Also in the News - Part 2

[String fellow]

9 minutes ago, jonathan_ross said:

In much the same fashion the jews were by the romans in all their settlements of the holy land centuries prior to this.

...and the once very large populations of Jews living elsewhere in North Africa and the Middle East until Israel was created, were also made refugees or met a worse fate, according to this Hansard report from 2019. All that, of course, took place after Hitler tried to exterminate them completely in Europe. 

 https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-06-19/debates/F75D29CB-C4C8-447D-A028-1FA05CD3594D/JewishRefugeesFromTheMiddleEastAndNorthAfrica 

[leicsmac]

Anyhow, on this topic:

 

IMO current atrocity justified by historical atrocity does nothing but guarantee future atrocity. No matter who is carrying it out and whatever the history may have been.

Edited 8 October 2023 by leicsmac

[Mickyblueeyes]

14 minutes ago, jonathan_ross said:

Whatever atrocities Israel are committing in retaliation to Gaza after this latest series of attacks I doubt they will involve breaking into homes murdering children in front of their mothers.

 

 

Why would you doubt that ?

[Raj]

If Jesus was alive which side would he be on considering it was the jews who killed  him? (allegedly!)

[jonathan_ross]

33 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Why would you doubt that ?

I could never doubt it completely as I can never be an eye witness but you would hold hope as violence in Judaism is typically retaliative and doesn’t involve the same brutality practiced in certain religious groups still in 2023.

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 October 2023 by jonathan_ross

[st albans fox]

28 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Why would you doubt that ?

it will happen but it will happen as a consequence of Israeli soldiers fighting in Gaza trying to find hostages or Hamas fighters. it won’t be a deliberate act for the sake of it as happened yesterday.  Of course you could argue that knowingly going into Gaza and fighting house to house will lead to deaths of women and children (as collateral - hate that phrase) 

 

i wonder how Hamas are going to deal with the civilian hostages they have taken back into Gaza.  they surely have enough military ones to use as bargaining chips to release prisoners held in Israeli jails - they  should release these civilians urgently - it’s abhorrent to have taken mothers with their children and hold them ‘as pawns’.   

[st albans fox]

6 minutes ago, Raj said:

If Jesus was alive which side would he be on considering it was the jews who killed  him? (allegedly!)

I think you’ll find it was the romans who crucified him …. 
he wouldn’t pick a side - he was a prophet of peace and forgiveness. 

Edited 8 October 2023 by st albans fox

[Mickyblueeyes]

2 minutes ago, jonathan_ross said:

I could never doubt it completely as I can never be an eye witness but you would hold hope as violence in Judaism is typically retaliative and doesn’t involve the same brutality practiced in certain religious groups still in 2023.

 

 

 

 

Not even going get into that debate. 

[Raj]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

I think you’ll find it was the romans who crucified him …. 

Didnt the Jews arrest him first?

 

 

 

[breadandcheese]

1 hour ago, FoxesDeb said:

So the western world came along and told three quarters of a million Arab people to either move, or be moved? I'm ready to be educated but how can that be right?

This is wrong.

 

In 1947, a partition plan was presented by UN to partition what was the British mandate land (Israel, West Bank and Gaza) into two countries with Jerusalem given a special status under international administration.

 

The land was divided up based on population. So predominantly Arab areas would become part of Palestine. The Jewish population areas and remaining land (mainly the desert bits that people had been unable to settle due to harsh conditions) becoming part of a Jewish state.

 

The Jewish leadership accepted, the Arab leadership refused. So the plan was dead. 

 

In 1948, Britain pulled out as they wanted rid of being in charge. Israel declared independence (but really, there was no defined borders at this stage as all plans had been refused and he situation was going to war). After the war, a ceasefire was declared creating the borders we know today. Egypt controlled Gaza. Jordan controlled the West Bank. Israel the bit in the middle.

 

but importantly, it's inaccurate to say the Western powers told three quarters of a millions people to leave.

