Electric Car?

[Clogger_]

7 hours ago, tom27111 said:

I'd highly recommend not buying a brand new one.

 

The depreciation is absolutely ridiculous. To the extent that I've had customers who are in 14k negative equity after 2 and a half years.

 

If you're looking brand new, lease one, don't do anything where you're liable for ownership, but be aware you're tied in to it for the whole term.

 

Look at stuff up to 2 years old if you're financing on a PCP/HP or buying cash. Then the majority of the depreciation has hit. There's really good value to be had on used EV's.

 

 

Isn't this the same as any car, and dependant to a significant extent on make/model? Not sure what you sell, and how they perform against the market? (But agree in principle there's value in going second hand - same as with any car!)

 

(I'll stop typing about EVs now, but one last thing to add. From experience I'd not choose a just-launched model. There's a lot of new technology involved. Who wants to be a beta tester when you're spending that much money?! It takes a while for the manufacturers to fix the gremlins.)

Edited 16 January by Clogger_

[MPH]

24 minutes ago, Clogger_ said:

I think the OP would appreciate serious advice, not pie-in-the-sky stuff! I reckon you know better MPH - this is plain daft!

 

To be fair, there are clearly significant reasons to think carefully about making the switch to EVs. Environmental considerations are one: "dumping" older cars, environmental costs of manufacturing a new car etc. High initial cost is another. Key issue is whether home charging is viable - it's obviously going to work best if you've got a drive. But holding our for the next unicorn technology is either blindly following some petrol company-funded guff (e.g. Mail, Telegraph opinion pieces) or naive.

 

to be fair, you’re opening sentence sounds similar to how most people were sounding about mass produced electric cars 20 or so years ago. Technology is evolving all the time. We shouldn’t be  judging what could be available in 10 years by what technology is available today.
 

the NamX, an SUV, is reportedly due to hit the market  at the end of 2026, according to their website. You could probably add  at least a couple of years to that though, I’d imagine.. and even then it might be a more localized roll out to start with. But as with electric cars, you have to start somewhere and the market could grow.

Edited 16 January by MPH

[tom27111]

In a bit more depth to @ozleicester aside from some potentially bad financial implications...

 

I would 100% buy one myself, I'm seriously considering it at the minute Ince the right thing comes along.

 

My company car at the dealership is a petrol and I'm being taxed through the roof on it. Even more so because my company only decided to tell HMRC I had a company car in September, rather than at the start of the tax year.

 

An EV would be perfect for me, I'd have a company car contribution of £250 a month if I buy one from my company. 

 

I drive 40 miles a day and could charge at work.

 

So with zero cost for fuel/charging, £250 contribution and company car tax saving, I could enter a finance agreement for about £380 a month and be saving money. Even though I'd have to pay my own insurance. 

 

I think they're great to drive, so smooth and quiet. Instant power.

 

There's nothing that isn't to like.

 

The only thing stopping me right now is the fact I can only get substantial staff discount on a new car, not a used one. 

 

You can't buy a brand new one. It's financial suicide.

[tom27111]

6 minutes ago, Clogger_ said:

Isn't this the same as any car, and dependant to a significant extent on make/model? Not sure what you sell, and how they perform against the market? (But agree in principle there's value in going second hand - same as with any car!)

 

(I'll stop typing about EVs now, but one last thing to add. From experience I'd not choose a just-launched model. There's a lot of new technology involved. Who wants to be a beta tester when you're spending that much money?! It takes a while for the manufacturers to fix the gremlins.)

 

Short answer, no.

 

If you buy a new ICE/Hybrid on PCP, you've still got a good chance of having equity towards the end of your finance term.

 

If you buy a new EV, it's probably the worst financial decision you could make.

 

I've not seen anyone in a non-EV with an unsustainable amount of negative equity.

 

I sell Nissans. To give you an example, we're a main dealer, selling 3 year old Leafs for around 12k. They retailed at 32k brand new.

 

That's an outrageous difference. 

 

Buying one second hand is incredible value for money right now. But the person who bought it new has lost so much money. 

