Israel

[Dr The Singh]

and all dictators evetually fall like bad democracies........ religious dogma lives on enslaving minds

Yes, but those years as a dictator will be the best ever, wealth, power, sex, drugs, rock n bhangra!!! Anyhow I will seek refuge or assylum in a neighboring country or sit in jail with tinternet, skysports and steak dinners for rest of my years duo to some doo-gooders........dictatorship.......that's the way forward........fancy becomming my deputy anyone???????

[Dr The Singh]

The sports team from my region is superior to the sports team from your region therefore I shall smite you and you kin!

Maybe, but the history of war is intrinsically linked to conflicts between supporters of differing belief systems. I never cease to find it odd that religions seem bent on finding the quickest possible [one] way to prove whether they are right or not. :pinch:

Personally, I feel that if everyone adopted a humanist perspective then wars would be a thing of the past ~ and if they don't, I'll do 'em!

Agreed!!!

Most religions don't actually prove or even try to there religion is right or not, they just conquer and enforce there beliefs!!!

[macbeth]

Yes, but those years as a dictator will be the best ever, wealth, power, sex, drugs, rock n bhangra!!! Anyhow I will seek refuge or assylum in a neighboring country or sit in jail with tinternet, skysports and steak dinners for rest of my years duo to some doo-gooders........dictatorship.......that's the way forward........fancy becomming my deputy anyone???????

Youve talked me into it ........wheres my badge what should we call ourselves S& M or has that already been used?

[Daggers]

I want to be Minister In Charge Of Making Lots Of Mistakes And Having Affairs... please can I please can I please please please?

[The People's Hero]

Super Smash TV was ace on the SNES!

I'D BUY THAT FOR A DOLLAR!

Timeless! (no, seriously, it has actually aged quite a bit, seems a bit dated now)

[macbeth]

I want to be Minister In Charge Of Making Lots Of Mistakes And Having Affairs... please can I please can I please please please?

i'm pooh bah .........lord high everything else # 3 little maids from school are we# ........you've set me off now

[Ultra]

we haven't experienced the incidious long term terror inflicted on the citizens of israel and i think it is hard to imagine how we would react to the years of instability in an area where all sides seem intransigent

But the Palestinians and Lebanese have, and it hasn't exactly enhanced their opinion of the Israelis.

Our government has contributedto the continuation of this cycle of hatred and violence by its partisan behaviour, and crippling the Un's powers to intervene.

[Thracian]

But the Palestinians and Lebanese have, and it hasn't exactly enhanced their opinion of the Israelis.

Our government has contributedto the continuation of this cycle of hatred and violence by its partisan behaviour, and crippling the Un's powers to intervene.

Always someone else to blame. And I imagine that is the root of the problem really. Don't concede any blame and we can carry on being the little man fighting the great big aggressor and attracting the sympathy of the easily influenced.

Good strategy and one of the reasons why the West should never have tackled Islamic fundamentalist expansion with violence but with dignity and through international media which concentrated on what Muslim fundamentalism represents.

But Bush and Blair knew better...and between all the many shameless parties involved one hell of a lot of people have been killed, maimed and had their lives ruined shamelessly.

In case you're unsure Ultra. We have got the message that the Muslim community of the entire Middle East don't like Israelis - in fact the impression given is that they hate them - and we know that Iran wants them wiped off the map.

But hatred is probably the most common word in the Muslim language - at least that's the impression I get reading about Muslim conflicts all over the world through Chechnya, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, the twin towers of America, the streets of London.....

I have no idea where you get your evidence that Israel would have conducted a nuclear strike against Palestine "but for a small Jewish presence" but if it were true, they a) must be feeling pretty desperate and b) Would easily have got a message to that small group and given them time to get out. Don't you think?.

And your criticism of Israel's nuclear attitude comes at a time when Iran and Pakistan are both boosting their nuclear capabilities. The world is not black and white it is full of greys and, to be honest, there isn't a nation in any decent World which should ever make, stock or develop nuclear weapons.

I am, however, quite sure that Israel's nuclear strength will be dwarved by Pakistan's, India's and Iran's if the world survives long enough for that to happen without Israel becoming so neurotic that they do something stupid or desperate or suicidal.

What I want to know is do you drive and if so, are you safe on the road seeing that you seem to look in only one direction?.

Which reminds me.

