Technology, Science and the Environment.

[ozleicester]

On 27/07/2022 at 21:19, leicsmac said:

We were "capable" 50 years ago. And it is a mark of greatest shame that we turned away in the first place.

 

But it's good to see that finally the work that needs to be done is getting done.

 

May we not turn away from the stars again.

Im interested as to the benefits to us by exploring space... obviously the techno develoments needed can offer some benefits, though i wonder if they could not be brought about, without going out there? We all know that the major players only develop anything new.. for its use in warfare.

Couldnt the billions (trillions?) be spent to fix where we live..or do you think this is part of the great escape plan, where the entirety of earth becomes the first interstellar refugees?  

Seriously..though... why?

 

Edited 9 August 2022 by ozleicester

[ozleicester]

6 hours ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

Mate of mine is quite pleased with his luscious and green front lawn especially when compared to all his neighbours brown, parched offerings.

 

Turns out he regularly has the hose on it.

 

I know there isn't an hose pipe at the moment in this area, but I feel it shows a total lack of social responsibility.

 

His standout green oasis should be an embarrassment, not something to be proud of. 

Especially given the history of the "lawn" (and i stand to be corected on this) which was that it is nothing more than a demonstration of wealth originally by the aristocracy, they demonstrated to the plebs, that they owned so much land and money, that they didnt need their land for growing food or feeding animals.

Quite simply your mate is telling you and his neighbours... "Fvck off pleb"  

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Im interested as to the benefits to us by exploring space... obviously the techno develoments needed can offer some benefits, though i wonder if they could not be brought about, without going out there? We all know that the major players only develop anything new.. for its use in warfare.

Couldnt the billions (trillions?) be spent to fix where we live..or do you think this is part of the great escape plan, where the entirety of earth becomes the first interstellar refugees?  

Seriously..though... why?

 

It's a fair question to ask, and one I believe Buce asked on this very thread back in the mists of time.

 

I shall lift my answer to them verbatim for the purpose of expediency and because all of our still applies:

 

"The first (reason) is that the advancement of space tech doesn't just defend against future threats by having humans colonise other places - it also allows us, in some cases, to identify and hopefully address them before they become something we cannot stop. To use the obvious example, if there's an asteroid on its way to give us a really bad day, well, we could do with firstly knowing it's out there and coming for us at all and secondly having the tech standing by in order to sort it out rather than having to build something up from scratch with time that we don't really have. Moving away from that, we can use space tech to monitor for the possibility of supervolcanic eruptions, give projections on temperature increases caused by greenhouse gases, and other things too. It's not exactly saving the world, but it is giving us timely information that we wouldn't otherwise get, that would give us a better chance of it being saved should the need arise - and so increase the chances of long-term human survival. And we've barely scratched the surface of what such tech development might be able to do in order to defend ourselves against such threats. Additionally, to expand on the point above, there are loads of spin-off techs that have resulted from spaceflight programs that have contributed to making life easier and better here in Earth.

 

The second (reason) does indeed play into the idea of human colonisation of the Moon or Mars or space habitats, and it also requires them to be self-sustaining, at least for a long time (a tough ask, but not impossible). If planetary disaster were to strike, those people would survive, and the Earth would not be off-limits to life forever - depending on the situation, they could one day return, they wouldn't be stuck away from Earth permanently. Of course, restoring any vestige of civilisation would take a bloody long time and might not happen at all, but at least the chance might exist, rather than if they were not there and there be no chance at all. Time, however, is something we have - barring extinction-level events that crop up every so often, Earth is likely going to remain habitable by complex for the next 500-700 million years (until the Sun's increasing luminosity starts playing too much havoc). That is about the same length of time that complex life has existed on Earth at all, and it is somewhere around 10 million human lifetimes. That's why I don't like saying something can't or won't be done - over a long enough timescale, a lot can happen. A hundred years ago the idea of any kind of flight was seen as a ludicrously dangerous enterprise left only to the bravest mavericks, after all. Who knows where we'll be in a thousand years time, let alone more than that?

 

Provided, of course that we can defend ourselves against the threats that come our way while it all happens."

