Persecuted for following your faith.

[Izzy]

27 minutes ago, sishades said:

 

Also why should I love my neighbour,  I will love whoever i choose and not be dictated to by some religous doctrine.  My neighbour might be an arsehole who deals drugs  and play gangster rap at 2 am. 

 

I think it’s unfair to suggest religion is ‘dictating’ that we love our neighbours.

 

What it means is, can we find it in ourselves to ‘forgive’ people, however big an arsehole they seem. 

 

I know plenty of kind, compassionate, loving and forgiving people who are also atheists. 

As someone mentioned before, we can all still be decent people whether we believe or not.

 

P.S. No one’s telling you to do anything. Love thy neighbor is a guiding principle for Christians to follow. I’m sure other religions have different principles but I don’t feel dictated to by them.

[SpacedX]

15 minutes ago, Izzy said:

I think it’s unfair to suggest religion is ‘dictating’ that we love our neighbours.

 

What it means is, can we find it in ourselves to ‘forgive’ people, however big an arsehole they seem. 

 

Are you sure about that Iz? A friend of mine lived next door to Carig Levein. 

[sishades]

30 minutes ago, Line-X said:

That's not particularly pious though is it. What would Jesus say?

"Wheres my phone, I need to whatsapp my followers and issue a dislike on facebook"

 

 

Quote

What it means is, can we find it in ourselves to ‘forgive’ people, however big an arsehole they seem. 

Would you forgive and love someone who raped your daughter, or murdered your elderly parents while robbing them in their home,  Drink drivers who kill and injure thousands of people every year, religous nut jobs who send children into battle with bombs attached to their chests. Most people cant forgive Ian Holloway for getting us relegated so what chance a criminal. Besides who says forgiveness works?

 

Quote

37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I think the key word here is"commandments". The Oxford English dictionary defines this as "an order". So it is not a guideline at all.

Edited 21 April 2019 by sishades

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, sishades said:

I suggest you read Christopher Hitchins work "God Is Not Great", (which I have) Dawkins "God Delusion " (which I have), studied history to a good level. Socialism does not demand obediance, it offers a political view point that can change over time along with all political ideologies. Only religion stays the same. Also if I decide not to become a socialist Richard Corbin will not come to my house and threaten to condemn me to an eternity of pain and torture. Also I can switch from socialism to conservatism if I wish and can do so in the knowledge that the politcal leadership will not issue me with a death penalty / fatwa and or excommunication.

 

Also why should I love my neighbour,  I will love whoever i choose and not be dictated to by some religous doctrine.  My neighbour might be an arsehole who deals drugs  and play gangster rap at 2 am. To suggest I am unthinking is rediculous, my posts prove that i have researched this topic to some degree, and it is typical of people of faith to throw biblical quotes as a weapon to make their points due to their own inability to ...ahem think for themselves. My original question that I posed still remains unanswered.

 

 

 

I've read "The God Delusion". I've not read any books by Hitchens but have read articles and watched videos of his debates. As a convinced atheist, I agreed with almost everything that they had to say, but to me it's a bit like "the truth, nothing but the truth....but not the whole truth". Like Dawkins, Hitchens & De Botton, I don't believe in any God....but like De Botton, I believe that us atheists still have a lot of good stuff to learn from religion. That's the bit of the truth that some atheists tend to ignore. I'll bear your Hitchens recommendation in mind and look forward to your comments on De Botton if you get round to reading him.

 

Both socialism and religion come in different forms and with different institutions. Some are open-minded and encourage thought, others are dictatorial and demand obedience. Both have changed over time and both are interpreted differently depending on the individual, location etc. Even many non-socialists would say that Attlee's socialist govt did a lot of good for the UK, whereas I hope that even most socialists would agree that Stalin, as leader of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, was wrong to order the murder of countless millions in the name of socialism/communism. Likewise, I hope that most Muslims would condemn ISIS and most Christians would feel queasy about the Crusades or Christian bigotry in the Deep South. But plenty of Christians (and non-Christians) act in a generous, moral way - and Christianity can be a force for radical social change: e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

 

I don't know who Richard Corbin is? I'm aware of Jeremy Corbyn and Googled but only found Richard Corben, an American cartoonist?  If you meant Jeremy, I'm sure that he wouldn't come and threaten you, but I can certainly remember people who shared his beliefs speaking very aggressively to me and to others who dared to disagree with the approved Hard Left line in union and Labour Party meetings in the 1980s....not to mention the, er, demands for obedience from Stalin, Mao etc. Socialism isn't inherently dictatorial any more than religion is - but both can be misused by dictatorial individuals and groups.

