Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest MattP]

I miss Godfrey Bloom

[Steven]

5 minutes ago, Captain... said:

This is the most interesting bit in the article, (I assume it is find, not fund) if they are positive of finding a way of avoiding tariffs then all of a sudden a lot of Bremainers fears of economic instability disappear, the other bit I found interesting was...

 

It seems that a free trade deal is very much on the cards, but our crack negotiating team and Trump's tweets are doing their best to scupper it. Right now we should be focussing on the terms of the trade deal with the EU and not courting deals with the US and NZ.

 

It doesn't sound like they are rattled, they are just putting out the facts, if we maintain the same food safety standards as  the EU then there will be no need for border checks and controls, if we are going to lower our standards to court Trump and the US then they will be forced to put customs checks in place.

 

Reading that it seems like there is a chance for a huge positive to come out of Brexit, allay the fears of industry and economic experts. I would love to be  proved wrong, but this Government seems so incompetent and ill prepared for this.

I want poor animal husbandry standards and chlorine in my chicken dammit.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

The left call the right names and it's truly dreadful.

The right cause schools to reduce teaching provision, the nhs to ration healthcare, food banks to be used across Britain and life expectancy to fall and it's to be celebrated.

Get a grip Fox, it's a forum full of football fans.

I have not seen any right or centre people calling names like the left do.

 

The right don't cause any of that, bad management does. Public services in the UK are well enough funded to function, we can  not make money. If the frontline is being cut blame the management and consultants sitting in councils and hospitals up and down the country on salaries in excess of £200000 a year. Why does and NHS trust need a media relations team, and community development co-ordination department - answers on a postcard.

 

Again I question peoples budgeting if they are suing food banks, its down to priorities I bet some people have a large TV and an iPhone. On the minimum wage outside London it should be possible to support a single person.

 

There is no falling in life expectancy, it has decreased the rate at which it is increasing to be correct.

 

1 hour ago, David Guiza said:

Not entirely sure that you can get on your high horse when after being insulted you accuse an entire group of people of being exactly the same. This 'all the left are PC wankerz, throwing their toys out of the pram whenever they find something that they disagree with' and 'all the right are Tory scumbags who want austerity for anybody without a title before their name' is exactly the way that modern politics is going. Spending millions of pounds on a campaign of smear against opposition rather than calling them out on said disagreement and highlighting the opportunity for implementing positive change and reform. It's always been in existence, but I feel as though playground politics will be a stain on this generation. 

 

 

Also, whilst I get your sentiment, and understand that this goes against what I've just said above, all I could picture when reading your reply as this  :-

 

I never said anyone was a willy puller and never would, whether you think being PC is an insult or not is debateable. Calling someone mentally disabled because they have different views is pretty disgusting really, but it seems acceptable for the left.

 

My experience of the left this seems to be exactly the case, they just resort to name calling when they don't like something, yet they claim to be the most empathetic caring bunch on the planet. Im not really seeing evidence otherwise but I am happy to be enlightened. There were signs up and down the country defaced with 'Tory scum' etc and I have been called all sorts by supposed Labour voting friends. Momentum has had a real bad effect on politics, all this tribe mentality is shocking, threats made against moderates the same happened with the SNP in Scotland when you are going to extremes and Labour are extreme left this is what you gate, the extreme left are as hate filled as the far right, its just they have different objects of hate and like to pretend they love all.

 

[leicsmac]

35 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I have not seen any right or centre people calling names like the left do.

 

The right don't cause any of that, bad management does. Public services in the UK are well enough funded to function, we can  not make money. If the frontline is being cut blame the management and consultants sitting in councils and hospitals up and down the country on salaries in excess of £200000 a year. Why does and NHS trust need a media relations team, and community development co-ordination department - answers on a postcard.

 

Again I question peoples budgeting if they are suing food banks, its down to priorities I bet some people have a large TV and an iPhone. On the minimum wage outside London it should be possible to support a single person.

 

There is no falling in life expectancy, it has decreased the rate at which it is increasing to be correct.

 

I never said anyone was a willy puller and never would, whether you think being PC is an insult or not is debateable. Calling someone mentally disabled because they have different views is pretty disgusting really, but it seems acceptable for the left.

