Oliver Skipp - confirmed official

[Scotch]

I could be wrong but I was under the impression Skipp was more like Wilf than Winks? Surely he would rotate with Ndidi and Winks would rotate with Soumare or Braybrooke? 

[coolhandfox]

3 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

I don't think that's the only way to develop players at all. If they aren't going to play here this season then I want them to get a loan move but I question why we shouldn't use them.

Because they aren't ready, Alves and Braybrooke have 30 senior minutes between them. The would have got time under Enzo like Nelson if they were.

 

3 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

I'm not interested in us spending £10-20m on players to use in their place. If we got 1-2 in on loan ourselves and sent them on loan so that in 12 months they come back PL or if we go down then top end Championship ready then so be it but we shouldn't kill ourselves financially trying to stay up either.

Going down will kill us more than staying up, we need to invest sensibly and develop the squad we have, spend sensible on transfer fees and wages and we will be fine.

 

3 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

We already have a good amount of experience in the squad. I'd rather focus funds on key 1st team starters and then use Alves and Braybrooke as rotation for Mavididi and Winks.

We would go down if they are the back up, they aren't ready. 

 

3 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

I want a long term plan that our academy is at the core of. We need it to survive financially anyway IMO.

The long term plan should be developing our own and bring in players to develop.

 

How much are Mavididi and Mads worth? Buy the right players and we can develop them and sell on.

 

 

Edited 21 July 2024 by coolhandfox

[Ric Flair]

15 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Because they aren't ready, Alves and Braybrooke have 30 senior minutes between them. The would have got time under Enzo like Nelson if they were.

 

Going down will kill us more than staying up, we need to invest sensibly and develop the squad we have, spend sensible on transfer fees and wages and we will be fine.

 

We would go down if they are the back up, they aren't ready. 

 

The long term plan should be developing our own and bring in players to develop.

 

How much are Mavididi and Mads worth? Buy the right players and we can develop them and sell on.

 

 

You don't know if they're ready or not (neither do I), the truth is injuries cost them 18 months. They'd both have played last season under Enzo, Alves especially.

 

They're far too good for U21 football that is quite clear, whether they're able to be a squad option in the PL without a loan remains to be seen but it wouldn't be unusual. 

 

If we go and sign Skipp and Saelemaekers then we'd be £20-30m in for 2 players that wouldn't really improve our starting XI and if Alves and Braybrooke were to get a chance in future then it would likely be because the above flopped. I'd rather give them a chance first. We saw what's happened with Soumare who got dropped for KDH and he'll be another who we carry until his contract expires.

[South Shire Fox]

4 hours ago, Scotch said:

I could be wrong but I was under the impression Skipp was more like Wilf than Winks? Surely he would rotate with Ndidi and Winks would rotate with Soumare or Braybrooke? 

Hes nothing like Wilf. Skipp is technically good but not athletic. Ndidi has two left feet but can get about

[ACF]

7 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

You don't know if they're ready or not (neither do I), the truth is injuries cost them 18 months. They'd both have played last season under Enzo, Alves especially.

 

They're far too good for U21 football that is quite clear, whether they're able to be a squad option in the PL without a loan remains to be seen but it wouldn't be unusual. 

 

If we go and sign Skipp and Saelemaekers then we'd be £20-30m in for 2 players that wouldn't really improve our starting XI and if Alves and Braybrooke were to get a chance in future then it would likely be because the above flopped. I'd rather give them a chance first. We saw what's happened with Soumare who got dropped for KDH and he'll be another who we carry until his contract expires.

You’re right we wouldn’t be improving the starting 11 and agreed that’s the type of signing we should be avoiding, BUT you also cannot guarantee that Alves/Braybrooke are good enough backup for a Prem relegation battle. If we get a couple go down with injury, we need to be able to rely on a solid back up.
 

You’re right they could’ve played under Enzo’s system, but this is also the Enzo that didn’t rotate despite having good options available to him.
 

This season is too important to second guess. Can we say Nelson, Alves, Braybrooke are going to consistently positively contribute when they get their chance? Of course not! Can we do that with other signings, also no! But it’s less of a risk.

Lets not ruin young players by throwing them in to the deep end too early.

[NewquayFox]

Skip would be a good option if we can get him for under £10 million, Braybrooke & Alves both suffered serious injuries as stated above so they are a season or more behind in their progression unfortunately, I’m sure Cooper will be delving into our ‘very good’ youth section for a few gems this season…

[TommyK]

I think the FFP rules will push us into using youth a lot more, with the idea of selling. 

 

This year has to have a balance through. Staying up is the priority, not player development. 

[davieG]

23 minutes ago, TommyK said:

This year has to have a balance through. Staying up is the priority, not player development. 

I've been seeing this argument used for as long as I can remember but in various guises.

 

Qualifying for Europe is the priority, not player development.

Winning a Cup is the priority, not player development.

