Greatest England Player

[Lionator]

Love him or hate him, Harry Kane is in there for me.

[gerblod]

21 hours ago, Vlad the Fox said:

 

 

At least you can say you were there. 
 

My dad said he nearly smashed the tv when that equaliser went in, jumped in the air and kicked his leg out and then watched in horror as his shoe flew off his foot towards the tv. Thankfully it just missed. 
 

I bought the house off him about 14 years ago, had him round the night it was confirmed we won the league. At the final whistle I said “well you e watched us win the World Cup and City the premier league in this house now” he looked emotional and just nodded.

Dads, eh. Mine was an ex-POW who stayed on in England after the war. I think he really wanted to return to Germany, but found himself married with a couple of kids. He used to go down to Filbert Street before I came along. I took him to see the 1982 cup game against Shrewsbury.

 

He never lived to see the reunification. I've always been compromised in my loyalties between England and Germany. He never encouraged me to affiliate to Germany, but I did anyway.

 

I supported Holland through the 1974 WC. They were high on the list of great teams, but dad was disappointed I didn't favour Germany during the final - which they won. I've always appreciated football for its own sake - Brazil in 1970 and France in 1998 and the Galacticos and Barcelona of the Messi years. 

 

I'm glad for you and him that you shared City's race to the title.

[Foxdiamond]

Did anyone pick up the Lineker discussion bringing up that Bale may be the greatest British player. Did I hear right when he suggested ever?  Surely not serious

[Foxdiamond]

On 29/11/2022 at 06:55, gerblod said:

Dads, eh. Mine was an ex-POW who stayed on in England after the war. I think he really wanted to return to Germany, but found himself married with a couple of kids. He used to go down to Filbert Street before I came along. I took him to see the 1982 cup game against Shrewsbury.

 

He never lived to see the reunification. I've always been compromised in my loyalties between England and Germany. He never encouraged me to affiliate to Germany, but I did anyway.

 

I supported Holland through the 1974 WC. They were high on the list of great teams, but dad was disappointed I didn't favour Germany during the final - which they won. I've always appreciated football for its own sake - Brazil in 1970 and France in 1998 and the Galacticos and Barcelona of the Messi years. 

 

I'm glad for you and him that you shared City's race to the title.

Gerd Muller what a goalscorer

[gerblod]

17 hours ago, Foxdiamond said:

Gerd Müller - what a goalscorer.

Him and Uwe Seeler - similar styles (except their hairstyles, of course). His fans nicknamed him 'Der Bomber'  - I'm not sure why - perhaps because he was lightning fast at a short range - like a Stuka. Him, Lineker, Law and Daglish were all goal poachers. I'd bet they wish they had another Müller in their team now.

Incidentally, Müller is the most common German surname - means miller, of course, whereas Smith (Schmidt) is England's.

[gerblod]

18 hours ago, Foxdiamond said:

Did anyone pick up the Lineker discussion bringing up that Bale may be the greatest British player. Did I hear right when he suggested ever?  Surely not serious

Agreed. George Best has to be counted as one of the international greats. Bale has never emulated Best.

John Charles was held to be a complete player - as a centre-forward and a central defender. Juventus fans still worship him. Daglish was also in the stratosphere of all-time greats I don't believe Bale has had the commitment to football necessary to become an 'all-timer'.

[CosbehFox]

20 hours ago, Foxdiamond said:

Did anyone pick up the Lineker discussion bringing up that Bale may be the greatest British player. Did I hear right when he suggested ever?  Surely not serious

He has a decent case for it. He's won the Champions League five times 

[Foxdiamond]

2 hours ago, gerblod said:

Him and Uwe Seeler - similar styles (except their hairstyles, of course). His fans nicknamed him 'Der Bomber'  - I'm not sure why - perhaps because he was lightning fast at a short range - like a Stuka. Him, Lineker, Law and Daglish were all goal poachers. I'd bet they wish they had another Müller in their team now.

Incidentally, Müller is the most common German surname - means miller, of course, whereas Smith (Schmidt) is England's.

Yes, I think Lineker was our Muller. Denis Law of course well known to Leicester fans of a certain age. On German names I understand Weber of 1966 fame means Weaver.

[Foxdiamond]

2 hours ago, gerblod said:

Agreed. George Best has to be counted as one of the international greats. Bale has never emulated Best.