 

@Izzy has answered the point about "love thy neighbour". It's not dictatorial, it's an exhortation and aspiration that can make us more reasonable, tolerant and socially-minded and can encourage a response from others, even some who may initially be unreasonable. Of course, some people remain unreasonable and need a less conciliatory response, by calling the police or whatever.

 

I'm not sure who your comment about "people of faith throwing biblical quotes as weapons" was aimed at? Not me, presumably, as I've repeatedly said that I'm an atheist - and am recommending a book called "Religion for atheists", written by an atheist. 

 

What's your original question that remains unanswered? I've checked and the only question that I can see asks why we need a God to pursue good ideas about art, community, love, friendship, work, life and death. I answered that question: we don't! That's the whole point of De Botton's book.....as well as doing bad stuff, religions have created an awful lot of good stuff, which we as atheists can learn from, appropriate and use to improve our lives. Let me know if I've missed some other question.

 

Anyway, shitty situation in Sri Lanka, whoever the violent bigots were who attacked churches and hotels, killing hundreds.....

We need more tolerance generally - but need to root out those inclined towards violent intolerance, whether they're motivated by religion, politics or anything else!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sishades]

ooops I meant Jeremy, thanks for pointing that out. My question was "what cant I do as an atheist that I can only do with religion"., and was not aimed at you Alf. I need to point out that I do not criticise the followers of religion but religion itself. Toleration can only go so far. If I claim to believe in fairies and pixies living at the bottom of my garden I should expect ridicule and be laughed at, which is why I agree with your last statement.

 

With regards to Liberation Theology, this is humanism and does not require the belief in a God to persue. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Buce]

 

The archbishop of Colombo, Cardinal Malcolm Ranjith, called it “a very sad day" and urged the government to identify the attackers and “punish them mercilessly because only animals can behave like that”.

 

On the contrary, only humans can behave like that.

[Izzy]

29 minutes ago, sishades said:

 

Would you forgive and love someone who raped your daughter, or murdered your elderly parents while robbing them in their home

I’d like to say yes but unless that happened for real, I guess I really don’t know for sure.

 

Again, forgiveness and religion are not mutually exclusive. I know atheists who have forgiven others for wicked and cruel acts against them and their families.

 

If I had the choice of living a life of anger, frustration and resentment in pursuit of justice and retaliation or one of love and forgiveness, I think I’d choose love and forgiveness thanks.

 

[sishades]

5 minutes ago, Izzy said:

If I had the choice of living a life of anger, frustration and resentment in pursuit of justice and retaliation or one of love and forgiveness, I think I’d choose love and forgiveness thanks.

 

Unfortunately natural human emotion might lead you down the obvious path, lets hope we never get to that cross roads.

Edited 21 April 2019 by sishades

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, sishades said:

ooops I meant Jeremy, thanks for pointing that out. My question was "what cant I do as an atheist that I can only do with religion"., and was not aimed at you Alf. I need to point out that I do not criticise the followers of religion but religion itself. Toleration can only go so far. If I claim to believe in fairies and pixies living at the bottom of my garden I should expect ridicule and be laughed at, which is why I agree with your last statement.

 

With regards to Liberation Theology, this is humanism and does not require the belief in a God to persue. 

 

 

I'd have thought that if you believed in fairies and pixies and this led you to make all sorts of valuable contributions to society (as well as doing some bad stuff), then despite your belief in fairies and pixies, the world would still have a lot to learn from you. That wouldn't mean that fairies and pixies existed - or that the bad stuff didn't happen - just that your thinking and organisations had made a contribution useful beyond believers in fairies and pixies.