 

My experience of the left this seems to be exactly the case, they just resort to name calling when they don't like something, yet they claim to be the most empathetic caring bunch on the planet. Im not really seeing evidence otherwise but I am happy to be enlightened. There were signs up and down the country defaced with 'Tory scum' etc and I have been called all sorts by supposed Labour voting friends. Momentum has had a real bad effect on politics, all this tribe mentality is shocking, threats made against moderates the same happened with the SNP in Scotland when you are going to extremes and Labour are extreme left this is what you gate, the extreme left are as hate filled as the far right, its just they have different objects of hate and like to pretend they love all.

 

Have a look at Breitbart and various areas of Reddit (like r/thedonald and r/redpill) and you'll find plenty of right wing slurs to go around. "Liberalism is a mental disorder" being the tamest.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Have a look at Breitbart and various areas of Reddit (like r/thedonald and r/redpill) and you'll find plenty of right wing slurs to go around. "Liberalism is a mental disorder" being the tamest.

I'm sure there are plenty online. Certainly in the UK the momentum driven Labour party seems to attract some particular individuals I have never seen in mainstream politics before. There has always been a place but the hate is become more prevalent. As a general rule, there are not Tories going around defacing Labour placards and haranguing supporters of the party.

 

I agree there are idiots from the extremes of both. I don't find name calling a particularly helpful exercise.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 hours ago, Captain... said:

 

 

Reading that it seems like there is a chance for a huge positive to come out of Brexit, allay the fears of industry and economic experts. I would love to be  proved wrong, but this Government seems so incompetent and ill prepared for this.

Not so much 'this government' but the whole of politics in the UK. What exactly is the Policy of Labour?

 

I have only heard sound bites 'Jobs First' etc

 

Corbyn and McDonnell have both confirmed they will leave the single market, but Keir Stammer thinks otherwise. What exactly is their position? Do they have one?

 

The problem is politics underestimated the will of the British People, Europe underestimated them too. No one had a plan for this as they didn't expect it to happen.

 

Cameron thought he would get a deal, but Europe refused to give an inch. Then Merkel decided to let millions of most African potentially jihadi men into Europe and gave a shout out from millions more to come. The vote was sealed by Europe's incompetence in dealing properly with key matters, of course fools like Junker and Guy Verhofstadt continue to bury their head in the sand.

 

 

Edited 26 July 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Carl the Llama]

23 hours ago, toddybad said:

For me the issue is the unknown. History shows humanity believing it is solving problems only to cause unintended health problems. Mercury poisoned rivers, lead pipes, diesel use, asbestos etc. Gm tech is impressive but i am concerned that it's been taken up so quickly and any unintended and currently unseen consequences may only  ecome obvious later. Again, it's about choice. Should be clearly labelled and not allowed in school, hospital meals etc. Ultimately gm crops will be used in cheaper foods for the poor who are always the guinea pigs.

GM crops have been around for decades, certainly long enough for scientists to have a proper look at the processes and their effects yet I'm not aware of any credible scientific study showing a potential link between GM crops and an increased likelihood of developing nasty side effects like cancer.  Indeed having had the time to perform peer-reviewed studies the scientific community is at climate change levels of consensus that it's no more deleterious to one's health than regular food.

 

22 hours ago, Webbo said:

Selective breeding is different from genetic modification. Yes you can breed 2 different cows to get a cow that produces more milk or beef but that's different to taking a gene from a fish and putting it in a tomato.

 

They're making insect resistant crops, but without insects what do the birds eat?  You're destroying the food chain .There are also questions of cross pollination with non GM crops in neighbouring fields , corporations who own the patent on seeds, meaning farmers can't grow their own seed. It's messing with nature and that never ends well.

Welcome to the crazy conspiracy brigade, I never had you down as a pot-smoking hippy environmentalist  

 

Selective breeding is different in technique, not so much in outcome, it just takes a lot longer to achieve the same results.

 

As for insect-resistance:  The same insects would be killed in a non-gm field with pesticides anyway so if your butterfly effect theory that defensive farming practices which leave the planet short of a few fruit flies are going to usher in a global food-chain collapse had any scientific merit to it, well, we'd have destroyed the food chain decades before we even figured GM out. 

 

I don't know enough of the science about your cross pollination point to feel comfortable addressing it, though I would be happy to give it more consideration if you want to elaborate on the problems it raises.

 

Lastly, the big business bullying side of things is as seedy (pun intended) as any major industry and while unethical business practices are most certainly a problem to be solved and I fully encourage doing so, holding it up as a reason to mistrust the benefits of the industry is myopic in the extreme. 