 

 

[Mickyblueeyes]

2 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

it will happen but it will happen as a consequence of Israeli soldiers fighting in Gaza trying to find hostages or Hamas fighters. it won’t be a deliberate act for the sake of it as happened yesterday.  Of course you could argue that knowingly going into Gaza and fighting house to house will lead to deaths of women and children (as collateral - hate that phrase) 

 

i wonder how Hamas are going to deal with the civilian hostages they have taken back into Gaza.  they surely have enough military ones to use as bargaining chips to release prisoners held in Israeli jails - they  should release these civilians urgently - it’s abhorrent to have taken mothers with their children and hold them ‘as pawns’.   

There’s enough out there to suggest otherwise. I’m sorry but to pretend that the IDF have any sort of morals which differ significantly from Hamas because they happen to wear a uniform is ridiculous. The Human Rights Watch called them out as child killers just a few months ago. 

This conflict is ****ed up. The combatants on both sides lost their moral high ground years ago. It’s the every day people who suffer but the brutality of the combatants will leave water in the eyes. I remind you, Hamas went to war with the PLO not that long ago. There is going to be carnage and a quick search on Twitter on the atrocities already committed by both is frightening.

[st albans fox]

3 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

This is wrong.

 

In 1947, a partition plan was presented by UN to partition what was the British mandate land (Israel, West Bank and Gaza) into two countries with Jerusalem given a special status under international administration.

 

The land was divided up based on population. So predominantly Arab areas would become part of Palestine. The Jewish population areas and remaining land (mainly the desert bits that people had been unable to settle due to harsh conditions) becoming part of a Jewish state.

 

The Jewish leadership accepted, the Arab leadership refused. So the plan was dead. 

 

In 1948, Britain pulled out as they wanted rid of being in charge. Israel declared independence (but really, there was no defined borders at this stage as all plans had been refused and he situation was going to war). After the war, a ceasefire was declared creating the borders we know today. Egypt controlled Gaza. Jordan controlled the West Bank. Israel the bit in the middle.

 

but importantly, it's inaccurate to say the Western powers told three quarters of a millions people to leave.

 

 

Seriously mate - get out of here with your historical facts ! 
 

the irony being that if the Arab countries had never attacked Israel in 1948, 1967 and 1973, there could easily be a flourishing Palestine covering the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip. 
 

 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

This is wrong.

 

In 1947, a partition plan was presented by UN to partition what was the British mandate land (Israel, West Bank and Gaza) into two countries with Jerusalem given a special status under international administration.

 

The land was divided up based on population. So predominantly Arab areas would become part of Palestine. The Jewish population areas and remaining land (mainly the desert bits that people had been unable to settle due to harsh conditions) becoming part of a Jewish state.

 

The Jewish leadership accepted, the Arab leadership refused. So the plan was dead. 

 

In 1948, Britain pulled out as they wanted rid of being in charge. Israel declared independence (but really, there was no defined borders at this stage as all plans had been refused and he situation was going to war). After the war, a ceasefire was declared creating the borders we know today. Egypt controlled Gaza. Jordan controlled the West Bank. Israel the bit in the middle.

 

but importantly, it's inaccurate to say the Western powers told three quarters of a millions people to leave.

 

 

This is right.

 

Instead, during the war the Israelis either forced that three quarters of a million people to leave or they fled, and the Western powers decided to just watch because it was politically expedient to them, even though the partition that led directly to the war was all their idea in the first place.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

Seriously mate - get out of here with your historical facts ! 
 

the irony being that if the Arab countries had never attacked Israel in 1948, 1967 and 1973, there could easily be a flourishing Palestine covering the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip. 
 

Is there any evidence whatsoever that this was even close to a possibility?

[st albans fox]

37 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

There’s enough out there to suggest otherwise. I’m sorry but to pretend that the IDF have any sort of morals which differ significantly from Hamas because they happen to wear a uniform is ridiculous. The Human Rights Watch called them out as child killers just a few months ago. 