I still don't know whether a Muslim can freely reject his religion and move in another direction.

I still don't know if the children of Muslims - or one Muslim parent and another of another religion - can be brought up as anything other than Muslims.

And I still don't know if a Muslim can sell his house to a non Muslim.

I never imagined they were such difficult questions.

I ask, I suppose, because I am interested in how free to choose you actually are or to what degree you've been subjected to the dictates of others. If the latter were the case, of course, then I wouldn't know if the views you post on here are your own or those which have emanated from sources with a vested interest.

You mentioned earlier too about integration. You may indeed be "integrated" but nothing you mention necessitates a genuine integration as in having multinational friends, belonging to multinational organisations well represented by other than Muslim people or working in, say, a predominently white or multi-cultural environment, though all of those things may be true.

I only wonder because, when I listen to other people's opinions, I find it very hard to be as sure of myself as you seem to be especially about complex issues like the Israel/Palestine situation.

And, by the way, after all the above please don't make the mistake of somehow thinking I carry hatred for Muslims as you seem to think of Israelis. I don't. Nor do I carry a flag for the BNP as you so hatefully suggested. But equally, while you make so much sense on other topics, I cannot understand or accept such a one-sided viewpoint as you voice on this thread.

You asked about Muslim influence in this country in terms of laws. But Muslims do not need to have laws changed to have influence. Look at the security cameras on every street, at every station, in every busy public place and consider the efforts to make us all have identity cards. It was never like that in Britain even as recently as the 60's and 70's.

And don't say that they are not there JUST because of Muslims, I am well aware of that. But the terror threat means there's ever more security and none of the cameras are likely to come down anytime soon.

There were few mosques in the 60's and 70's either - not that it would matter if they hadn't been abused as such a focus for hatred in some places. How any religion can allow a holy house to be used to prech hatred is utterly incomprehensible to me.

Influence? I walked into a pub on the old Melton Road not many weeks ago, desperate to watch a football match. My son and I were the only white people in the whole place which was near the Cossington Street baths where I used to go swimming. The walls of the stairs were covered with hateful anti-white graffitti.

No influence? Well the fact that I went there shows how indifferent I am to different colours and creeds. But, do you think I would ever want to go there or take my son there again?.

Can you imagine turning up at the Walkers to read such graffitti about Muslims? No because some have made great efforts to welcome everyone into our society, into every walk of our life, quite unconditionally.

I don't suppose one word of this will make any sort of positive impression, or make you pause for thought for a single moment and I have to wonder if that is because of your mentality or because of the way you have been influenced to believe there is only one "right" and all other opinion has somehow been corrupted.

[Thracian]

Moseeds, I should have been clearer, what i'm saying is that Izlamisation (ie radicalisation) of your faith is spreading, there are those that are moderates and then there are those that are moderate and become more radical. Yes, I do say that there is a underlying jihad of conversion, and there always has been, it's a part of Islam, (just like christain missionaries), to teach the infedils of there ways and ensure they understand mohammed is the prophet of god....I do apologise Moseeds if I have got this wrong, I have read alot about Islam and the quran and hadiths but alot is interpretable.

I no nothing on Moghul EMpire and it's history only it's relation to Sikhism, and many were forced to convert or die a death. Moghul's were tyrants, they would enslave women for there concubines, enslave non muslims and death penalty to infedils was common. If you were a muslims however, a decent paid job and feeedom was on offer. They turned a saintly religion of Sikhism into one of saint soldiers, one which kicked there ass under exceptional circumstamces and booted them out from India, once and forever!!!!

Power and land may well be the driving force of a conquest but it's always in the name of religion, those soldiers do not see the money they see themselves as fighting for there faith!!!! The Sikhs wer no exception, they conquered all the way to Afghan, the King did for revenue, the soldiers were all saint soldeirs!!!

The devious means are those used by those cowards that preace hate and want to commit people for suicide missions and dare not themselves, perfect example is Omar Bakri. There are those not all that manipulate the weak ie Alijah Mohammed, manipulated Islam, in stating white people are pigs in relation to Islam( even though mohammed was white in complextion), and as we know converted many black people using such misconceptions. HUT\HT are evil c*nts, I know from first hand, there methods as I know are very covert, majority of there supporters are underground ie will not openly admit.

