Is there a genuine opportunity to build this team?

[reynard]

18 hours ago, Xen said:

If you do as we have done and focus on youth, bring them through to PL level then tie them down on 4-5 year long contracts, then as a club we're financially secure enough not to be pressured into selling and instead keep them for at least 2 years before we choose to offload them. Doing so increases the fee we get for them, gives us time to find/develop their replacements, and we have that window of opportunity where we can push for success and hopefully progress enough that some of them stay.

 

It'll take a couple of consecutive years of positive development to reach that point, of course, but we've started the process well, have a world-class training facility in the works and a promising academy squad to work with.

Sadly there is a third party in the room, namely agents. We shouldn't overlook the role they play these days in moving players around. Remember they make most of their money when players move clubs. It is not in their interest for their clients to spend too long at any given club unless they can secure them big wage increases and therby take their cut.

I'm afraid it is inevitable that our best players will leave. I expect Maguire and Chilwell will go in the summer.

Whilst it is important to try to develop good young players and in itself is a worthy model and one I agree we should vigourously persue, continued success cannot be guaranteed. A few years ago Southampton were 4th in the Premier League. they couldn't sustain it and over the years have off-loaded some serious talent for some serious money. It hasn't really done them any good. If we're not winning trophies then the best players will leave.

Of course the great uncertainty in future recruitment is brexit and how/if that will make a difference. I do wonder if the German interest in recruiting young British talent at exactly this time has anything to do with their fears that this might not be so easy in the future.

[Babylon]

14 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

A little bit of research into the "Top 6".....

 

Teams from outside the "Big 6" (MC, MU, Liv, Arse, Spurs, Chelsea) finishing in the Top 6 this century, with year in brackets

 

(Bear in mind that Man City have only been mega-rich for 10 years, Chelsea for 15 years & Spurs have only been consistent "Top 6" finishers for 10 years)

 

1st: Leicester (16)

2nd: None

3rd: Newcastle (03)

4th: Leeds (01), Newcastle (02), Everton (05)

5th: Ipswich (01), Leeds (02), Newcastle (04, 12), Everton (08, 09, 14)

6th: Blackburn (03, 06), Villa (04, 08, 09, 10), Bolton (05), Everton (07, 13), Southampton (16)

 

Pretty stunning, if not depressing that LCFC 2016 is the only time in 14 years that a non-"Big 6" club has finished in the Top 4.....dating back to a time before Man City were rich, when Abramovich was new at Chelsea & Everton were viewed as "Big 5".

Also, including this season, 2015-16 was the only time in the last 5 years when the "Big/Top 6" were not the actual Top 6.

 

So, breaking into the Top 6 is becoming ever more difficult.

 

There's the natural, long-term development route described by Babylon and others. I suppose there's also the glimmer of hope that a solid PL team (like LCFC) can acquire or develop a couple of outstanding players, allowing them to challenge for the top 6 (particularly if one or more of the big boys has a crisis season for whatever reason). That might allow a one-off incursion into the Top 6, before top players are picked off by the richest clubs...

I've posted similar a few times myself, I don't think people appreciate it would be a total anomaly.

[Captain...]

3 hours ago, Babylon said:

Southampton sold their entire team in the space of three seasons. We've shown absolutely no signs of being willing to cash in at that level.

 

We bought the centre backs because the summer coming we could have been left with just Evans on the books. Needing to recruit three or maybe even four centre backs in one window would have been suicide, for once we've forward planned for a problem that had been looming for years. Yes, two would have been fine, with with strong interest in Maguire we clearly got someone in to cover the chance he was going and we clearly thought he might.

 

Can we give Ghezzal bashing a week off considering he came on and looked a better bet than most of the others to create something.

We’ve lost virtually the entire Champions team in 3 seasons. While we’re still basking in the reflected glow of champions and with a realistic chance of European football it is easier to hold onto players and attract them. If we become a stodgy middle table side showing no ambition in the cups then we’ll find it harder.

 

Going back to the 3 centre backs, valid points on future planning, but you have to look at the previous few windows. We knew Benalouane was surplus to requirements I’m not sure why we messed Dragovic around so much, but we should not have found ourselves in that position of only having 2 CBs we could rely on. 

 

Ghezzal is pretty average, we spent a lot on him, comparable players signed by our rivals have shown up what poor business it was. We knew Mahrez was leaving we should have had a list of targets long as your arm, and Ghezzal should have been bottom.

 

Schurrle, Bernard, Delufeo, Anderson, Yarmolenko, Brooks, Seri, Traore...