This conflict is ****ed up. The combatants on both sides lost their moral high ground years ago. It’s the every day people who suffer but the brutality of the combatants will leave water in the eyes. I remind you, Hamas went to war with the PLO not that long ago. There is going to be carnage and a quick search on Twitter on the atrocities already committed by both is frightening.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-soldiers-arrested-abuse-palestinians-be9a247497d7ede7d7b866f2e725fcfd
 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/21/elor-azaria-israeli-soldier-jailed-18-months-killing-palestinian
 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-05-12/ty-article/.premium/off-duty-israeli-soldier-arrested-on-suspicion-of-shooting-palestinian-in-the-west-bank/00000188-116a-d8d1-aff8-bd7ed3330000
 

Israeli soldier jailed for assaulting Palestinian activist in Hebron https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-64637908
 

There are other instances - the IDF is a professional army with standards and responsibilities.  
 

im sure you will find many where no charges were brought.

 

my point is that to declare equivalence between Hamas fighters and Israeli soldiers when it comes to a lack of professionalism is not a debate I want to have with anyone.  

Edited 8 October 2023 by st albans fox

[Mike Oxlong]

20 minutes ago, Raj said:

If Jesus was alive which side would he be on considering it was the jews who killed  him? (allegedly!)

 

14 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I think you’ll find it was the romans who crucified him …. 
he wouldn’t pick a side - he was a prophet of peace and forgiveness. 

 

12 minutes ago, Raj said:

Didnt the Jews arrest him first?

 

 

 

And for our next question …. 

 

[st albans fox]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Is there any evidence whatsoever that this was even close to a possibility?

Well look at the partition map in 1947 as a start. 
if there were no attacks on Israel then there is no evidence that they would have attacked Jordan or Egypt to take Gaza or the West Bank. It would have been up to Jordan and Egypt if they were prepared to give up those lands to create a Palestinian state over the past seventy years. you’d like to think that they would do this for their Arab brethren. 

[Mickyblueeyes]

3 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

https://apnews.com/article/israel-soldiers-arrested-abuse-palestinians-be9a247497d7ede7d7b866f2e725fcfd
 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/21/elor-azaria-israeli-soldier-jailed-18-months-killing-palestinian
 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-05-12/ty-article/.premium/off-duty-israeli-soldier-arrested-on-suspicion-of-shooting-palestinian-in-the-west-bank/00000188-116a-d8d1-aff8-bd7ed3330000
 

Israeli soldier jailed for assaulting Palestinian activist in Hebron https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-64637908
 

There are other instances 

im sure you will find many where no charges were brought.

 

my point is that to declare equivalence between Hamas fighters and Israeli soldiers when it comes to a lack of professionalism is not a debate I want to have with anyone.  

Nor do I to be honest but the suggestion that the IDF killing would be incidental or collateral was wrong. There are significant problems with combat in that region and any suggestion otherwise is insulting. There are videos already going around of both sides forgetting all moral values or basic human decency. That’s all. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

Well look at the partition map in 1947 as a start. 
if there were no attacks on Israel then there is no evidence that they would have attacked Jordan or Egypt to take Gaza or the West Bank. It would have been up to Jordan and Egypt if they were prepared to give up those lands to create a Palestinian state over the past seventy years. you’d like to think that they would do this for their Arab brethren. 

And if the partition had never gone ahead (or perhaps had been better thought through) in the first place there would have been no attacks wholesale.

 

I know other folks think differently in terms of moral responsibility on this matter, but for me it's simple in that it's a long and sordid history of tit for tat, elements on both sides stink and are awful - and both are running the show right now.

[breadandcheese]

15 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

This is right.

 

Instead, during the war the Israelis either forced that three quarters of a million people to leave or they fled, and the Western powers decided to just watch because it was politically expedient to them, even though the partition that led directly to the war was all their idea in the first place.

 

I know it's not your intention but I dislike the blame the Western powers rhetoric that always comes through.

 

I'm not sure what the West could have done. This is 1948 coming off the back of a devastating world war. It's no wonder that Britain, faced with a huge rebuilding of a country after war, massive war debts and having to help with European construction, wanted to leave it to itself (especially because there was no strategic benefit to Israel/West Bank and Gaza with no oil there). Same goes for an even more destroyed France. And the US has reconstruction in Japan, Europe and the beginnings of the Cold War.

 

At the same time, it wasn't just the West, Russia were part of the UN and were one of the first countries to recognize Israel's declaration of Independence in 1948.