[Clogger_]

1 minute ago, tom27111 said:

 

Short answer, no.

 

If you buy a new ICE/Hybrid on PCP, you've still got a good chance of having equity towards the end of your finance term.

 

If you buy a new EV, it's probably the worst financial decision you could make.

 

I've not seen anyone in a non-EV with an unsustainable amount of negative equity.

 

I sell Nissans. To give you an example, we're a main dealer, selling 3 year old Leafs for around 12k. They retailed at 32k brand new.

 

That's an outrageous difference. 

 

Buying one second hand is incredible value for money right now. But the person who bought it new has lost so much money. 

Thanks Tom! Food for thought indeed. Not sure anyone was paying list price for a Leaf three years ago - they were already miles behind the curve! But I do appreciate your basic point: technology moves on, and it impacts the value of your (older) car.

 

I really worry about these private PCP agreements in general - a wider issue.

 

So I guess you wouldn't want to sell me a new Nissan EV put of principle then! Cash buyer, and in the market... :-)

[tom27111]

Just now, Clogger_ said:

Thanks Tom! Food for thought indeed. Not sure anyone was paying list price for a Leaf three years ago - they were already miles behind the curve! But I do appreciate your basic point: technology moves on, and it impacts the value of your (older) car.

 

I really worry about these private PCP agreements in general - a wider issue.

 

So I guess you wouldn't want to sell me a new Nissan EV put of principle then! Cash buyer, and in the market... :-)

 

I'd sell you a pre-reg that has 14k off the list price!

 

Or one that's up to 2 years old where the depreciation has already hit.

 

It isn't just a Nissan problem, it's an EV problem.

 

Literally yesterday a customer came in, looking to px her 2 year old Leaf to go to an Ariya.

 

Her settlement figure was 19k. Her Leaf is worth 10k at trade value.

 

She needs to give me 9k before I can even think about looking at her getting a new car.

 

If it was an ICE Juke or Qashqai, I could have worked out a deal.

 

EV, not a chance.

 

The car market can fluctuate wildly, but the only thing guaranteed at the minute is the huge depreciation of EV's.

 

Various factors are contributing to it, but it means you can't go wrong buying a used one.

[tom27111]

Just to hammer home what I'm saying, this is a car that'd cost you around 50k brand new. 

 

It's just over 6 months old and being sold by a main dealer, with warranty and all the substantial prep costs that a main dealer spends on prep to make sure everything is tip top.

 

Plus, bear in mind, we're making profit on it.

 

 

[FoyleFox]

5 hours ago, Lako42 said:

Best motoring decision I ever made getting an ev. 

 

Will never go back if I can help it. 

Yes, me too. Love it. 

 

[Jon the Hat]

7 hours ago, ozleicester said:

Thanks, definitley not buying new (ever).

BYD have just announced their 2025 range which is going to be cheaper than their 24's lol.

Im assuming that will cause a big drop in the used market when they get here. Ill be paying cash...hoping itll give me some added power

Attractive as that might be, novated leases are currently available from pre-tax earnings without fringe benefit tax, so you can save a bit on leases, eg Tesla model 3 for about $850 a month net if you are higher rate taxpayer.

[MPH]

4 hours ago, Robo61 said:

You'll be waiting a very ling time. Hydrogen cars have been around a very long time and very little real progress has been made. Challenges include: cost of production: very low efficiency: storeage and transportation: infrastructure costs & viability. Hydrogen will likely have a future for long haul transport such as shippong and flight, where low weight is crucial, but very has a low probability for private vehicles.

 

NamX plan on releasing their hydrogen  car for purchase at the end of 2026. Just like Tesla did, they are currently taking pre-orders..

[WigstonWanderer]

4 hours ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

Isn't the promotion of hydrogen cars just another delaying tactic on the part of the fossil fuel industry to delay the transition to electric vehicles? Hydrogen may be an abundant element but it's not cheap to generate, store or transport. 

