Will Alves

[Gamble92]

1 hour ago, CosbehFox said:

That's illustrative to how he's in and out of the U21s plus barely got a kick in pre-season. Clubs needed to see that he was fully fit. As it stands the only football he appears to be consistently getting is England youth stuff. 

 

Clearly we aren't doing enough either to make the right links with the right person for loanees too. 

You imagine how many players of the same stature there are as Will Alves. Then how many haven't had ACL injuries and are playing week in week out for their Academy team. It isn't a shock that clubs chose to go for others.

 

We really need to stop this ridiculous hyperbole just because someone on a podcast wants him to play. 

[CosbehFox]

43 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

You imagine how many players of the same stature there are as Will Alves. Then how many haven't had ACL injuries and are playing week in week out for their Academy team. It isn't a shock that clubs chose to go for others.

 

We really need to stop this ridiculous hyperbole just because someone on a podcast wants him to play. 

I accept your view but there aren’t though. He’s an England Under 20s international. 
 

If we look at their latest squad of 24, 10 are on loan at other clubs.
 

While, of the others, only six aren’t featuring regularly for their club side. Interestingly three of those are at Chelsea or Manchester City. The other two are goalkeepers. 
 

The club are failing him. He needs to play. He needs game time and he’s getting neither U21s level or competitive. 

Edited 24 September 2024 by CosbehFox

[filbertway]

18 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

I accept your view but there aren’t though. He’s an England Under 20s international. 
 

If we look at their latest squad of 24, 10 are on loan at other clubs.
 

While, of the others, only six aren’t featuring regularly for their club side. Interestingly three of those are at Chelsea or Manchester City. The other two are goalkeepers. 
 

The club are failing him. He needs to play. He needs game time and he’s getting neither U21s level or competitive. 

I'd have thought Barnsley or Birmingham would have been brilliant choices. I think Birmingham have hit their max allocation of loans now though. A top end league one club with the opportunity for us to reassess in Jan would have been what I'd have been targeting. Any kind of senior football for 3/4 months would be an improvement on him stagnating here to be honest.

 

If you work for a company that has a culture of no accountability though, why go above and beyond to forge those relationships that would come in so handy..

[Ric Flair]

2 hours ago, Gamble92 said:

You imagine how many players of the same stature there are as Will Alves. Then how many haven't had ACL injuries and are playing week in week out for their Academy team. It isn't a shock that clubs chose to go for others.

 

We really need to stop this ridiculous hyperbole just because someone on a podcast wants him to play. 

You bloody well put your hand up and ask politely if you want to use my name in vain directly or indirectly.

 

@CosbehFox has done the hard work for me, I was going to say something similar. The hyperbole isn't just from gobshites like myself, The Mercury regularly focus articles on him, our local press regularly ask our current and previous managers questions on him in their weekly press conferences and interviews.

 

Not to mention the club dishing out a long term contract that they seldom do with academy players.

 

He's seen as one of the most talented U20 players in England, we need to be harnessing that potential in the best way possible and that's not by him barely playing any football after missing 18 mo the of what was a one way ticket to making it.

[Gamble92]

18 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

You bloody well put your hand up and ask politely if you want to use my name in vain directly or indirectly.

 

@CosbehFox has done the hard work for me, I was going to say something similar. The hyperbole isn't just from gobshites like myself, The Mercury regularly focus articles on him, our local press regularly ask our current and previous managers questions on him in their weekly press conferences and interviews.

 

Not to mention the club dishing out a long term contract that they seldom do with academy players.

 

He's seen as one of the most talented U20 players in England, we need to be harnessing that potential in the best way possible and that's not by him barely playing any football after missing 18 mo the of what was a one way ticket to making it.

I do usually agree with a lot you say on the podcast and you speak a lot better than a lot on here that's for sure. But I do think the Cooper take is way too much too early and you've gone down a bit of a rabbit hole with the Alves stuff.

 

We put out a strong side for Tranmere. All over the pitch. I'm not of the opinion that these games are throwaways and clearly Cooper isn't either. You basically give Tranmere a free hit if you play 11 u23s. 

 

If Cooper has kept us up and is still doing the same in the cup next year then I'm fully on board with what you're saying. I just don't think he has the luxury of playing them and risking losing. It amplifies the chance of losing his job. 

[Tuna]

Puzzling we didn't loan him out if we aren't going to use him.

[Tommy G]

I suspect he will get some mins tonight similar to Tranmere. His agent should push for a loan move to a Championship/League one club at Christmas if he doesnt get much more opportunities. 

[TheGoldenGod]

2 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

I suspect he will get some mins tonight similar to Tranmere. His agent should push for a loan move to a Championship/League one club at Christmas if he doesnt get much more opportunities. 