 

So although it's fashionable to blame the West, sometimes, areas are ****ups all by them. The 1947 plan was a reasonable and well thought out plan to a difficult situation.

 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

 

I know it's not your intention but I dislike the blame the Western powers rhetoric that always comes through.

 

I'm not sure what the West could have done. This is 1948 coming off the back of a devastating world war. It's no wonder that Britain, faced with a huge rebuilding of a country after war, massive war debts and having to help with European construction, wanted to leave it to itself (especially because there was no strategic benefit to Israel/West Bank and Gaza with no oil there). Same goes for an even more destroyed France. And the US has reconstruction in Japan, Europe and the beginnings of the Cold War.

 

At the same time, it wasn't just the West, Russia were part of the UN and were one of the first countries to recognize Israel's declaration of Independence in 1948.

 

So although it's fashionable to blame the West, sometimes, areas are ****ups all by them. The 1947 plan was a reasonable and well thought out plan to a difficult situation.

 

Those powers (well, the US and UK) were still by far the most powerful entities in the world and had originated the idea that led to this problem in the first place.

 

So yeah, I'm going to place at least a certain amount of responsibility at their door, and I'm not sure why that wouldn't be justified. Sometimes blaming the big boys isn't rhetoric, it's just accurate.

[breadandcheese]

11 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Those powers (well, the US and UK) were still by far the most powerful entities in the world and had originated the idea that led to this problem in the first place.

 

So yeah, I'm going to place at least a certain amount of responsibility at their door, and I'm not sure why that wouldn't be justified. Sometimes blaming the big boys isn't rhetoric, it's just accurate.

I think your historical revisionism is off.

 

The UK may well have been a world power but judge it of it's time. As I said above, in 1948, the country still had rationing, was attempting to rebuild, massively in debt and helping rebuild the European countries. This was their focus, not what was a tiny piece of land in Middle East with no strategic benefit.

 

The US was a global power but was looking at Russia in the beginning of the Cold War and looking at Japanese reconstruction (less Japan rebuild as a hostile entity).

 

Ultimately, whilst it is shocking that 700,000 people were displaced in 1948 war, you can understand why the Western world and Russia didn't bat an eyelid as three years prior, they had seen far worse displacements within Europe and the Far East. So it wouldn't have registered as anything more than a footnote. That's not to say the world is insensitive but the historical context that the West and Russia, (China as well) had just lived through and what would have shaped attitudes and opinions of the time.

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

I think your historical revisionism is off.

 

The UK may well have been a world power but judge it of it's time. As I said above, in 1948, the country still had rationing, was attempting to rebuild, massively in debt and helping rebuild the European countries. This was their focus, not what was a tiny piece of land in Middle East with no strategic benefit.

 

The US was a global power but was looking at Russia in the beginning of the Cold War and looking at Japanese reconstruction (less Japan rebuild as a hostile entity).

 

Ultimately, whilst it is shocking that 700,000 people were displaced in 1948 war, you can understand why the Western world and Russia didn't bat an eyelid as three years prior, they had seen far worse displacements within Europe and the Far East. So it wouldn't have registered as anything more than a footnote. That's not to say the world is insensitive but the historical context that the West and Russia, (China as well) had just lived through and what would have shaped attitudes and opinions of the time.

Fair enough.

 

We clearly view the matter differently and I don't like the idea of using realpolitik as any kind of justification for the way things have played out given the effects are clearly still being felt today,

 

Of course bigger things were happening at the time, but I don't think that justifies turning a blind eye either. Or if it does, still holding hands up and saying something like "yeah, we're sorry that this is on our watch but our hands are full".

 

If folks think I'm heaping too much moral responsibility on those bigger powers to actually give a shit about those with less power and do something to help, then fair enough too - so it goes.

Edited 8 October 2023 by leicsmac

[st albans fox]

Reports that 260 bodies recovered from the music festival not far from the Gaza border. I think this is the largest single terror attack on a location since ISIS Sinai mosque attack in November 2017 

[Wymsey]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

Reports that 260 bodies recovered from the music festival not far from the Gaza border. I think this is the largest single terror attack on a location since ISIS Sinai mosque attack in November 2017 

What's happened to them?