John Charles was held to be a complete player - as a centre-forward and a central defender. Juventus fans still worship him. Daglish was also in the stratosphere of all-time greats I don't believe Bale has had the commitment to football necessary to become an 'all-timer'.

I used to bang on to my younger mates that I was lucky to see Best, Charlton etc play in the flesh. Knew about John Charles but even I am not old enough to see him play. Dalglish was amazing too.

[lildave3]

2 hours ago, gerblod said:

Agreed. George Best has to be counted as one of the international greats. Bale has never emulated Best.

John Charles was held to be a complete player - as a centre-forward and a central defender. Juventus fans still worship him. Daglish was also in the stratosphere of all-time greats I don't believe Bale has had the commitment to football necessary to become an 'all-timer'.

I will never understand why George Best is always hailed as one of the best ever. Whether it’s my age or not, I just don’t get it. 

[CosbehFox]

1 minute ago, lildave3 said:

I will never understand why George Best is always hailed as one of the best ever. Whether it’s my age or not, I just don’t get it. 

The shame for Best is people tend to remember the second half of his career far more than the first. 

 

He won the Ballon d'or in 68 after United won the European Cup. That final in particular he was superb. 

 

His goalscoring record from 67-68 onwards in all comps was:-

67/68 - 32 goals in 53

68/69 - 22 goals in 55

69/70 - 23 goals in 53

70/71 - 21 goals in 40

71/72 - 26 goals in 53 

 

 

[Foxdiamond]

54 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

He has a decent case for it. He's won the Champions League five times 

Certainly not to be sniffed at. Just don't think  Bale will be remembered in same way as George Best or Bobby Charlton for example

[CosbehFox]

2 hours ago, gerblod said:

Agreed. George Best has to be counted as one of the international greats. Bale has never emulated Best.

John Charles was held to be a complete player - as a centre-forward and a central defender. Juventus fans still worship him. Daglish was also in the stratosphere of all-time greats I don't believe Bale has had the commitment to football necessary to become an 'all-timer'.

Bale has surpassed Best on career achievement by far.

 

Alongside Bale's three league titles and five European cup victories, he's succeeded in getting his country to three major tournaments. Bale's goals to game ratio at Real Madrid during his peak is incredible - his last spell in English football, he still got 16 goals in 34 games. 

 

 

[CosbehFox]

Just now, Foxdiamond said:

Certainly not to be sniffed at. Just don't think  Bale will be remembered in same way as George Best or Bobby Charlton for example

What is Best remembered for though? The performances between 65 to 71 or the end of his career? He was part of a Manchester United team what got relegated to the second division. 

 

Bale is the greatest Welsh player to have ever lived as much of hero John Charles is. Seems unfair to consider his lack of 'dedication' but not to use that equally against Best. All subjective of course. 

 

Personally, I have Charlton as the best as I said earlier in the thread. 

[Foxdiamond]

3 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

Bale has surpassed Best on career achievement by far.

 

Alongside Bale's three league titles and five European cup victories, he's succeeded in getting his country to three major tournaments. Bale's goals to game ratio at Real Madrid during his peak is incredible - his last spell in English football, he still got 16 goals in 34 games. 

 

 

I think you would have to say the Wales team of recent years is better than the Northern Ireland teams that Best played in. The flair players of the past were subject to getting hacked down and playing on muddy pitches from October onwards.

[Foxdiamond]

6 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

What is Best remembered for though? The performances between 65 to 71 or the end of his career? He was part of a Manchester United team what got relegated to the second division. 

 

Bale is the greatest Welsh player to have ever lived as much of hero John Charles is. Seems unfair to consider his lack of 'dedication' but not to use that equally against Best. All subjective of course. 

 

Personally, I have Charlton as the best as I said earlier in the thread. 

Happy to agree on R Charlton.

[CosbehFox]

8 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

I think you would have to say the Wales team of recent years is better than the Northern Ireland teams that Best played in. The flair players of the past were subject to getting hacked down and playing on muddy pitches from October onwards.

For info, the qualifying records of Northern Ireland in Best career and Bale's for Wales are pretty comparable. It's just Wales could qualify in 2nd position or progress via a playoff which didn't exist between 62-70. 

 

[Greg2607]

34 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

What is Best remembered for though? The performances between 65 to 71 or the end of his career? He was part of a Manchester United team what got relegated to the second division. 

 

Bale is the greatest Welsh player to have ever lived as much of hero John Charles is. Seems unfair to consider his lack of 'dedication' but not to use that equally against Best. All subjective of course. 