Genuinely believe it should be a decent championship move, or give him minutes in the 1st team more regularly. He's better than league one for me already (possibly biased).

[brookfox]

34 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

… ask politely if you want to use my name in vain directly or indirectly. 

My brain couldn’t decide whether I should read this in the voice of Will Smith of Jules Winnfield!

[Tommy G]

Just now, TheGoldenGod said:

Genuinely believe it should be a decent championship move, or give him minutes in the 1st team more regularly. He's better than league one for me already (possibly biased).

I think the second half of the season would prove that. He's only ever played at U21 level so far apart from the odd cameo. 

 

If he was that good he would be playing, hes not 17 he's 19 now. Look where Bellingham was at 19, or Rooney, Stevie G etc.

 

If he rips up League 1, then he will be nicely ready for us in the Champonship next season 

[pmcla26]

Depressing when you see Tyler Dibling breaking through for Saints the way he has. 

[Viva]

6 minutes ago, TheGoldenGod said:

Genuinely believe it should be a decent championship move, or give him minutes in the 1st team more regularly. He's better than league one for me already (possibly biased).

He's not going to get many minutes in the first team, unless we have an injury crisis. A loan would be his best option, but if a Championship club doesn't come in for him that is likely to offer him a lot of playing time, then it would be better to drop down a division to League One. 

[Gamble92]

Think you're all massively overrating the England u20s too by the way. 

 

I could go into much more detail but Cadamarteri with 0 goals for Lincoln on loan plays for them. 

 

It doesn't quite mean walk into a Championship loan.

Edited 24 September 2024 by Gamble92

[Ric Flair]

46 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

I do usually agree with a lot you say on the podcast and you speak a lot better than a lot on here that's for sure. But I do think the Cooper take is way too much too early and you've gone down a bit of a rabbit hole with the Alves stuff.

 

We put out a strong side for Tranmere. All over the pitch. I'm not of the opinion that these games are throwaways and clearly Cooper isn't either. You basically give Tranmere a free hit if you play 11 u23s. 

 

If Cooper has kept us up and is still doing the same in the cup next year then I'm fully on board with what you're saying. I just don't think he has the luxury of playing them and risking losing. It amplifies the chance of losing his job. 

The thing is, what I've said about Alves is not unreasonable compared to my stance on Cooper right from the off.

 

He should have been given a proper chance in pre-season, like Enzo did with McAteer last summer where in both instances we had little senior players in that position. That would have provided two things 1) a chance for Alves to prove his worth and 2) got the club the interest they thought they'd get from Championship teams should they loan him out.

 

I don't expect Alves to be in the 1st team squad in the PL currently with Bounanotte and El Khannouss, but I think it was frustrating he wasn't in their in the first couple of squads when we didn't have El Khannouss in yet.

 

I do think he should be involved tonight, a start would be great but at the very least off the bench. 

 

The mandate should be that the club develops academy players as a priority depsute the pressures the manager is under to succeed / survive. It's a non negotiable if we want to be sustainable.

[TheGoldenGod]

43 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

I think the second half of the season would prove that. He's only ever played at U21 level so far apart from the odd cameo. 

 

If he was that good he would be playing, hes not 17 he's 19 now. Look where Bellingham was at 19, or Rooney, Stevie G etc.

 

If he rips up League 1, then he will be nicely ready for us in the Champonship next season 

Possibly unfair for you to compare Alves to those 3 even if he becomes a superstar. What I would say is, KDH was clearly great for us and got a £40m move after being a late starter (granted had a loan move to league 1 before a championship loan.) Not that many youngsters start for any PL team but he HAS been integrated with the 1st team in training and match days for a couple years now on and off which is more than can be said for KDH at the time. Many thought he had no future when he hit 23 and was barely seen for us. 

 

You'll never know if you don't give him a chance but the talk around the club about him has always been glowing 

Edited 24 September 2024 by TheGoldenGod

[CosbehFox]

38 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

Think you're all massively overrating the England u20s too by the way. 

 

I could go into much more detail but Cadamarteri with 0 goals for Lincoln on loan plays for them. 

 

It doesn't quite mean walk into a Championship loan.

Cadamarteri wasn’t in the latest squad. By the same benchmark, in March Adam Wharton was in it. 
 

September’s squad contained players such as Jobe Bellingham, Ollie Arblaster, Ryan Andrews who are all very, very comfortable at Championship level.
 

Theres a good few others in the September squad who’ve just broken through to Championship teams (Romain Esse for example and 7 of the 10 on loan are at Championship or above standard (keeper at Walsall & the other two I’d say are higher League 1 too). 