 

And many more were signed in the transfer window by clubs of equal or lower stature than us. All better value than Ghezzal. Whatever his merits as a player, we spent way too much on him when there were clearly better options out there. Any sort of model for recruitment relies on us not spending stupid money on players that are not going to play and lose their transfer value.

[turtmcfly]

12 minutes ago, Captain... said:

We’ve lost virtually the entire Champions team in 3 seasons. While we’re still basking in the reflected glow of champions and with a realistic chance of European football it is easier to hold onto players and attract them. If we become a stodgy middle table side showing no ambition in the cups then we’ll find it harder.

 

Going back to the 3 centre backs, valid points on future planning, but you have to look at the previous few windows. We knew Benalouane was surplus to requirements I’m not sure why we messed Dragovic around so much, but we should not have found ourselves in that position of only having 2 CBs we could rely on. 

 

Ghezzal is pretty average, we spent a lot on him, comparable players signed by our rivals have shown up what poor business it was. We knew Mahrez was leaving we should have had a list of targets long as your arm, and Ghezzal should have been bottom.

 

Schurrle, Bernard, Delufeo, Anderson, Yarmolenko, Brooks, Seri, Traore...

 

And many more were signed in the transfer window by clubs of equal or lower stature than us. All better value than Ghezzal. Whatever his merits as a player, we spent way too much on him when there were clearly better options out there. Any sort of model for recruitment relies on us not spending stupid money on players that are not going to play and lose their transfer value.

The team that included Schmeichel, Simpson, Fuchs, Morgan, Albrighton, Okazaki and Vardy?

 

 

 

 

[Captain...]

9 minutes ago, turtmcfly said:

The team that included Schmeichel, Simpson, Fuchs, Morgan, Albrighton, Okazaki and Vardy?

 

 

 

 

And next season will include how many?

 

3 of those are only here in name, Fuchs is going in the Summer, Simpson and Okazaki are surplus to requirements. Morgan will need to be phased out soon. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Albrighton also phased out. 

 

In the same way Southampton lost their team over 3 seasons so will we. 

 

[Babylon]

7 minutes ago, Captain... said:

We’ve lost virtually the entire Champions team in 3 seasons. While we’re still basking in the reflected glow of champions and with a realistic chance of European football it is easier to hold onto players and attract them. If we become a stodgy middle table side showing no ambition in the cups then we’ll find it harder.

We have sold three of them though, losing a team because of age is entirely different to cashing in on your assets.

 

7 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Going back to the 3 centre backs, valid points on future planning, but you have to look at the previous few windows. We knew Benalouane was surplus to requirements I’m not sure why we messed Dragovic around so much, but we should not have found ourselves in that position of only having 2 CBs we could rely on.

I'm not sure when you are talking about exactly only have two who were reliable? Benny was bang average to worse, but as a fourth or fifth choice he's fine and if it's last season you are talking about we had Wes, Maguire and Dragovic as well. The issue on the horizon in the summer coming was always Benny and Wes being out of contract and Maguire potentially being poached.

 

7 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Ghezzal is pretty average, we spent a lot on him, comparable players signed by our rivals have shown up what poor business it was. We knew Mahrez was leaving we should have had a list of targets long as your arm, and Ghezzal should have been bottom.

 

Schurrle, Bernard, Delufeo, Anderson, Yarmolenko, Brooks, Seri, Traore...

 

And many more were signed in the transfer window by clubs of equal or lower stature than us. All better value than Ghezzal. Whatever his merits as a player, we spent way too much on him when there were clearly better options out there. Any sort of model for recruitment relies on us not spending stupid money on players that are not going to play and lose their transfer value.

Of course we had a list of other players, clearly Ghezzal was a last minute panic. But you can't always sign up who you want, there is no chance on this earth that we didn't have a list of players we liked but for whatever reason they went elsewhere.

 

Bernard was a free transfer and has commanded wages at Everton that would have blown our wage structure out of the water.

 

Anderson cost more money that we could afford.

 

Yarmolenko cost more in fee and wages and has done nothing of note and out for the season injured.

 

Delufeo, done ok but nothing amazing and is a massive mixed bag... Their fans general opinion: "When he’s crap, he’s monumentally crap, but when he’s good, he’s really bloody good. Despite the really good moments being few and far between, they also give you hope that one day he’ll put things together and become a consistent terror. We all know he won’t ever achieve this, but those fleeting glimpses of divine talent are enough to keep you coming back to the well time and time again.He’s crap, he’s petulant and he’s a bit of a *****. But he’s our *****."

 

Traore, the bloke is a waste of space. All speed and absolutely nothing else. Cost more and done nothing.

 

Seri is a CM, unless I'm thinking of the wrong Seri.