 

I used to hear it in my work when in charge of apprentices, we can't use them they have no experience. Aye but they have other attributes like positivity, energy, unsullied views of the business, willingness to learn, learnt skills, natural ability and ambition.

 

There always seems to be a reason for not blooding young people.

[TommyK]

1 minute ago, davieG said:

I've been seeing this argument used for as long as I can remember but in various guises.

 

Qualifying for Europe is the priority, not player development.

Winning a Cup is the priority, not player development.

 

I used to hear it in my work when in charge of apprentices, we can't use them they have no experience. Aye but they have other attributes like positivity, energy, unsullied views of the business, willingness to learn, learnt skills, natural ability and ambition.

 

There always seems to be a reason for not blooding young people.

I didn't say we wouldn't do it. I said it wouldn't be the priority. If they are good enough then great. 

[davieG]

Just now, TommyK said:

I didn't say we wouldn't do it. I said it wouldn't be the priority. If they are good enough then great. 

It wasn't meant to be solely aim at you it just seems to have become a theme on FT.

 

Sure but you're still justifying why we shouldn't use them without knowing if they're good enough. We should be giving them plenty of opportunities in the pre-season and the early games as a priority before the window shuts. I'm sure we could still get a 'Skipp' level player later on if they don't show they are ready.

[Stadt]

If we had a 19 year old Maradona on our books, half of FT would say he needed 12 months at Walsall before giving him a chance 

Edited 22 July 2024 by Stadt

[Arriba Los Zorros]

Would be pretty keen on this signing tbh 

[Arriba Los Zorros]

On 22/07/2024 at 08:47, Stadt said:

If we had a 19 year old Maradona on our books, half of FT would say he needed 12 months at Walsall before giving him a chance 

No right foot and doesn't track back

[An Away Move]

On 21/07/2024 at 17:37, Ric Flair said:

I don't think that's the only way to develop players at all. If they aren't going to play here this season then I want them to get a loan move but I question why we shouldn't use them.

 

I'm not interested in us spending £10-20m on players to use in their place. If we got 1-2 in on loan ourselves and sent them on loan so that in 12 months they come back PL or if we go down then top end Championship ready then so be it but we shouldn't kill ourselves financially trying to stay up either.

 

We already have a good amount of experience in the squad. I'd rather focus funds on key 1st team starters and then use Alves and Braybrooke as rotation for Mavididi and Winks.

 

I want a long term plan that our academy is at the core of. We need it to survive financially anyway IMO.

This. There's nothing that Mavididi/Fatawu can do that Alves can't in terms of skill. The latter is probably more consistent with the final ball/shot than Fatawu too. I'll be so disappointed if he's sent out on loan. Same with Braybrooke. More chance of re-injury if sent out into the lower leagues too. They'll be better off and better looked after being integrated into the first team IMO. The financial case for bringing them through now is also compelling.

Edited 23 July 2024 by An Away Move

[Old Fox]

1 hour ago, An Away Move said:

This. There's nothing that Mavididi/Fatawu can do that Alves can't in terms of skill. The latter is probably more consistent with the final ball/shot than Fatawu too. I'll be so disappointed if he's sent out on loan. Same with Braybrooke. More chance of re-injury if sent out into the lower leagues too. They'll be better off and better looked after being integrated into the first team IMO. The financial case for bringing them through now is also compelling.

It’s an interesting dilemma but I personally think the best thing for both Alves and Braybrooke is to go out on loan and get minutes in proper first team football - there development will be quicker and they will learn so much more than being around our 23’s and bench.

 

They are not ready for the prem and we can’t experiment as relegation is too expensive - Kane, Beckham, KDH etc all went on loan early in their careers to get experience and whilst Pep integrated Foden he did not have the serious injuries our two have had.

 

Sending them to clubs that play football and either top end of league 1 or championship will benefit them more than being around the first team - maybe we have recall clauses and if they are ready involve them back end of the season ready for the next but only if we are safe !!

[ClaphamFox]

5 minutes ago, Old Fox said:

It’s an interesting dilemma but I personally think the best thing for both Alves and Braybrooke is to go out on loan and get minutes in proper first team football - there development will be quicker and they will learn so much more than being around our 23’s and bench.

 

They are not ready for the prem and we can’t experiment as relegation is too expensive - Kane, Beckham, KDH etc all went on loan early in their careers to get experience and whilst Pep integrated Foden he did not have the serious injuries our two have had.

 

Sending them to clubs that play football and either top end of league 1 or championship will benefit them more than being around the first team - maybe we have recall clauses and if they are ready involve them back end of the season ready for the next but only if we are safe !!

If we had greater squad depth or lots of scope within PSR to spend big this window, I might agree with you. But as we have neither, I think we'll need Alves and Braybrooke as options this season. If we want to beat the points deduction and stay up, we'll need to spend the limited budget we have on improving the first team. In practice, this means we'll need our highest quality youngsters around to step in if required.

 

And as for your statement that neither Alves or Braybrooke are ready for the Prem, how do you know when they haven't been given a chance yet?