 

Great for extra dangerous ballooning though

 

Edit: apologies for tediously repeating pretty much the points made in literally the post above

Also it needs to be generated and to do so without CO2 means using solar or nuclear or produce the energy to generate it by electrolysis. More efficient to just use the electricity directly I’d have thought. I believe distribution of hydrogen is problematic as well as it is more likely to leak from pipe work

[Sly]

11 hours ago, ozleicester said:

Hi folks, I know that you are a pretty long way ahead of Oz when it comes to electric cars.

Im looking at getting my first (Leaning toward and Atto 3) and just wondering if anyone has any tips, experiences and ideas about tEV's... issues, answers, things to watch for?

Cheers

Talking from UK experience.

 

My current wall box cost me £950 with a 5 meter cable that is attached to the side of the house / on the driveway. I park next to it, so it doesn’t need to be any longer. I think up to 15 meters was an extra £100. The wall box at my previous house was £500.

 

I also received a 3 point plug charger when I got my current car. I’ve only ever attempted to charge it once at Highcross in Leicester and it put on about 4% in 3 hours  Totally pointless. 

 

The range of the battery drops significantly in the cold.
 

The winding the cable back in / out is a pain in the arse to be honest. I like to unwind it all so it doesn’t get warm attached to the side of the house. When they’re wet, don’t wear anything white, it won’t stay that colour. 
 

I’d never buy one as others have said as they depreciate massively, lease is the way forward. Also the battery health will reduce over time. So not really ideal if sustainability matters to you. What on earth are we going to do with all there batteries? What’s the cost of replacing that battery if you buy? 
 

The infrastructure over here is good for charging stations now. You can get various operators where you just use an app and it’s basically plug and play for charging. Just looking at the Electroverse app, Europe is littered with charge points. Australia looks fairly sparse. I’ve attached a screenshot to shot the difference. 
 

I have my charge box registered so people can use it during times when I’m at work to charge their cars and I potentially make a bit of money off it. It’s never been used though 😂 

 

I rarely charge anywhere other than home. BMW did offer me a club thing whereby I pay “x” per month and get discounted charging. I’ve never taken them up on that.

 

As an off note, whilst on the subject of EVs, I spoke to a company last year that was looking at wireless charging whilst driving! They saw that as a more practical step rather than having cables everywhere. 

[Jattdogg]

Horse and carriage for me.  Lol

 

Canada needs to do better with charging infrastructure not just in remote areas (ie anywhere like 50km away from a major city .....which is like 99% of Canada lol) but also in major metro areas as well. Getting there very slowly.

 

The extreme cold here doesn't help with battery degradation. We have -15 (feels like -25) in the forecast next week around the greater Toronto area. 

 

Hybrid is the way forward for canucks IMO. Not rich enough to handle the depreciation cliff that EV's suffer from.

[Robo61]

8 hours ago, MPH said:

 

NamX plan on releasing their hydrogen  car for purchase at the end of 2026. Just like Tesla did, they are currently taking pre-orders..

I'll be surprised if this ever gets  past the concept stage,  they are not planning any infrastructure as Tesla did,  so buyers will be reliant on the 16 Hydrogen stations we currently have (down 5 since 2023) or using a subscription service for their hydrogen capsules.  

 

Hyundai already have a hydrogen fuel cell car,  but retails at twice the price of its electric equivalent and if you can find a hydrogen fuel station you will be paying more for it than petrol. 

 

To produce hydrogen we need to use three times the amount of electricity as we need to put straight into an electric car,  why would anyone want to do this when in this country electricity is available everywhere to put straight into our cars. 

 

I accept that electric isn't currently for everyone particularly if you don't have off road parking and /or drive veery high mileage on a daily basis,  but from my own experience if those don't apply to you they are already better than petrol/diesel vehicles with may more development potential than hydrogen. 

[Robo61]

7 hours ago, Sly said:

Talking from UK experience.

 

My current wall box cost me £950 with a 5 meter cable that is attached to the side of the house / on the driveway. I park next to it, so it doesn’t need to be any longer. I think up to 15 meters was an extra £100. The wall box at my previous house was £500.

 

I also received a 3 point plug charger when I got my current car. I’ve only ever attempted to charge it once at Highcross in Leicester and it put on about 4% in 3 hours  Totally pointless. 