 

 

Before raising any further issues I suggest you both (and anyone else interested) read this Popular Science article on the matter.

[Strokes]

20 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

GM crops have been around for decades, certainly long enough for scientists to have a proper look at the processes and their effects yet I'm not aware of any credible scientific study showing a potential link between GM crops and an increased likelihood of developing nasty side effects like cancer.  Indeed having had the time to perform peer-reviewed studies the scientific community is at climate change levels of consensus that it's no more deleterious to one's health than regular food.

 

Welcome to the crazy conspiracy brigade, I never had you down as a pot-smoking hippy environmentalist  

 

Selective breeding is different in technique, not so much in outcome, it just takes a lot longer to achieve the same results.

 

As for insect-resistance:  The same insects would be killed in a non-gm field with pesticides anyway so if your butterfly effect theory that defensive farming practices which leave the planet short of a few fruit flies are going to usher in a global food-chain collapse had any scientific merit to it, well, we'd have destroyed the food chain decades before we even figured GM out. 

 

I don't know enough of the science about your cross pollination point to feel comfortable addressing it, though I would be happy to give it more consideration if you want to elaborate on the problems it raises.

 

Lastly, the big business bullying side of things is as seedy (pun intended) as any major industry and while unethical business practices are most certainly a problem to be solved and I fully encourage doing so, holding it up as a reason to mistrust the benefits of the industry is myopic in the extreme. 

 

 

Before raising any further issues I suggest you both (and anyone else interested) read this Popular Science article on the matter.

[Buce]

On ‎25‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 14:33, Foxin_mad said:

I would expect nothing more from the dishonest bunch that call themselves the Liebour party. The more and more stuff I see I hope Vince Cable picks up quite a few votes and people educate themselves on the lies of Corbyn and co. I have never seen a more dishonest bunch so desperate to get into power.

 

On ‎25‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 14:53, Foxin_mad said:

No no no we need another negative Guardian Headline!

 

"Chlorinated Chickens to Invade British Supermarkets" www.guardian.co.uk/another-load-of-hyperbolic-bollocks-vote-labour-tory-scum

 

4 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

I have not seen any right or centre people calling names like the left do.

 

The right don't cause any of that, bad management does. Public services in the UK are well enough funded to function, we can  not make money. If the frontline is being cut blame the management and consultants sitting in councils and hospitals up and down the country on salaries in excess of £200000 a year. Why does and NHS trust need a media relations team, and community development co-ordination department - answers on a postcard.

 

Again I question peoples budgeting if they are suing food banks, its down to priorities I bet some people have a large TV and an iPhone. On the minimum wage outside London it should be possible to support a single person.

 

There is no falling in life expectancy, it has decreased the rate at which it is increasing to be correct.

 

I never said anyone was a willy puller and never would, whether you think being PC is an insult or not is debateable. Calling someone mentally disabled because they have different views is pretty disgusting really, but it seems acceptable for the left.

 

My experience of the left this seems to be exactly the case, they just resort to name calling when they don't like something, yet they claim to be the most empathetic caring bunch on the planet. Im not really seeing evidence otherwise but I am happy to be enlightened. There were signs up and down the country defaced with 'Tory scum' etc and I have been called all sorts by supposed Labour voting friends. Momentum has had a real bad effect on politics, all this tribe mentality is shocking, threats made against moderates the same happened with the SNP in Scotland when you are going to extremes and Labour are extreme left this is what you gate, the extreme left are as hate filled as the far right, its just they have different objects of hate and like to pretend they love all.

 

 

[Charl91]

5 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

I have not seen any right or centre people calling names like the left do.

 

My experience of the left this seems to be exactly the case, they just resort to name calling when they don't like something, yet they claim to be the most empathetic caring bunch on the planet. 

 

all this tribe mentality is shocking

 

 

 You have the self-awareness of a lemon.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Charl91 said:

 

 You have the self-awareness of a lemon.

Don't be so bitter .

[Charl91]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Don't be so bitter .

I hope I haven't soured the tone of this conversation.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Charl91 said:

I hope I haven't soured the tone of this conversation.

Well it definitely isn't as sharp and zingy as it was.

[Carl the Llama]

Are we sure foxin isn't just another moose account?

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Are we sure foxin isn't just another moose account?

Moose was massively anti brexit, and I don't think foxin is bating. So I don't think so tbh.