[Tommy G]

26 minutes ago, TheGoldenGod said:

Possibly unfair for you to compare Alves to those 3 even if he becomes a superstar. What I would say is, KDH was clearly great for us and got a £40m move after being a late starter (granted had a loan move to league 1 before a championship loan.) Not that many youngsters start for any PL team but he HAS been integrated with the 1st team in training and match days for a couple years now on and off which is more than can be said for KDH at the time. Many thought he had no future when he hit 23 and was barely seen for us. 

 

You'll never know if you don't give him a chance but the talk around the club about him has always been glowing 

Im just comparing talent with talented players that went onto be superstars. 

 

I think most people can agree a loan move is better than training and sitting on the bench, if there isnt enough interest an Championship level then league 1 from Jan - May wouldn't be unsuitable, he should be getting 10 goal involvements in that period if he plays every game. Its a win win

[Gamble92]

4 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

Cadamarteri wasn’t in the latest squad. By the same benchmark, in March Adam Wharton was in it. 
 

September’s squad contained players such as Jobe Bellingham, Ollie Arblaster, Ryan Andrews who are all very, very comfortable at Championship level.
 

Theres a good few others in the September squad who’ve just broken through to Championship teams (Romain Esse for example and 7 of the 10 on loan are at Championship or above standard (keeper at Walsall & the other two I’d say are higher League 1 too). 

You're right there's about 4 or 5 playing regularly in the Championship which makes up the 25 man squad which is exactly why none are playing for the u21s which is effectively where you play if you're lower Prem to high championship quality at best throughout your career. 

 

Add in the fact he's just come back from an ACL and it's absolutely no surprise to me that no one of the clubs required standard came in for him. 

 

I just think you all need a bit of perspective. 

[moore_94]

3 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

You're right there's about 4 or 5 playing regularly in the Championship which makes up the 25 man squad which is exactly why none are playing for the u21s which is effectively where you play if you're lower Prem to high championship quality at best throughout your career. 

 

Add in the fact he's just come back from an ACL and it's absolutely no surprise to me that no one of the clubs required standard came in for him. 

 

I just think you all need a bit of perspective. 

Braybrooke who was out for a similar period to Alves with the exact same injury has got a loan in the Scottish Prem, whilst also being an England U20

 

[Gamble92]

Just now, moore_94 said:

Braybrooke who was out for a similar period to Alves with the exact same injury has got a loan in the Scottish Prem, whilst also being an England U20

 

The Scottish Prem? 

 

You're proving my point really aren't you?

[moore_94]

Just now, Gamble92 said:

The Scottish Prem? 

 

You're proving my point really aren't you?

Not really.

[JonesLCFC]

48 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

The thing is, what I've said about Alves is not unreasonable compared to my stance on Cooper right from the off.

 

He should have been given a proper chance in pre-season, like Enzo did with McAteer last summer where in both instances we had little senior players in that position. That would have provided two things 1) a chance for Alves to prove his worth and 2) got the club the interest they thought they'd get from Championship teams should they loan him out.

 

I don't expect Alves to be in the 1st team squad in the PL currently with Bounanotte and El Khannouss, but I think it was frustrating he wasn't in their in the first couple of squads when we didn't have El Khannouss in yet.

 

I do think he should be involved tonight, a start would be great but at the very least off the bench. 

 

The mandate should be that the club develops academy players as a priority depsute the pressures the manager is under to succeed / survive. It's a non negotiable if we want to be sustainable.

Yeah, it should be, but unfortunately, until something is done about clubs poaching youngsters before they sign their first pro contract, it reduces the incentive to produce top talent. The compensation scheme is a joke. We’ve been robbed of top talent in Trey Nyoni to Liverpool, and I can see the same thing happening with Jeremy Monga to another club. 

 

How clubs are expected to be sustainable when this type of thing goes on is beyond me.

[Gamble92]

9 minutes ago, moore_94 said:

Not really.

They wouldn't even win League One

[CosbehFox]

13 minutes ago, Gamble92 said:

You're right there's about 4 or 5 playing regularly in the Championship which makes up the 25 man squad which is exactly why none are playing for the u21s which is effectively where you play if you're lower Prem to high championship quality at best throughout your career. 

 

Add in the fact he's just come back from an ACL and it's absolutely no surprise to me that no one of the clubs required standard came in for him. 

 

I just think you all need a bit of perspective. 

the underlining point was that Alves needs playing time at Championship or above and he’s not a run of the mill youngster looking for game time. His inclusion to the Under 20s and comparison of international peers backs this. 
 

[Gamble92]

Just now, CosbehFox said:

the underlining point was that Alves needs playing time at Championship or above and he’s not a run of the mill youngster looking for game time. His inclusion to the Under 20s and comparison of international peers backs this. 
 

I agree. I'm just not surprised we are in a situation where we can't give him playing time and no one from the Championship has come in for him. It does happen. Let's hope it works out.