 

The range of the battery drops significantly in the cold.
 

The winding the cable back in / out is a pain in the arse to be honest. I like to unwind it all so it doesn’t get warm attached to the side of the house. When they’re wet, don’t wear anything white, it won’t stay that colour. 
 

I’d never buy one as others have said as they depreciate massively, lease is the way forward. Also the battery health will reduce over time. So not really ideal if sustainability matters to you. What on earth are we going to do with all there batteries? What’s the cost of replacing that battery if you buy? 
 

The infrastructure over here is good for charging stations now. You can get various operators where you just use an app and it’s basically plug and play for charging. Just looking at the Electroverse app, Europe is littered with charge points. Australia looks fairly sparse. I’ve attached a screenshot to shot the difference. 
 

I have my charge box registered so people can use it during times when I’m at work to charge their cars and I potentially make a bit of money off it. It’s never been used though 😂 

 

I rarely charge anywhere other than home. BMW did offer me a club thing whereby I pay “x” per month and get discounted charging. I’ve never taken them up on that.

 

As an off note, whilst on the subject of EVs, I spoke to a company last year that was looking at wireless charging whilst driving! They saw that as a more practical step rather than having cables everywhere. 

 

 

Really takes me less than 10 secs to wind mine up,  guess you went untethered.  

 

Battery health does reduce over time but the real world expereince is proving to be better than manufacturers predicted and in most cases most will batteries are outlasted the rest of the vehicle and you can now have individual cells replaced,  which obviously reduces the costs significantly.  

 

Moving forward vehicle batteries taken out of cars at the end of the vehicle life a are already being repurposed for electricity grid storage and at the very end of their lifes the vast majority of the parts including precious metals can be recycled.  Of course electric vehicles are not 100% sustainable but are way better than the alternatives currently available.  We cannot afford to wait for perfect to come along. 

 

 

[jgtuk]

Not sure these should even be in this thread, maybe start a new one? 
Pre-order the 2022 model now for delivery end 2026. Starting price £75,000. 
Look great on paper and in the online descriptions but not convinced they’ll ever make it to mass market. 
The EV charging infrastructure is already massively improved in the uk (compared to 2/3 years ago) and the cars I’ve driven are fantastic, so much better than ICE models. 
The looks/styling somewhat lets them down imo but I’d be all in if my wife was convinced. 
Still trying to convince her but she doesn’t like change and unfortunately has been victim to naysayers on social media talking about range anxiety, cost of repairs, battery fires etc. 

I’ve fitted a charging point whilst doing a rewire so already prepped for the future (incidentally, I bought the charger and cabling and fitted it all myself, just had the sparky test at the consumer unit as part of the rewire so cost for charger and cable was about £500)
 

[MPH]

1 hour ago, Robo61 said:

I'll be surprised if this ever gets  past the concept stage,  they are not planning any infrastructure as Tesla did,  so buyers will be reliant on the 16 Hydrogen stations we currently have (down 5 since 2023) or using a subscription service for their hydrogen capsules.  

 

Hyundai already have a hydrogen fuel cell car,  but retails at twice the price of its electric equivalent and if you can find a hydrogen fuel station you will be paying more for it than petrol. 

 

To produce hydrogen we need to use three times the amount of electricity as we need to put straight into an electric car,  why would anyone want to do this when in this country electricity is available everywhere to put straight into our cars. 

 

I accept that electric isn't currently for everyone particularly if you don't have off road parking and /or drive veery high mileage on a daily basis,  but from my own experience if those don't apply to you they are already better than petrol/diesel vehicles with may more development potential than hydrogen. 

 

to start with they are planning on mail delivery for the hydrogen cells. Considering the reach of the car, that won’t be every week. And of course eventually leading up to hydrogen fueling stations.

 

 

the NamX is currently retailing at £75000.  But you have to remember this will be their first ever model..

[jgtuk]

23 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

to start with they are planning on mail delivery for the hydrogen cells. Considering the reach of the car, that won’t be every week. And of course eventually leading up to hydrogen fueling stations.