 

Why should the instinct be to ridicule and laugh at anyone's beliefs? Debate, challenge and criticism are fair enough, but where do we end up if we just ridicule one another's beliefs and laugh at one another? That's a path of hostility and intolerance in a world that's already too intolerant. Aren't all of us open to ridicule if it comes to that? All of us take ourselves so seriously, when we have all the significance of a grain of sand in the context of 7bn people, a vast world and a near-infinite history and future. By 75 years after our deaths (earlier for many), we'll all be completely forgotten about and of no significance to anyone......maybe we should laugh at ourselves more and at others less?

 

A particular current in Christian thinking was the dominant force in Liberation Theology, even if other ideas contributed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

Like other good bits of Christianity, it could have been pursued without any belief in God, via humanism, socialism or other belief systems - but the fact is that it didn't. It came largely from Christianity. That deserves credit, just as the bad stuff deserves discredit.

 

Over and out and Happy Easter, Spring Equinox, Merry Pixiemas or whatever! 

 

Edited 21 April 2019 by Alf Bentley

[sishades]

Quote

By 75 years after our deaths (earlier for many), we'll all be completely forgotten about and of no significance to anyone

Not me, I intend to live forever. I think that this thread could go on even longer my own immortality so I will join you in my cave for an imaginary glass of port and a DVD of our 2016 Title win. 

 

[Buce]

2 hours ago, sishades said:

I suggest you read Christopher Hitchins work "God Is Not Great", (which I have) Dawkins "God Delusion " (which I have), studied history to a good level. Socialism does not demand obediance, it offers a political view point that can change over time along with all political ideologies. Only religion stays the same. Also if I decide not to become a socialist Richard Corbin will not come to my house and threaten to condemn me to an eternity of pain and torture. Also I can switch from socialism to conservatism if I wish and can do so in the knowledge that the politcal leadership will not issue me with a death penalty / fatwa and or excommunication.

 

Also why should I love my neighbour,  I will love whoever i choose and not be dictated to by some religous doctrine.  My neighbour might be an arsehole who deals drugs  and play gangster rap at 2 am. To suggest I am unthinking is rediculous, my posts prove that i have researched this topic to some degree, and it is typical of people of faith to throw biblical quotes as a weapon to make their points due to their own inability to ...ahem think for themselves. My original question that I posed still remains unanswered.

 

 

Is it ok if he deals drugs but keeps it mellow with a bit of Floyd?

 

1 hour ago, sishades said:

"Wheres my phone, I need to whatsapp my followers and issue a dislike on facebook"

 

 

Would you forgive and love someone who raped your daughter, or murdered your elderly parents while robbing them in their home,  Drink drivers who kill and injure thousands of people every year, religous nut jobs who send children into battle with bombs attached to their chests. Most people cant forgive Ian Holloway for getting us relegated so what chance a criminal. Besides who says forgiveness works?

 

I think the key word here is"commandments". The Oxford English dictionary defines this as "an order". So it is not a guideline at all.

 

Tbf, he probably would - I mean, he knows what a cvnt I am and we’re still mates. 

[Buce]

36 minutes ago, sishades said:

Not me, I intend to live forever. I think that this thread could go on even longer my own immortality so I will join you in my cave for an imaginary glass of port and a DVD of our 2016 Title win. 

 

 

That sounds like the kind of thing someone religious might say...

[Parafox]

3 hours ago, Izzy said:

I think it’s unfair to suggest religion is ‘dictating’ that we love our neighbours.

 

What it means is, can we find it in ourselves to ‘forgive’ people, however big an arsehole they seem. 

 

I know plenty of kind, compassionate, loving and forgiving people who are also atheists. 

As someone mentioned before, we can all still be decent people whether we believe or not.

 

P.S. No one’s telling you to do anything. Love thy neighbor is a guiding principle for Christians to follow. I’m sure other religions have different principles but I don’t feel dictated to by them.

I don't have a religion as such, I just believe in the kindness of human nature which I think is there in all of us that are moderate, understanding and accepting of others regardless of their faults.

 

In my job, I've had to "forgive" and "understand" so many arseholes that I would have otherwise found objectionable that have insulted, abused and hurt me but as Izzy suggests, loving thy neighbour is a principle for living a decent, compassionate, peaceful life. 