 

[Jon the Hat]

8 hours ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

Mate of mine is quite pleased with his luscious and green front lawn especially when compared to all his neighbours brown, parched offerings.

 

Turns out he regularly has the hose on it.

 

I know there isn't an hose pipe at the moment in this area, but I feel it shows a total lack of social responsibility.

 

His standout green oasis should be an embarrassment, not something to be proud of. 

Nothing wrong with a nice bit of lawn if it makes him happy.  I'm sure when a hosepipe ban comes in he will comply.  As we are currently renting a house with plastic lawn front and back I can only be envious!

[leicsmac]

34 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Nothing wrong with a nice bit of lawn if it makes him happy.  I'm sure when a hosepipe ban comes in he will comply.  As we are currently renting a house with plastic lawn front and back I can only be envious!

There's much better ways to keep natural property belonging to you, tbh.

[grobyfox1990]

8 hours ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

Mate of mine is quite pleased with his luscious and green front lawn especially when compared to all his neighbours brown, parched offerings.

 

Turns out he regularly has the hose on it.

 

I know there isn't an hose pipe at the moment in this area, but I feel it shows a total lack of social responsibility.

 

His standout green oasis should be an embarrassment, not something to be proud of. 

Mental that. Probably one of those in the ‘well what tiny difference will my water usage make to the world maaaaate’ and ‘you reckon by me not watering my grass we wouldn’t be in a drought loooool’ camp of ignorance and idiocy 

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Mental that. Probably one of those in the ‘well what tiny difference will my water usage make to the world maaaaate’ and ‘you reckon by me not watering my grass we wouldn’t be in a drought loooool’ camp of ignorance and idiocy 

Or he might have specially chosen a drought resistant grass which requires little water to stay green like they do over here.

[String fellow]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Nothing wrong with a nice bit of lawn if it makes him happy.  I'm sure when a hosepipe ban comes in he will comply.  As we are currently renting a house with plastic lawn front and back I can only be envious!

In the drought of 1976, we were told to put a brick in the cistern to reduce the amount of water required to refill it after each flush. Adjusting the height of the ball-cock so that the water stops refilling at a lower level is another possibility, but that can prevent the flush from working properly.

As regards folk using water sensibly or not, maybe everyone should be on a water meter. We are, but our neighbours aren't. They refuse to have one, because they spend all their spare time washing their numerous cars, often with a high-pressure hosepipe. The daft thing is that the cars never get dirty anyway.     

Edited 9 August 2022 by String fellow

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, String fellow said:

In the drought of 1976, we were told to put a brick in the the cistern to reduce the amount of water required to refill it after each flush. Adjusting the height of the ball-cock so that the water stops refilling at a lower level is another possibility, but that can prevent the flush from working properly.

As regards folk using water sensibly or not, maybe everyone should be on a water meter. We are, but our neighbours aren't. They refuse to have one, because they spend all their spare time washing their numerous cars, often with a high-pressure hosepipe. The daft thing is that the cars never get dirty anyway.     

If you mean a Karcher pressure washer these use a lot less water than a hosepipe - about 80% less.

[String fellow]

3 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

If you mean a Karcher pressure washer these use a lot less water than a hosepipe - about 80% less.

Well, that's not so bad. But they still use vast amounts of water. Recently, the guy spent about 3 hours pressure-washing his slabs.

I still think that everyone should be on a water meter to discourage excessive usage such as that. Imagine not having a gas meter or an electricity meter!

[SpacedX]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

It's a fair question to ask, and one I believe Buce asked on this very thread back in the mists of time.

 

I shall lift my answer to them verbatim for the purpose of expediency and because all of our still applies:

 

"The first (reason) is that the advancement of space tech doesn't just defend against future threats by having humans colonise other places - it also allows us, in some cases, to identify and hopefully address them before they become something we cannot stop. To use the obvious example, if there's an asteroid on its way to give us a really bad day, well, we could do with firstly knowing it's out there and coming for us at all and secondly having the tech standing by in order to sort it out rather than having to build something up from scratch with time that we don't really have. Moving away from that, we can use space tech to monitor for the possibility of supervolcanic eruptions, give projections on temperature increases caused by greenhouse gases, and other things too. It's not exactly saving the world, but it is giving us timely information that we wouldn't otherwise get, that would give us a better chance of it being saved should the need arise - and so increase the chances of long-term human survival. And we've barely scratched the surface of what such tech development might be able to do in order to defend ourselves against such threats. Additionally, to expand on the point above, there are loads of spin-off techs that have resulted from spaceflight programs that have contributed to making life easier and better here in Earth.

