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[Guest MattP]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

So you agree that he fvcked up?  That it was correct to call him out?  Then I really can't understand how you're concluding that an unnecessary loss of Kurdish and Turkish lives with Turkey annexing a part of Syria before calling it quits on their own terms constitutes the libs being destroyed for raising very legitimate complaints.

 

It's not just 'the left' who have a problem with introspection.

Of course he ****ed up.

 

If you remember the Trump thread the two reasons I said I couldn't vote for him were his excessive borrowing and the fact America will completely retreat from the World stage.

 

I hope those on the right and left now realise what can happen when they demand the USA just ignores it's role in global protectionism - that includes his possible scepticism on NATO.

[Carl the Llama]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Of course he ****ed up.

 

If you remember the Trump thread the two reasons I said I couldn't vote for him were his excessive borrowing and the fact America will completely retreat from the World stage.

 

I hope those on the right and left now realise what can happen when they demand the USA just ignores it's role in global protectionism - that includes his possible scepticism on NATO.

We're literally demanding the opposite.

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

We're literally demanding the opposite.

Exactly my point. The people who for years have demanded they get out of everywhere should look at this and see the potential consequences.

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, MattP said:

Exactly my point. The people who for years have demanded they get out of everywhere should look at this and see the potential consequences.

I believe that not wanting unnecessary wars waged and wanting troops that are presently maintaining peace in volatile zones to continue doing so are not mutually exclusive concepts.  If anybody's called for a mass withdrawal of all US forces from all conflict zones then they're obviously an idiot.

[Carl the Llama]

This video is 'old' news (5 months) so apologies if it's already been covered but I've only just seen it.  Paints the damning reality of the Tangerine Dream's great economic policies.

Now obviously the Fanta Menace isn't directly responsible for the shitty handling of the situation but he is responsible for making grand promises to his voters then failing horribly to keep them.  He is responsible for making the CEOs richer while the poor who he campaigned as a champion of continue to suffer.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

I believe that not wanting unnecessary wars waged and wanting troops that are presently maintaining peace in volatile zones to continue doing so are not mutually exclusive concepts.  If anybody's called for a mass withdrawal of all US forces from all conflict zones then they're obviously an idiot.

But Carl, seeing things as a dichotomy on this matter makes for a much easier strawman to burn down - you shouldn't get in the way of that, right?

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

I believe that not wanting unnecessary wars waged and wanting troops that are presently maintaining peace in volatile zones to continue doing so are not mutually exclusive concepts.  If anybody's called for a mass withdrawal of all US forces from all conflict zones then they're obviously an idiot.

Of course, hence why I said both sides should think about it.

 

You are doing that thing again now where are you trying to get in an argument despite actually agreeing with the person you are talking to.

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50090538

 

Can't say that I'm sad that someone so in hock to the fossil fuel industry is going.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-50094679/james-mattis-mocks-donald-trump-at-gala-dinner

 

"I earned my spurs on the battlefield... and Donald Trump earned his spurs in a letter from a doctor."

 

Mattis not holding back now, then.

[Carl the Llama]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Of course, hence why I said both sides should think about it.

 

You are doing that thing again now where are you trying to get in an argument despite actually agreeing with the person you are talking to.

At the risk of confirming your bias, I don't think I am. 

 

My initial response was to question what exactly you were laughing about given that the criticism posted on here which Trump totally pwned by masterfully arranging a ceasefire turned out to be justified and the ceasefire not so masterful, as you've acknowledged.  I still don't understand what's so funny tbh because instead of answering the question you moved deftly on to the point about people demanding the USA ignore its role, which I again felt doesn't ring true because nobody that I know of asked for that. Maybe you know of some high profile politicians who have been arguing for unilateral withdrawal in which case fair enough, but it's not an opinion I've seen expressed on here (I stand to be corrected) so it's not really relevant to the discussion we were having.  Perhaps I'm missing something.

 

I'm glad we agree that the USA has its responsibilities towards maintaining global stability and that it shouldn't go around starting needless conflicts, but I disagree with the way you've structured your argument if that's your core point.