 

Only Schurrle or Brooks out of those who we could have realistically signed or afforded have done anything of note. Then you have the guys who went to Brighton and Saints who cost lots more and been a complete bust.

 

 

 

 

[Captain...]

29 minutes ago, Babylon said:

We have sold three of them though, losing a team because of age is entirely different to cashing in on your assets.

 

I'm not sure when you are talking about exactly only have two who were reliable? Benny was bang average to worse, but as a fourth or fifth choice he's fine and if it's last season you are talking about we had Wes, Maguire and Dragovic as well. The issue on the horizon in the summer coming was always Benny and Wes being out of contract and Maguire potentially being poached.

 

Of course we had a list of other players, clearly Ghezzal was a last minute panic. But you can't always sign up who you want, there is no chance on this earth that we didn't have a list of players we liked but for whatever reason they went elsewhere.

 

Bernard was a free transfer and has commanded wages at Everton that would have blown our wage structure out of the water.

 

Anderson cost more money that we could afford.

 

Yarmolenko cost more in fee and wages and has done nothing of note and out for the season injured.

 

Delufeo, done ok but nothing amazing and is a massive mixed bag... Their fans general opinion: "When he’s crap, he’s monumentally crap, but when he’s good, he’s really bloody good. Despite the really good moments being few and far between, they also give you hope that one day he’ll put things together and become a consistent terror. We all know he won’t ever achieve this, but those fleeting glimpses of divine talent are enough to keep you coming back to the well time and time again.He’s crap, he’s petulant and he’s a bit of a *****. But he’s our *****."

 

Traore, the bloke is a waste of space. All speed and absolutely nothing else. Cost more and done nothing.

 

Seri is a CM, unless I'm thinking of the wrong Seri.

 

Only Schurrle or Brooks out of those who we could have realistically signed or afforded have done anything of note. Then you have the guys who went to Brighton and Saints who cost lots more and been a complete bust.

 

 

 

 

Sometimes I hate this format for discourse, I think we’d have a great discussion over a pint yet it is always frustrating in this format.

 

Anyway, losing a whole side over 3 seasons, regardless of how is unsettling. If you sell them at least you have a ton of money. Rebuilding is risky and expensive and the point is that Southampton managed it for a while but it wasn’t sustainable. If you make mistakes a few duff signings and suddenly you can’t maintain it. We are going to struggle to not be seen as a stepping stone and once viewed as such players will sign with one eye on the next move. This is at greater risk of happening if there is not a strong bond with team mates and manager. 

 

The point about centre backs was last summer we only had Morgan and Maguire, the previous window we knew that would be the case as we’d seemingly decided on Dragovic already.

 

There are plenty more summer signings that have proven to be better value for money. We could afford Anderson we’d just sold Mahrez, Yarmolenko getting injured doesn’t mean he was a bad signing just unfortunate.

 

Traore, May be a one dimensional speed merchant, but I’d rather have someone who has one strength that scares the opposition, than an all rounder with no real strengths. Traore can be moulded into an effective player I don’t see that happening with Ghezzal.

 

 

[Bablemikey]

For me there are a couple of obvious points I’d like to see addressed. Firstly, we have a very capable midfield when it comes to winning the ball back but we do not take advantage of this in transition into attack and all too frequently immediately give the ball away again. Secondly, playing the ball in behind defences to runners. We just do not do this quickly or frequently enough to expose a defence. Playing with back to goal or looking to head crosses is really not playing to our strengths.

 

 

[Babylon]

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Sometimes I hate this format for discourse, I think we’d have a great discussion over a pint yet it is always frustrating in this format.

It's better than twitter, I've had to come off there as I just want to punch myself in the face as it's impossible to have any sort of conversation!

 

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Anyway, losing a whole side over 3 seasons, regardless of how is unsettling. If you sell them at least you have a ton of money. Rebuilding is risky and expensive and the point is that Southampton managed it for a while but it wasn’t sustainable. If you make mistakes a few duff signings and suddenly you can’t maintain it. We are going to struggle to not be seen as a stepping stone and once viewed as such players will sign with one eye on the next move. This is at greater risk of happening if there is not a strong bond with team mates and manager.

Ok I'm with you, I think we're past that point though. The squad age is reduced and could last us the best part of a decade if we don't want to sell players. So it's totally in our control now, we can drip feed the sales rather than selling off the family silver. They let too many go for big sums too quickly, if we're selling one a summer at most then I think the danger is minimal.