How can anyone condone Sharia Law, in part or full??? There are muslims that want to implement it, for eg, the many muslim parties in Pakistan for example. Like I say, If religion is the basis for your life, it will only isolate you and any one else from outside that religion will be seen with distrust and fear. You lose all clarity and independant thought as the 'book' does all the thinking for you!!!

Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with US foriegn policy etc, but even the Israeli's are protesting against the current campaign against there own.

Moseeds, why do you try to justify everything Muslims do wrong by referring to what the West or others do wrong?

Many of us have shouted long and hard against things that Bush, Blair, the CIA, MI5 and whoever else have done wrong but that doesn't help sort your fanatics out, does it?

Do you agree with beheadings?

Do you agree with honour killings?

Do you believe in stonings for erring women?

Do you believe charity workers should have their throats slit or whatever?

Don't say American soldiers slaughtered women and children in a house or treat prisoners disgustingly, the former will go on trial and the latter would be illegal in our society. But, they certainly don't have a monopoly on such things, never have had, but either way it wouldn't answer the questions.

If you went to University then presumably you have a good brain as, I imagine does Ultra. That being the case, don't you ever want to work out life and your opinions for yourself instead of being dictated to

via someone else's interpretation of the Holy Koran?

That touches on why I asked previously whether Islam was a religion which fostered peace or hatred because I have heard such conflicting opinions and I cannot see how both could be right.

I can with the Bible. It was compiled from stories told long ago, in different times, with different values and utterly contradicts itself in places.

Consequently I follow my own convictions, my own rules although, as stated before, they are broadly centred around the Commandments which seem to appear in other religions anyway in various forms.

But by following my own convictions, I avoid getting disappointed when the Christian church adjusts its thinking for expediency's sake, and often from a standpoint which made no logical sense in the first place (women clergy is an example except I wasn't disappointed in that case).

PS Where's Lush? She does World Affairs, Religion and Politics. Much more strident than me...!!!

[Dr The Singh]

I want to be Minister In Charge Of Making Lots Of Mistakes And Having Affairs... please can I please can I please please please?

Yes, DB, you can be minister of internal and external affairs!!

Macbeth, I don't seem to be able to uplad any pics, but our badge is the blue peter badge!!

Moseeds is the Foriegn Secretary - He is very useful of deferring any arguement the world with have with us!!!

[Ultra]

Macbeth, I don't seem to be able to upload any pics, but our badge is the blue peter badge!!

[Ultra]

Moseeds, why do you try to justify everything Muslims do wrong by referring to what the West or others do wrong?

Many of us have shouted long and hard against things that Bush, Blair, the CIA, MI5 and whoever else have done wrong but that doesn't help sort your fanatics out, does it?

Do you agree with beheadings?

Do you agree with honour killings?

Do you believe in stonings for erring women?

Do you believe charity workers should have their throats slit or whatever?

As if these kinds of things never happen in other countries or societies...

Don't say American soldiers slaughtered women and children in a house or treat prisoners disgustingly, the former will go on trial and the latter would be illegal in our society.

That's a very Utopian view. Most American soldiers take a vow of omerta about what they see and do on their tours of duty, just as they did in Vietnam. A few may be caught and punished if they are dumb enough to provide photographic evidence, but most atrocities are routinely denied.

[Daggers]

Yes, DB, you can be minister of internal and external affairs!!

Macbeth, I don't seem to be able to uplad any pics, but our badge is the blue peter badge!!

Moseeds is the Foriegn Secretary - He is very useful of deferring any arguement the world with have with us!!!

I'll take this out of this thread - it is worth expanding upon I think...

[Thracian]

As if these kinds of things never happen in other countries or societies...

That's a very Utopian view. Most American soldiers take a vow of omerta about what they see and do on their tours of duty, just as they did in Vietnam. A few may be caught and punished if they are dumb enough to provide photographic evidence, but most atrocities are routinely denied.

Still none of the above questions answered and yet it's not like you to be reticent. I tried to ask em simply.

And none of the other questions answered either - like whether Moslems can sell their property to non-Moslems.

Because if the answer is no, that means that any property purchased by a Muslim - both house and land, will remain in Moslem hands ad infinitum and therefore, bit by bit they could conceivably own the entire country eventually.

And yet if an English person refused to sell a house to a Muslim there would be trouble, however that could be fair and reasonable.