[leicsmac]

https://twitter.com/anadoluagency/status/1184421345041342464?s=21

 

Really, Mr Erdogan?

 

I believe the Armenians might have a different story.

[Carl the Llama]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50090538

 

Can't say that I'm sad that someone so in hock to the fossil fuel industry is going.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-50094679/james-mattis-mocks-donald-trump-at-gala-dinner

 

"I earned my spurs on the battlefield... and Donald Trump earned his spurs in a letter from a doctor."

 

Mattis not holding back now, then.

"The Meryl Streep of generals".

[bovril]

12 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

https://twitter.com/anadoluagency/status/1184421345041342464?s=21

 

Really, Mr Erdogan?

 

I believe the Armenians might have a different story.

Not only Armenians. 

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, bovril said:

Not only Armenians. 

I'm sure that it isn't.

[Finnaldo]

5 hours ago, MattP said:

 

Within a few minutes of each other.

Well Matt, if you’re kind enough to read on...

 

”The alternative take to this...”

 

You posted in absolutes and I showed there’s a flip side. 
 

You’re clever enough to comprehend this mate.

[Carl the Llama]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/erdogan-turkey-trump-letter-syria-ceasefire-latest-response-a9161626.html

Sigh.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7587357/Distressing-footage-emerges-children-chemical-burns-Syria.html

And somehow it gets worse.  I just don't know what to say.

[MC Prussian]

4 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/erdogan-turkey-trump-letter-syria-ceasefire-latest-response-a9161626.html

Sigh.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7587357/Distressing-footage-emerges-children-chemical-burns-Syria.html

And somehow it gets worse.  I just don't know what to say.

Horrific images. Reminiscent of the Vietnam War.

Begs the question who supplied Turkey with these kinds of weapons in the first place. I'd place my bets on the usual suspects.

And where's the UN when you need them?

[MC Prussian]

11 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

This video is 'old' news (5 months) so apologies if it's already been covered but I've only just seen it.  Paints the damning reality of the Tangerine Dream's great economic policies.

Now obviously the Fanta Menace isn't directly responsible for the shitty handling of the situation but he is responsible for making grand promises to his voters then failing horribly to keep them.  He is responsible for making the CEOs richer while the poor who he campaigned as a champion of continue to suffer.

Exactly, Trump isn't responsible for the shitty way these people were treated by their own company or (indirectly) by General Motors.

 

It's difficult to say whether Trump enabled General Motors to move plants down to Mexico or not; on that management level, such a decision isn't often made overnight, so one could assume it was made (way) before Trump held his speech. And I'm not an expert to see how Trump could prevent GM from moving parts of its production abroad.

 

In the end, it's a highly regrettable move and you can't but feel for these particular workers. However, since Trump's inauguration, Ohio's unemployment rate on the whole has gone down from 5.2% to 4.1%.

And as most economists will tell you, bringing the rate down by a percent at these low levels is an achievement in itself.

Sacrifice a few (hundred) for the benefit of many (thousands).

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, MC Prussian said:

Horrific images. Reminiscent of the Vietnam War.

Begs the question who supplied Turkey with these kinds of weapons in the first place. I'd place my bets on the usual suspects.

And where's the UN when you need them?

I imagine there are members of the security council who would veto any UN involvement.

 

1 hour ago, MC Prussian said:

Exactly, Trump isn't responsible for the shitty way these people were treated by their own company or (indirectly) by General Motors.

 

It's difficult to say whether Trump enabled General Motors to move plants down to Mexico or not; on that management level, such a decision isn't often made overnight, so one could assume it was made (way) before Trump held his speech. And I'm not an expert to see how Trump could prevent GM from moving parts of its production abroad.

 

In the end, it's a highly regrettable move and you can't but feel for these particular workers. However, since Trump's inauguration, Ohio's unemployment rate on the whole has gone down from 5.2% to 4.1%.

And as most economists will tell you, bringing the rate down by a percent at these low levels is an achievement in itself.

Sacrifice a few (hundred) for the benefit of many (thousands).