 

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

The point about centre backs was last summer we only had Morgan and Maguire, the previous window we knew that would be the case as we’d seemingly decided on Dragovic alread

Personally I think three on the books is ok, even if one isn't entirely reliable. Two purchases in the summer was fine, three was a pure reaction to the Maguire interest and perhaps an overreaction to what happened with selling Drinkwater and the Silva signing being left late and us missing out. I think it was a case of, we've been here before lets take no risks.

 

If we could afford Anderson the manager wouldn't be saying we can't compete with those teams. That money was spent on the likes of Ricardo, Maddison, Soyuncu etc. We'll agree to disagree with Traora, I think he'll end up dropping down a division again.

[Captain...]

13 minutes ago, Babylon said:

It's better than twitter, I've had to come off there as I just want to punch myself in the face as it's impossible to have any sort of conversation!

 

Ok I'm with you, I think we're past that point though. The squad age is reduced and could last us the best part of a decade if we don't want to sell players. So it's totally in our control now, we can drip feed the sales rather than selling off the family silver. They let too many go for big sums too quickly, if we're selling one a summer at most then I think the danger is minimal.

 

Personally I think three on the books is ok, even if one isn't entirely reliable. Two purchases in the summer was fine, three was a pure reaction to the Maguire interest and perhaps an overreaction to what happened with selling Drinkwater and the Silva signing being left late and us missing out. I think it was a case of, we've been here before lets take no risks.

 

If we could afford Anderson the manager wouldn't be saying we can't compete with those teams. That money was spent on the likes of Ricardo, Maddison, Soyuncu etc. We'll agree to disagree with Traora, I think he'll end up dropping down a division again.

I hope you’re right, but my natural optimism has been worn away by too many shocking transfers off the pitch and awful performances on it. 

 

We’re certainly making some good moves, but also bad moves it’s hard to convince myself that we aren’t a few steps away from disaster.

[Babylon]

31 minutes ago, Captain... said:

I hope you’re right, but my natural optimism has been worn away by too many shocking transfers off the pitch and awful performances on it. 

 

We’re certainly making some good moves, but also bad moves it’s hard to convince myself that we aren’t a few steps away from disaster.

All teams are in the prem, it doesn't take much. Bad manger choice or failing to replace a key player can do it in months. It's just about minimising risk really.

[turtmcfly]

1 hour ago, Captain... said:

And next season will include how many?

 

3 of those are only here in name, Fuchs is going in the Summer, Simpson and Okazaki are surplus to requirements. Morgan will need to be phased out soon. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Albrighton also phased out. 

 

In the same way Southampton lost their team over 3 seasons so will we. 

 

 

 

 

Well, same final headcount. Quite a different 'way'. 

 

[TheLittleBigMan]

17 hours ago, ScouseFox said:

twice today i’ve had to explain that vardy didn’t 3 years ago. we’re a very different club now. 

 

i doubt there was any serious interest in maguire. if a top 6 club genuinely wanted any of our players, they will want to leave. we might keep them for a transfer window or two longer (like mahrez) due to demanding a big fee, but does anyone really think a maddison or a chilwell is going to stay, playing depressing football, losing most weeks whilst being booed off by their own fans as opposed to doubling their wages and winning trophies? 

 

come off it. like i said in another thread, even as a leicester fan i’d leave this shower of shite in an instant. 

There was serious interest in maguire and he stated he owed it to the club to stay.  Top clubs will court our players and after a few years they might move on but that's standard in top flight football. We are not a selling club either and more than happy to play hard ball. To say that if a top 6 club wanted any of our players they would up and leave in an instant seems a bit over board to me. The booing isn't helping though.

[urban fox]

1 hour ago, TheLittleBigMan said:

There was serious interest in maguire and he stated he owed it to the club to stay.  Top clubs will court our players and after a few years they might move on but that's standard in top flight football. We are not a selling club either and more than happy to play hard ball. To say that if a top 6 club wanted any of our players they would up and leave in an instant seems a bit over board to me. The booing isn't helping though.

quite right. We constantly hear about what a great club it is under the current regime and how much respect there is amongst the staff for what is trying to be done, (and this was borne out by the scenes of genuine grief over last years tragedy).  As has already been pointed out, unless they do a Mahrez and spit the dummy then it is not entirely up to them either.  The club has been quite astute in that respect by signing the key players on long term contracts, which means that they can effectively name their price or simply refuse permission to talk to other clubs. In such an instance, any approach would be illegal under FA rules.  The majority of the "This player in talks with xxxx" and "YXZ are preparing a bid for that player" is all newspaper talk and click bait or agents simply making mischief to get their client a pay rise.  If the press start enough rumours eventually one will come to fruition and they can then boast about having broke the news first etc etc.