[Guest]

Worried that MattP might not end up thinking Corbyn is his perfect bedfellow

 

Andrew Gwynne, the shadow communities secretary and Labour’s campaign coordinator, has hinted that Labour may shift its stance on Brexit. Critics have argued that, with Labour committed to taking the UK out of the single market, it is currently advocating a hardish Brexit very similar to that backed by Theresa May.

Speaking at an event in London, Gywnne said:

We recognise that the country voted to leave. Whether public opinion shifts in the course of the next couple of years will be interesting to see.

And I think once the reality of what Brexit is going to look like becomes more apparent, it may well be that the political situation changes sufficiently that the Labour Party’s nuanced position might also have more flexibility.

[Webbo]

13 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Worried that MattP might not end up thinking Corbyn is his perfect bedfellow

 

Andrew Gwynne, the shadow communities secretary and Labour’s campaign coordinator, has hinted that Labour may shift its stance on Brexit. Critics have argued that, with Labour committed to taking the UK out of the single market, it is currently advocating a hardish Brexit very similar to that backed by Theresa May.

Speaking at an event in London, Gywnne said:

We recognise that the country voted to leave. Whether public opinion shifts in the course of the next couple of years will be interesting to see.

And I think once the reality of what Brexit is going to look like becomes more apparent, it may well be that the political situation changes sufficiently that the Labour Party’s nuanced position might also have more flexibility.

Principled.

[Guest]

Better than wrong 

[Guest]

I wouldn't care which party were in charge it's an absolute disgrace that the government are not doing more NOW to stop the estimated 50,000 deaths a year caused by polluted air.

 

Government's air quality plan branded inadequate by city leaders

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/26/governments-air-quality-plan-is-cynical-headline-grabbing-say-critics?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[Webbo]

8 hours ago, toddybad said:

Better than wrong 

So are they wrong now or will they be wrong if public opinion changes?

[Guest MattP]

9 hours ago, toddybad said:

Worried that MattP might not end up thinking Corbyn is his perfect bedfellow

 

Andrew Gwynne, the shadow communities secretary and Labour’s campaign coordinator, has hinted that Labour may shift its stance on Brexit. Critics have argued that, with Labour committed to taking the UK out of the single market, it is currently advocating a hardish Brexit very similar to that backed by Theresa May.

Speaking at an event in London, Gywnne said:

We recognise that the country voted to leave. Whether public opinion shifts in the course of the next couple of years will be interesting to see.

And I think once the reality of what Brexit is going to look like becomes more apparent, it may well be that the political situation changes sufficiently that the Labour Party’s nuanced position might also have more flexibility.

 

We might change our opinion if the public does. Real potential party of government this.

 

Won't happen on Corbyn's watch anyway, his record is solid as a rock, campaigned against CM, voted against Lisbon treaty, votes against Maastric treaty, as solid a Brexiteer as you'll get.

[Guest MattP]

13 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Are we sure foxin isn't just another moose account?

Nah, as Stokes said Moose was the probably the most pro-remain poster on the forum. He was the ultimate capitalist. 

[Guest MattP]

Labour minister Barry Gardner on why we have to not only the single market but also the customs union.

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/24/leaving-eu-single-market-customs-union-brexit-britain-europe

[Guest Foxin_mad]

16 hours ago, Buce said:

 

 

 

So I called the Labour party a bunch of liars, which they are (pay off all student loans, no more boom and bust). So what?

 

And the Guardian a shit hyperbolic wannabe tabloid. So what?

 

I don't remember calling anyone a retard (mentally ill) of scum personally. Goodness me.

 

15 hours ago, Charl91 said:

 

 You have the self-awareness of a lemon.

What the feck are you going on about? I have not been going round spraying graffiti on Labour posters, or having a rally holding up placards saying 'class war', 'kill all tories', 'death to tory scum' blah blah blah....I haven't been threatening to kill labour voters or burn their families and thing which momentum have been doing.

 

I perfectly accept the far right are dangerous but at the moment we have the far left in charge of the Labour party and they are just as dangerous. Its hate directed at different people under the pretence of being compassionate. Its a big problem.

 

I am not part of a tribe and would consider voting for any party if they delivered policies I consider sound.

[Strokes]

I'm beginning to wish I had voted Labour ATM, their brexit stance seems much more robust from the outside.

57 minutes ago, MattP said:

Labour minister Barry Gardner on why we have to not only the single market but also the customs union.

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/24/leaving-eu-single-market-customs-union-brexit-britain-europe