 

The second (reason) does indeed play into the idea of human colonisation of the Moon or Mars or space habitats, and it also requires them to be self-sustaining, at least for a long time (a tough ask, but not impossible). If planetary disaster were to strike, those people would survive, and the Earth would not be off-limits to life forever - depending on the situation, they could one day return, they wouldn't be stuck away from Earth permanently. Of course, restoring any vestige of civilisation would take a bloody long time and might not happen at all, but at least the chance might exist, rather than if they were not there and there be no chance at all. Time, however, is something we have - barring extinction-level events that crop up every so often, Earth is likely going to remain habitable by complex for the next 500-700 million years (until the Sun's increasing luminosity starts playing too much havoc). That is about the same length of time that complex life has existed on Earth at all, and it is somewhere around 10 million human lifetimes. That's why I don't like saying something can't or won't be done - over a long enough timescale, a lot can happen. A hundred years ago the idea of any kind of flight was seen as a ludicrously dangerous enterprise left only to the bravest mavericks, after all. Who knows where we'll be in a thousand years time, let alone more than that?

 

Provided, of course that we can defend ourselves against the threats that come our way while it all happens."

 

Excellent reply. I would also add three things.

 

Firstly, research. The microgravity of space allows astronauts to carry out experiments that would not be possible in the gravity of Earth for such prolonged periods. This helps advance materials science because it allows different processes to be engineered in terms of crystal growth, fluid mixing, separation between gases and liquids, heat transfer, solidification and combustion. From this we can better understand thermophysical properties, develop new/novel products and processes and examine morphological microstructures and granular matter. This has also benefitted our understanding of fundamental physics (complex plasma/dust particle/aerosol physics/motion, frictional interaction, plasma physics and aggregation phenomena). Biological research has encompassed plant physiology, statolith movement, gravitropism & gravireceptors, cell and development biology, electrophysiological and morphological properties of human cells and in terms of the latter the human research has been extensive including such examples of; integrated physiology, cardiovascular/respiratory function, body fluid shift, muscular and bone physiology, blood lactate, neuroscience, and vestibular function.

 

Natural resources. Lunar resources encompass solar power potential, oxygen, and abundant elements including, among others, hydrogen , oxygen, silicon, iron, magnesium, calcium, aluminium, manganese and titanium. Also, non-radioactive helium-3 from the moon may one day power nuclear fusion reactors. Water can also be found in the poles. Beyond our near neighbour, measurements by rovers and satellites at Mars have also indicated massive amounts of water in the form of ice beneath and within the regolith. Mineral resources are in abundance as well, including iron, titanium, nickel, aluminum, sulfur, chlorine and calcium. Asteroids could also be plentiful and inexhaustible sources of oxygen and water - consumables for life support and materials and a rich diversity of rare, valuable and abundant metals to be mined. However, at the risk or creating the next Klondike or wild west (we do not want to repeat the mistakes of the Earth’s colonial past), now is the time to put in place safeguards to protect the rest of the Solar System from the kind of gross mismanagement witnessed on Earth in the name of science and exploration, but these extra-terrestrial resources are so bountiful that such extraction would also be sustainable.

 

And lastly, as mentioned, exploration. Commander of Apollo 17 and the last man on the moon Eugen Cernan: "Here I am at the turn of the millennium and I'm still the last man to have walked on the moon, somewhat disappointing. It says more about what we have not done than about what we have done." "I think America has a responsibility to maintain its leadership in technology and its moral leadership in the world, to explore, to seek knowledge."  "I'm quite disappointed that I'm still the last man on the moon. It's our destiny to explore. It's the destiny of humanity to be space-faring". "I know the stars are my home. I learned about them, needed them for survival in terms of navigation. I know where I am when I look up at the sky. I know where I am when I look up at the Moon; it's not just some abstract romantic idea, it's something very real to me. See, I've expanded my home."