It's a few thousand for a few more thousand to be more accurate.  But that is good news though it only tells a bit of the story.  For instance on job creation, which was the key part of his promise, he's actually slowed the nation down (188k p/m vs 217k p/m under incompetent Barry).  Labour force participation was at 62.9% when he took office and it's swung between 62.7 and 63.2% since, currently it's back at the top end of that bracket but past results suggest it won't hold, this relative lack of movement implies that a sustained drop unemployment could be largely explained by an increase in unemployed people no longer declared looking for work within the past 4 weeks as per the federal definition.  To make matters worse, after being boosted by rocketing national debt, the growth rate is now showing signs of slowing which is not what you want when that debt is still rising apace.

 

 

You'll be pleased to hear though that corporate profits are up 6.9% and and oil production has increased by 33.6% since the walking sunbed accident took office.

Edited 19 October 2019 by Carl the Llama

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-berkshire-50094551

 

How unfortunate.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50103605

 

Good grief, even McConnell is going off-message now.

[Guest MattP]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50104958

 

Classy stuff

[MC Prussian]

8 hours ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-berkshire-50094551

 

How unfortunate.

Classy, bowing to minority politics.

Companies can donate to whomever they want to, no matter how "offended" one may be.

I thought the Salvation Army, for instance, were a decent non-profit organisation, offering services to the poor and elderly? What's wrong with youth homes?

Granted, the religious aspect of it I could do without, but at least these entities are trying to help people who are having a rough time. How is that "hostile? 

 

Besides, nobody's forcing people to eat at Chick-fil-A.

[MC Prussian]

4 hours ago, MattP said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50104958

 

Classy stuff

I've referred to this bit a bit earlier in this thread:

Whom are these people here working for? And then casually chuckling at the very same thought... This is what CNN has become.

[MC Prussian]

10 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

I imagine there are members of the security council who would veto any UN involvement.

 

It's a few thousand for a few more thousand to be more accurate.  But that is good news though it only tells a bit of the story.  For instance on job creation, which was the key part of his promise, he's actually slowed the nation down (188k p/m vs 217k p/m under incompetent Barry).  Labour force participation was at 62.9% when he took office and it's swung between 62.7 and 63.2% since, currently it's back at the top end of that bracket but past results suggest it won't hold, this relative lack of movement implies that a sustained drop unemployment could be largely explained by an increase in unemployed people no longer declared looking for work within the past 4 weeks as per the federal definition.  To make matters worse, after being boosted by rocketing national debt, the growth rate is now showing signs of slowing which is not what you want when that debt is still rising apace.

 

 

You'll be pleased to hear though that corporate profits are up 6.9% and and oil production has increased by 33.6% since the walking sunbed accident took office.

You're using labour force as an indicator here; in comparison, Obama's stats are way worse - down from 66 to 62 percent in between 2010 and 2016:

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/labor-force-participation-rate

 

For context, in the same time frame, the US population has grown by another 18 million people (309 to 327 million); trying to integrate all these new people (which I suspect are mostly immigrants, thus mostly adults) into the job market is a task in itself. Which also puts the job creation numbers in a different light. And Forbes research tell a somewhat different story here also:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/08/02/july-marks-94-months-of-continuous-u-s-job-creation-infographic/#14787a8d2d66

Edited 19 October 2019 by MC Prussian

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Classy, bowing to minority politics.

Companies can donate to whomever they want to, no matter how "offended" one may be.

I thought the Salvation Army, for instance, were a decent non-profit organisation, offering services to the poor and elderly? What's wrong with youth homes?

Granted, the religious aspect of it I could do without, but at least these entities are trying to help people who are having a rough time. How is that "hostile? 

 

Besides, nobody's forcing people to eat at Chick-fil-A.

Yeah, but donating to a charity that then backs a regime that wants the genocide of a particular demographic within their borders isn't a particularly good look IMO.

[MC Prussian]

55 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, but donating to a charity that then backs a regime that wants the genocide of a particular demographic within their borders isn't a particularly good look IMO.

Yeah, but that wasn't the point the BBC article you quoted was making, was it?

It's Reading Pride vs. Chick-fil-A.

 

Explain the charity bit, because that's not mentioned in the article. Sources, details.