 

I would like to think that, faced with a stranger in need of assistance in a crisis, none of us here would turn away. That's not being religious. It's being human.

[Sampson]

4 hours ago, sishades said:

I suggest you read Christopher Hitchins work "God Is Not Great", (which I have) Dawkins "God Delusion " (which I have), studied history to a good level. Socialism does not demand obediance, it offers a political view point that can change over time along with all political ideologies. Only religion stays the same. Also if I decide not to become a socialist Richard Corbin will not come to my house and threaten to condemn me to an eternity of pain and torture. Also I can switch from socialism to conservatism if I wish and can do so in the knowledge that the politcal leadership will not issue me with a death penalty / fatwa and or excommunication.

 

Also why should I love my neighbour,  I will love whoever i choose and not be dictated to by some religous doctrine.  My neighbour might be an arsehole who deals drugs  and play gangster rap at 2 am. To suggest I am unthinking is rediculous, my posts prove that i have researched this topic to some degree, and it is typical of people of faith to throw biblical quotes as a weapon to make their points due to their own inability to ...ahem think for themselves. My original question that I posed still remains unanswered.

 

Did you miss the entirety of the 20th century?

Socialism killed far more than any religion did in the 20th century exactly because it did murder and kill people who did change their mind or who simply dared to have a different political viewpoints and despite championing atheism. Because it was an unmoving ideology exactly how religion is and once people decide they're a particular political ideology, most people camp that way and never move from it for life - that's what causes fanatical thinking and murderous people, not belief in a creator - political ideology often just preaches utopia on Earth rather than after death and uses exactly the same psychological tricks in exactly the same way.

As others have said - you take religion away and other things will just come in and take its place - religion did this up until the 20th century, then socialism and fascism were the religions of in the 20th century prompting utopia on earth rather than after death - currently AI is getting a dangerous pseudo-religious aura around it with people preaching the labour-less utopia it could bring about and even the potential ability to upload our consciouness to a cloud after death - chasing utopia through AI could easily just replace religion or political ideology during the 21st century.

 

[Parafox]

9 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Did you miss the entirety of the 20th century?

Socialism killed far more than any religion did in the 20th century exactly because it did murder and kill people who did change their mind or who simply dared to have a different political viewpoints and despite championing atheism. Because it was an unmoving ideology exactly how religion is and once people decide they're a particular political ideology, most people camp that way and never move from it for life - that's what causes fanatical thinking and murderous people, not belief in a creator - political ideology often just preaches utopia on Earth rather than after death and uses exactly the same psychological tricks in exactly the same way.

As others have said - you take religion away and other things will just come in and take its place - religion did this up until the 20th century, then socialism and fascism were the religions of in the 20th century prompting utopia on earth rather than after death - currently AI is getting a dangerous pseudo-religious aura around it with people preaching the labour-less utopia it could bring about and even the potential ability to upload our consciouness to a cloud after death - chasing utopia through AI could easily just replace religion or political ideology during the 21st century.

 

I get what you're saying but it would have been easier to understand if it had been grammatically better and punctuated properly. Just saying...

 

Plus, is AI "artificial Intelligence"? if so how is that affecting religious belief? I may be wrong, but you're not making a great argument if people like me can't understand it.

Edited 21 April 2019 by Parafox

[String fellow]

Following the wave of sympathy expressed for the 50 victims of the NZ attack, can we expect something similar following today's attacks in Sri Lanka, which killed 4 times as many people? Why do I suspect that the answer will be no?

[Buce]

23 minutes ago, String fellow said:

Following the wave of sympathy expressed for the 50 victims of the NZ attack, can we expect something similar following today's attacks in Sri Lanka, which killed 4 times as many people? Why do I suspect that the answer will be no?

 

 

Is that rhetorical or are you going to enlighten us?

[The Quick Brown Fox]

Unfortunately, whilst we have money and religion in the world there will be random killings and wars. 

Funny that all religions promote acceptance and tolerance. 