Edited 23 July 2024 by ClaphamFox

[Bettsj2]

I think we're all desperate to see Alves and Braybrooke become superstars.  The issue is if they aren't that pretty quickly, it makes it hard to continue to pick them.

 

KDH didn't get into the first team until he'd been on loan twice getting regular football at Blackpool and then Luton which aided the transition.  Throwing Alves or Braybrooke in when really all they've had is U21's could bury both players.  That standard of football isn't competitive enough to think they could handle the Prem and then of course there's the injuries they've both sustained.

 

We have to loan them out until January at least.

[ClaphamFox]

10 minutes ago, Bettsj2 said:

I think we're all desperate to see Alves and Braybrooke become superstars.  The issue is if they aren't that pretty quickly, it makes it hard to continue to pick them.

 

KDH didn't get into the first team until he'd been on loan twice getting regular football at Blackpool and then Luton which aided the transition.  Throwing Alves or Braybrooke in when really all they've had is U21's could bury both players.  That standard of football isn't competitive enough to think they could handle the Prem and then of course there's the injuries they've both sustained.

 

We have to loan them out until January at least.

You sound as if you think that no young player has ever been thrown in at the deep end, whereas in reality it happens all the time. Every season, some young players transition straight from their club's academy to the first team. It doesn't always work out, but plenty of times it does. Why are people insisting there would be something unusual in a couple of 19/20-year-olds being promoted to the first team squad in the PL? It's a well-trodden path.

Edited 23 July 2024 by ClaphamFox

[TheGoldenGod]

 

14 minutes ago, Bettsj2 said:

KDH didn't get into the first team until he'd been on loan twice getting regular football at Blackpool and then Luton which aided the transition.  Throwing Alves or Braybrooke in when really all they've had is U21's could bury both players. 

Many players have done exactly what you're worried about "u21s to first team". That's a normal evolution. Also using KDH as the example that worked is interesting as before he did well for Luton, I imagine many had written him off as having a future with us considering how late he was in his development. He certainly took longer than most to break into a 1st team. 

Everyone's buzzing to see how Braybrooke and Alves do, not opposed to a loan but Alves especially has been integrated into the 1st team squad for a couple years now. He's hungry, got bags of talent and physically seems to have bulked up too. I say get him in!

Edited 23 July 2024 by TheGoldenGod

[Old Fox]

43 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

If we had greater squad depth or lots of scope within PSR to spend big this window, I might agree with you. But as we have neither, I think we'll need Alves and Braybrooke as options this season. If we want to beat the points deduction and stay up, we'll need to spend the limited budget we have on improving the first team. In practice, this means we'll need our highest quality youngsters around to step in if required.

 

And as for your statement that neither Alves or Braybrooke are ready for the Prem, how do you know when they haven't been given a chance yet?

I don’t and neither do we know if they are but I trust the process of the gaffer to get their development right and my instinct after two serious injuries that will have stalled their development at a crucial transition is that first team regular football will be better than first team squad exposure - we will see just a difference in opinion!

[Bettsj2]

1 hour ago, ClaphamFox said:

You sound as if you think that no young player has ever been thrown in at the deep end, whereas in reality it happens all the time. Every season, some young players transition straight from their club's academy to the first team. It doesn't always work out, but plenty of times it does. Why are people insisting there would be something unusual in a couple of 19/20-year-olds being promoted to the first team squad in the PL? It's a well-trodden path.

Absolutely they do but there isn't a set formula here where throwing them in will definitely pay off, or not.

 

In our case, Alves and Braybrooke are really the only two that are spoken about as breaking through.  In this circumstance, is it the right thing to do to throw them into such a meat grinder of a situation?  Maybe yes, maybe no.  Obviously we'll find out in time.  Personally, i'd prefer to see them go on loan first.  

[An Away Move]

Giggs was tearing seasoned defenders a new arsehole at 17 years old. Yamal in the Spanish national side at 16. Bellingham for England at a young age. Yet we can’t even take a risk on Alves or Braybrooke as rotation players in our first team? This view is SO negative it’s laughable. Hopefully Cooper has the nous to give them a chance. 

[An Away Move]

In terms of re-injury in games both Alves and Braybroooke will be far more protected by the refs in the Premier League too compared to lower leagues. Better pitches too. 

[JimJams]

4 hours ago, An Away Move said:

This. There's nothing that Mavididi/Fatawu can do that Alves can't in terms of skill. The latter is probably more consistent with the final ball/shot than Fatawu too. I'll be so disappointed if he's sent out on loan. Same with Braybrooke. More chance of re-injury if sent out into the lower leagues too. They'll be better off and better looked after being integrated into the first team IMO. The financial case for bringing them through now is also compelling.

If this is true, and I have my doubts, then surely there's no discussion to be had regarding loans as you're implying he's as good as one of our best starters.  What doesn't he have that would keep him out? It's not as though Fats is a physical specimen or powerhouse.

[urban.spaceman]