 

"Curiosity is the essence of our existence"

 

 

[urban.spaceman]

 

[Free Falling Foxes]

On 09/08/2022 at 07:44, grobyfox1990 said:

Mental that. Probably one of those in the ‘well what tiny difference will my water usage make to the world maaaaate’ and ‘you reckon by me not watering my grass we wouldn’t be in a drought loooool’ camp of ignorance and idiocy 

Another example from folk I know or have overheard.

Guy tells me he'll only start worrying (about water shortage/climate change) when he turns on his tap and nothing comes out.

There must be 100s of thousands of people with that attitude. All the evidence, guidance  and education will not change them

Frightening.

[grobyfox1990]

38 minutes ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

Another example from folk I know or have overheard.

Guy tells me he'll only start worrying (about water shortage/climate change) when he turns on his tap and nothing comes out.

There must be 100s of thousands of people with that attitude. All the evidence, guidance  and education will not change them

Frightening.

Went to a wedding reception at a house in Hampstead last night. Had a couple of whiskies as you do and whilst walking back 5+ gardens had hoses watering their lawns. Managed to turn a few off without residents noticing. Mental attitude 

[deep blue]

43 minutes ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

Another example from folk I know or have overheard.

Guy tells me he'll only start worrying (about water shortage/climate change) when he turns on his tap and nothing comes out.

There must be 100s of thousands of people with that attitude. All the evidence, guidance  and education will not change them

Frightening.

Unfortunately, we live in a largely selfish society. Dunno how you turn that around.

[SpacedX]

47 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

 Managed to turn a few off without residents noticing. 

Love this. 

 

Shame you couldn't have don it in front of them. 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, deep blue said:

Unfortunately, we live in a largely selfish society. Dunno how you turn that around.

Well, you would think that outlining the dire consequences of that selfishness would help...but evidently it still appears too abstract to some people.

[grobyfox1990]

2 hours ago, Line-X said:

Love this. 

 

Shame you couldn't have don it in front of them. 

Lol even after a few drinks I’m way too much of a wimp to get into confrontation with NIMBY Hampstead types 

[yorkie1999]

Anyone interested, there’s quite a big meteor shower tonight. Shame it’s gone a bit cloudy. I’ve seen a few already

[SpacedX]

22 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Anyone interested, there’s quite a big meteor shower tonight. Shame it’s gone a bit cloudy. I’ve seen a few already

Past their peak, which was early Saturday morning - but as you say still quite a show. Unfortunately, this was not as spectacular as last year due to the full moon. The Perseids are the only annual meteor shower during which I've seen a fireball. Memories of being a young child staying up and watching them on holiday on the north Devon coast.  

[yorkie1999]

36 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Past their peak, which was early Saturday morning - but as you say still quite a show. Unfortunately, this was not as spectacular as last year due to the full moon. The Perseids are the only annual meteor shower during which I've seen a fireball. Memories of being a young child staying up and watching them on holiday on the north Devon coast.  

I’ve seen one burning out tonight.

[yorkie1999]

No one in the world can say this is the wrong sort of rain in Leicestershire. It’s perfect, even my grass is turning colour.

[Foxdiamond]

On 08/08/2022 at 22:49, Free Falling Foxes said:

Mate of mine is quite pleased with his luscious and green front lawn especially when compared to all his neighbours brown, parched offerings.

 

Turns out he regularly has the hose on it.

 

I know there isn't an hose pipe at the moment in this area, but I feel it shows a total lack of social responsibility.

 

His standout green oasis should be an embarrassment, not something to be proud of. 

The hosepipe ban would be in place earlier if more were selfish like your mate. I agree he should be ashamed 

[Foxdiamond]

16 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

No one in the world can say this is the wrong sort of rain in Leicestershire. It’s perfect, even my grass is turning colour.

Only had tiny drop down here so far

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, Foxdiamond said:

Only had tiny drop down here so far

One thing I have noticed, this dry spell isn’t that terrible, I walk my dog across a few football pitches near me, 3 years ago the lines were opening up with 2-3 inch wide cracks, not a sign this year. Touch wood.