I once remember on deadline day radio 5 deliberately starting an outrageous rumour (cant remember who and what club were involved) just to see how long it took before somebody called in saying that they had it from a reliable source and then repeated the totally unfounded rumour that they had started.  It only took about 2 or 3 hours.

[fuchsntf]

2 hours ago, urban fox said:

quite right. We constantly hear about what a great club it is under the current regime and how much respect there is amongst the staff for what is trying to be done, (and this was borne out by the scenes of genuine grief over last years tragedy).  As has already been pointed out, unless they do a Mahrez and spit the dummy then it is not entirely up to them either.  The club has been quite astute in that respect by signing the key players on long term contracts, which means that they can effectively name their price or simply refuse permission to talk to other clubs. In such an instance, any approach would be illegal under FA rules.  The majority of the "This player in talks with xxxx" and "YXZ are preparing a bid for that player" is all newspaper talk and click bait or agents simply making mischief to get their client a pay rise.  If the press start enough rumours eventually one will come to fruition and they can then boast about having broke the news first etc etc.

I once remember on deadline day radio 5 deliberately starting an outrageous rumour (cant remember who and what club were involved) just to see how long it took before somebody called in saying that they had it from a reliable source and then repeated the totally unfounded rumour that they had started.  It only took about 2 or 3 hours.

I'll read rumours..because they are funny...

Any players mentioned...only interest me when they have signed...

I actually find the whole fan,media driven drivel,over rumours pathetic and boring....It's my age,I have rode out too many years and seen the twaddle,

and extremes,that many 2nd rate sports journalists go to, to create any BS around any possible interest taken by gullable story-craved fans!!!

 

It seems everybody loves a touch of coronation-street or Eastenders, in their football clubs life...!!!

The Blackadder-group should write a series...

[David Hankey]

On 07/02/2019 at 14:11, Cardiff_Fox said:

Out of interest, what would you define has success for LCFC currently? 

Like most folk I talk to a position between 6th and 9th given the points we have chucked away, however, given our current performances we'll be lucky to hang on to 11/12th.

[David Hankey]

14 hours ago, Babylon said:

So what's the other option? Do you have the money to buy the club and spend billions on it?

Is that the only other option? Christ, if it was I wish I had the money!!

[Analysethis]

23 hours ago, Babylon said:

We are not Manchester United, in 1990 they might have finished 13th... but in the previous eleven years they had finished in the top four seven times and had an averaged a crowd of 40,000+. We are light years away from being what they were even back then. 

 

We do not have unreal talent either, we have lots of potential with little having been proven by most of them. 

The parallel I was making was on talent, not the size of the club. Anyone with half a football brain knows the way to see how good a youngster can be is to throw him in and see how he goes. United did it back in the day and we have been doing it with the likes of Ndidi, Chilwell and Hamza getting game time. Its the same with Harvey Barnes. There isnt a squad in the premiership that has got young talent like us, not one. The youngsters getting game time bodes well for the future and if they progress again towards the end of this season, into pre-season and next then we have more serious players than you think.

 

I stand by what I said earlier. We have a superb nucleus of young players, sling Benkovic into the mix and the returning Barnes and they could develop to challenge the top 6. I did also mention we need to buy a couple of players to help the cause but the future is very bright IMO.

[urban fox]

18 hours ago, Analysethis said:

The parallel I was making was on talent, not the size of the club. Anyone with half a football brain knows the way to see how good a youngster can be is to throw him in and see how he goes. United did it back in the day and we have been doing it with the likes of Ndidi, Chilwell and Hamza getting game time. Its the same with Harvey Barnes. There isnt a squad in the premiership that has got young talent like us, not one. The youngsters getting game time bodes well for the future and if they progress again towards the end of this season, into pre-season and next then we have more serious players than you think.

 

I stand by what I said earlier. We have a superb nucleus of young players, sling Benkovic into the mix and the returning Barnes and they could develop to challenge the top 6. I did also mention we need to buy a couple of players to help the cause but the future is very bright IMO.

I agree. You will never find out just how good, or otherwise, they are until you give them a proper go. We should however be wary of getting too carried away. Remember that we are often to ready to proclaim every promising new youngster as the next big thing and the saviour of our clubs future that for every one that goes on to great things many fall by the wayside and do not fulfill that early promise. We should be careful of over hyping them up too much. That's not to say that I do not think we have one of the best crop of youngsters in the league because I genuinely beleivery we have. I just remember the likes of Joachim and the hype when he first burst onto the scene. A good player but he reached his peak early and didn't develop after that. I think possibly that may the case with gray for example. A decent player but does not seem to the to have progressed and I wonder if he has now reached his level.