[Nickfosse]

6 hours ago, sishades said:

I suggest you read Christopher Hitchins work "God Is Not Great", (which I have) Dawkins "God Delusion " (which I have), studied history to a good level. Socialism does not demand obediance, it offers a political view point that can change over time along with all political ideologies. Only religion stays the same. Also if I decide not to become a socialist Richard Corbin will not come to my house and threaten to condemn me to an eternity of pain and torture. Also I can switch from socialism to conservatism if I wish and can do so in the knowledge that the politcal leadership will not issue me with a death penalty / fatwa and or excommunication.

 

Also why should I love my neighbour,  I will love whoever i choose and not be dictated to by some religous doctrine.  My neighbour might be an arsehole who deals drugs  and play gangster rap at 2 am. To suggest I am unthinking is rediculous, my posts prove that i have researched this topic to some degree, and it is typical of people of faith to throw biblical quotes as a weapon to make their points due to their own inability to ...ahem think for themselves. My original question that I posed still remains unanswered.

 

And yet in a thousand years time I’d wager that millions will still be gathering on Easter Sunday to celebrate Resurrection, and the books of Hitchens and Dawkins will be minor footnotes at best and most likely utterly forgotten. 

Maybe you’re right and they’re all delusional, or maybe they’re tapping into deep spiritual wells that speak deep truth. 

[Filbert_Ross]

40 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Is that rhetorical or are you going to enlighten us?

I was intrigued by that comment also. 

[Buce]

13 minutes ago, Filbert_Ross said:

I was intrigued by that comment also. 

 

Oh, I know what he's getting at.

 

I just want to see if he has the courage to say it out loud.

[the fox]

Think the thought of a single man who can buy 5 weapons legally (2 of them are semiautomatic), stream it on a massive platform like Facebook like it's a video game and just kill 50 and injury another 50 is far more terrifying for everyone IMO.

 

A man can pretty much obtain a soldier's set legally and just open fire on anyone.

 

 

Anyways, I feel for the families of the victims and the victims themselves. People go to their place of worship to get some peace of mind and instead they get killed like that.

 

 

Don't like how the thread turned to religion vs atheism instead of acknowledging such a sad event.

 

Edited 21 April 2019 by the fox

[Fightforever]

Why does religion and antheism have to be at odds. We can learn from each other. 

[Sampson]

3 hours ago, browniefox said:

Unfortunately, whilst we have money and religion in the world there will be random killings and wars. 

Funny that all religions promote acceptance and tolerance. 

Almost all wars are ultimately down to (both physical and emotional) resources and there not being enough of particular resources to go around when you dig down far enough (or at least that people don't perceive themselves as having enough of a resource) - the same reason most fights between cavemen with sticks long before religion and money are the same reasons people fight with industrial weapons.

 

Money, religion and ideology are just easy excuses or things people latch onto because they feel angry or alienated to try and give them peace of mind or acceptence - but they're not the real reason driving the anger or alienation that causes these things - perceived lack of particular resources are.

 

There's always going to be not enough of certain resources to go around unfortunately though, unless there is some technologies to fabricate it (although in recent years we've seen the issues technology and social media can bring  with regards to people feeling alienated by not feeling like they're living their perfect lives that others have artificially created with their perfect online personas).

 

I've never been a religious person though I've friends who are and have been inside many cathedrals, churches, mosques and synagogues while travelling and it's easy to see why people who are angry and alienated would especially latch onto it  - they're designed to be peaceful places where people meet up once a week and make lifelong friends and I can see why it helps give people peace of mind - most people this really helps, but a small number go the other way and use it as an "us and them" thing and go round killing people (all this can be said about political ideologies too and people who join political parties).

 

So I don't know why I'd take that sense of community and lifelong friendships away from billions of people round the earth because a tiny fraction of a fraction of angry wankers use it as an excuse to go out and kill people. It's just the nature of the beast really though - the exact types people who are most likely to turn to be religion and be helped by it are also  many of the same types of people who are going to start wars and go on murderous rampages.

Edited 21 April 2019 by Sampson

[String fellow]

Thank you to all who picked up on my post. Without expanding upon it too much, I note that the bloodshed in Sri Lanka isn't mentioned at all in the 'Also in the News' thread, and has only been referred to here in a small way. Compare that with the long thread emanating from the NZ bloodshed, and my point does seem to be borne out.