UK was likely to avoid tariffs on many goods under any free trade deal with the EU, the apparent openness of London to lower standards below those of the bloc would significantly hinder trade in the future.

“If we look at goods the most important thing about is not tariffs, it is all the rules around it,” the official said. “That is why we invented the single market which is about having one set of rules instead of 28 set of rules. Tariffs in a way are not that difficult. I think we will fund a way of avoiding tariffs in the future.

“When the stated aim is to make your own laws, not have the same controls, then we need to have checks. Then any good that travels from one market to another will have to undergo checks to see that it is legal to go on the market.”

The official added that the Republic of Ireland would in particular lament the Fox’s comments, given the implications for talks on a future border with Northern Ireland. He also echoed the comments of the British poultry industry, which is concerned about being undercut in the UK by cheaper chlorinated-washed chicken.

The official said: “If the UK were successful in gaining a free trade agreement with America, and that is the only area where there is a comparative advantage for the UK, given agriculture is the EU’s main defensive interest, then there will be problems.

“It will eliminate sections of the agriculture industry in the UK but the British government seem to be happy with that. But it will also create particular problems with Northern Ireland.

“The Irish won’t be happy about chlorinated chicken crossing the border which is said to be northern Irish chicken. So there will have to be a border. It has been surprising to see how poor the understanding has been in the UK debate.”

The row came as the the European parliament’s Brexit coordinator, Guy Verhofstadt, ruled out any weakening on the EU’s demands on citizens’ rights after a briefing about last week’s Brexit negotiations from Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator. Verhofstadt also called on Britain to hurry up in providing an outline of its position the UK’s divorce bill.

He said: “The

European parliament will remain vigilant regarding citizens’ rights and will continue to push for full rights for EU citizens in the UK as well as UK citizens in the EU.”

No 10 has repeatedly declined to answer questions about whether it could lift the ban on chlorine-washed chicken or guarantee there would be no reduction in food standards after Britain leaves the EU.

Theresa May’s spokesman has said that maintaining safety and public confidence in food was of the highest priority, but that it was too early to get into the specifics and “hypotheticals” of any deal.

Washing poultry in chlorine is banned in the EU, as it is claimed the practice could lead to worsening of food standards because unscrupulous producers may be tempted to use it to make meat appear fresher than it is.

They sound rattled, good.