 

 

the NamX is currently retailing at £75000.  But you have to remember this will be their first ever model..

That delivery method looks interesting although I don’t know enough about it yet. The idea of “mini pods” would make this a game changer if the other hurdles (already mentioned by others in this thread) were overcome. 
Otoh, I still have my Betamax ready to fire up 👍

[Robo61]

26 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

to start with they are planning on mail delivery for the hydrogen cells. Considering the reach of the car, that won’t be every week. And of course eventually leading up to hydrogen fueling stations.

 

 

the NamX is currently retailing at £75000.  But you have to remember this will be their first ever model..

Yes I understand the concept of the subscription service but there is as yet no indication of there cost but will certainly be way beyond the price I am paying for my electric.

 

It is not though the first hydrogen fuel cell car and non have so far gone to mass market status.

[jgtuk]

Just now, Robo61 said:

Yes I understand the concept of the subscription service but there is as yet no indication of there cost but will certainly be way beyond the price I am paying for my electric.

 

It is not though the first hydrogen fuel cell car and non have so far gone to mass market status.

*spoiler 

 

They probably won’t 

[MPH]

8 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

That delivery method looks interesting although I don’t know enough about it yet. The idea of “mini pods” would make this a game changer if the other hurdles (already mentioned by others in this thread) were overcome. 
Otoh, I still have my Betamax ready to fire up 👍

 

yes, it will have pods you can delivery and slot in kind of like a battery you do these days for some larger electrical toys.

[MPH]

7 minutes ago, Robo61 said:

Yes I understand the concept of the subscription service but there is as yet no indication of there cost but will certainly be way beyond the price I am paying for my electric.

 

It is not though the first hydrogen fuel cell car and non have so far gone to mass market status.

 So the NamX is available for pre-order for £75,000

 

 and Sorry for the confusion..
 

this is planned as being the first mass produced hydrogen car. For the public market. That anyone can buy.

 

 

Just to reiterate what I’ve said in previous posts, this  is a new market and there has to be a starting point, we shouldn’t consider this the end point. The finished article. Just like with electric cars, they’ll come on to the market and the market will grow and changes will be made and technology will improve. But there has to be a starting point.

Edited 17 January by MPH

[Bellend Sebastian]

I wouldn't fill my Zeppelin fleet (with which I intend to take over the world - screw you, Musk) with anything else

[Robo61]

38 minutes ago, MPH said:

 So the NamX is available for pre-order for £75,000

 

 and Sorry for the confusion..
 

this is planned as being the first mass produced hydrogen car. For the public market. That anyone can buy.

 

 

Just to reiterate what I’ve said in previous posts, this  is a new market and there has to be a starting point, we shouldn’t consider this the end point. The finished article. Just like with electric cars, they’ll come on to the market and the market will grow and changes will be made and technology will improve. But there has to be a starting point.

The Hyundai Nexio was planned for the mass market and retails at less than the Namx.  You are atating the future as fact without addressing any the  challenges I have raised. Do you work in the petrol chemical industry?

[jgtuk]

1 hour ago, MPH said:

 So the NamX is available for pre-order for £75,000

 

 and Sorry for the confusion..
 

this is planned as being the first mass produced hydrogen car. For the public market. That anyone can buy.

 

 

Just to reiterate what I’ve said in previous posts, this  is a new market and there has to be a starting point, we shouldn’t consider this the end point. The finished article. Just like with electric cars, they’ll come on to the market and the market will grow and changes will be made and technology will improve. But there has to be a starting point.

Appreciate your input (and confidence) but I might be tempted in about 10 years if the market somehow goes that way. 
There was almost a readily available market for EV’s as there was already a partial structure in place (ie. electricity supply) but it’s still taken a while to convince Joe Public that EV’s will work for most people. The fossil fuel industry has done a brilliant job of scaremongering but hopefully the industry will grow and the vehicles will drop in price (they already have) and become more affordable for the masses. 
I think I read recently that EV’s are the highest selling vehicles in growth terms and diesel the lowest. 
I’m doing a lot of cheerleading here and I don’t even own one yet 😂