 

Personally, I have Charlton as the best as I said earlier in the thread. 

is he though? surely Ryan Giggs runs him Very Very Close. 

[CosbehFox]

12 minutes ago, Greg2607 said:

is he though? surely Ryan Giggs runs him Very Very Close. 

Yeah I'd say so - Giggs never played in an international tournament (and they had near misses during his career) and never had the success in Europe to compliment domestic honours. 

 

Wait there - I know someone who will know @Finnegan - whose the greatest Welsh footballer of all time? 

[ftfagos]

Saw John Charles playing for Merthyr down at George Street in the early seventies. Scored with a header from outside the eighteen yard box. Giant of a man. The greatest for me though is Bobby Moore.

[Fox92]

1 hour ago, CosbehFox said:

The shame for Best is people tend to remember the second half of his career far more than the first. 

 

He won the Ballon d'or in 68 after United won the European Cup. That final in particular he was superb. 

 

His goalscoring record from 67-68 onwards in all comps was:-

67/68 - 32 goals in 53

68/69 - 22 goals in 55

69/70 - 23 goals in 53

70/71 - 21 goals in 40

71/72 - 26 goals in 53 

 

 

I'm pretty sure only Ronaldo, with 33, has scored more goals in one season than Best did with those 32 goals in 67/68?

 

edit: I mean at Man United, of course.

Edited 1 December 2022 by Fox92

[Fox92]

Lineker deserves way more credit than what he gets. To still be our top goalscorer at World Cups despite the fact since then we've had Owen, Rooney, Shearer, Kane is incredible.

[Finnegan]

3 hours ago, Greg2607 said:

is he though? surely Ryan Giggs runs him Very Very Close. 

 

3 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

Yeah I'd say so - Giggs never played in an international tournament (and they had near misses during his career) and never had the success in Europe to compliment domestic honours. 

 

Wait there - I know someone who will know @Finnegan - whose the greatest Welsh footballer of all time? 

 

Obviously John Charles is before my time I can't pretend to have seen much of him but by reputation he was extremely highly regarded as one of the greatest British players of all time. Scored over a hundred goals in hundred fifty odd game for Juventus. 

 

At his prime was recognised as one of the best players on the planet. Literally. 

 

For me, Bale vs Giggs is less straightforward. Obviously for Wales specifically, its clearly Bale. 

 

But domestically? I would say Bale at his absolute best was a better player than Giggs at his. He's more technically capable, Giggs was fast but Bale had even more pace and power. I think people have forgotten already just how insanely good Bale was at his absolute best because this weird situation he's had for the last five or so years has tarnished how people view him. 

 

What I would say is that Giggs was obviously blessed with a much more durable pair of legs. He had far fewer injuries and as such his best years lasted longer. He also had probably better footballing intelligence as a playmaker and was able to adjust his game as his pace declined in a way that sustained his career. Although, let's be honest, he's fortunate that he was at a major club where he was loved and was part of the furniture. 

 

So for me personally, I think it's still Bale. But I understand people that say Giggs. 

 

Side note: shout out to Aaron Ramsey who still never truly gets the respect he deserves. If it wasn't for also having papier mache legs he might have been another widely agreed to be truly world class. Was one of the best players at the tournament in Euro 16 and probably one of the most gifted centre mids the UK has produced in my lifetime. 

 

Edited 1 December 2022 by Finnegan

[gerblod]

20 hours ago, lildave3 said:

I will never understand why George Best is always hailed as one of the best ever. Whether it’s my age or not, I just don’t get it. 

I've posted this account before, but it might help you to understand his rep.

 

Nuneaton Borough had a fund-raising match against Coventry City in March 1983. The Cov. side were to beat Spurs in the Cup in 1987 so they were no slouches.

 

By some miracle Nuneaton had got Bestie to turn up for them. He was 36 and well overweight. He was on the wagon at the time, so his head and body were functioning well.

 

He played midfield and he bossed the game.

It surprised me, because I'd always thought of him as a striker, but here he was shaking of tackles from what were a very tough First Division side and making sublime passes - on a wet night on a pretty shitty pitch.

 

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/nuneaton-george-best-nuneaton-borough-15930557

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

On 28/11/2022 at 10:21, Lionator said:

Love him or hate him, Harry Kane is in there for me.

His goals per game record doesn't really compare with Nugent.