Please put me right on this matter. It is only ridiculous heresay and I would truly welcome an informed opinion as I would on whether a Muslim can freely reject his religion and bring his kids up as, for example, a Christian if he wishes.

[crazy horse]

Still none of the above questions answered and yet it's not like you to be reticent. I tried to ask em simply.

And none of the other questions answered either - like whether Moslems can sell their property to non-Moslems.

Because if the answer is no, that means that any property purchased by a Muslim - both house and land, will remain in Moslem hands ad infinitum and therefore, bit by bit they could conceivably own the entire country eventually.

And yet if an English person refused to sell a house to a Muslim there would be trouble, however that could be fair and reasonable.

Please put me right on this matter. It is only ridiculous heresay and I would truly welcome an informed opinion as I would on whether a Muslim can freely reject his religion and bring his kids up as, for example, a Christian if he wishes.

i think you will be waiting a long time for unequivocal answers to these questions expect more of the same "yanks are worse bullshit"

[macbeth]

i think you will be waiting a long time for unequivocal answers to these questions expect more of the same "yanks are worse bullshit"

i agree thracians asking reasonable questions that need clear and concise answers otherwise islam will continue to be viewed with deep suspicion by many in the west

[TrickyTrev]

Do you agree with beheadings?

Do you agree with honour killings?

Do you believe in stonings for erring women?

Do you believe charity workers should have their throats slit or whatever?

Ofcoruse he doesn't but what the fock does that have to do with Israel occupying lands that don't belong to them? Unless ofcourse you want to simplify the situation into Israel=Good and Arabs=Evil.

[TrickyTrev]

i agree thracians asking reasonable questions that need clear and concise answers otherwise islam will continue to be viewed with deep suspicion by many in the west

Well as a card carrying Athiest I hope anybody would hold any religion with a deep lying supicion, especially when it starts trying to implement dated moral codes. However, I still feel to see what this has to do with a teritorry war?

[macbeth]

Well as a card carrying Athiest I hope anybody would hold any religion with a deep lying supicion, especially when it starts trying to implement dated moral codes. However, I still feel to see what this has to do with a teritorry war?

point taken and i agree as i too am athiest; however the debate has shifted quite a lot from it over the past few days with accusation and counter accusation flying around.......don't know if you have been following it but thats just how it has evolved ..........but as an athiest i find some religious dogma tolerable others not so

[Daggers]

point taken and i agree as i too am athiest; however the debate has shifted quite a lot from it over the past few days with accusation and counter accusation flying around.......don't know if you have been following it but thats just how it has evolved ..........

...and it is pointless.

The thread has degenerated into a 'my belief system kicks your belief systems ass', full of 'have you stopped beating your wife' style questions.

There seems to be a lack of empathy for alternate points of view if you ask me...

[macbeth]

...and it is pointless.

The thread has degenerated into a 'my belief system kicks your belief systems ass', full of 'have you stopped beating your wife' style questions.

There seems to be a lack of empathy for alternate points of view if you ask me...

we could all be tolerant of alternative views if all of the alternative views were tolerant ........however thracians questions have been asked and i feel they should be answered

i wouldn't tolerate nazi views;as i'm sure you wouldn't..... and if religious dogma is dressed up with similar views i think it is right to question them

[TrickyTrev]

we could all be tolerant of alternative views if all of the alternative views were tolerant ........however thracians questions have been asked and i feel they should be answered

i wouldn't tolerate nazi views;as i'm sure you wouldn't..... and if religious dogma is dressed up with similar views i think it is right to question them

I am pointing out that grumbles with Islam have very little to do with this particular conflict. Hizbollah and Hamas are both Islamic groups (with significant sectarian conflicts btw) but they are in conflict with Israel over land not over whether adulterers should have their heads chopped off. I worry that peoples general disatisfaction with Islam may lead to them having less sympathy for the Lebonese and Palestinian disposessed and prevent a full understanding over what potentially legitimate grumbles Hizbollah and Hamas have. (Not that I condone terrorism, I am just realistic enough to know that an end to this Middle East conflict will only come about when Israel accepts the borders that International Law decrees them not what they believe they can get away with)

Although i really don't want to go down that road, The Old Testament is a pretty nasty piece of literature if we are going to have a which religion is the badest debate.

[Thracian]

I am pointing out that grumbles with Islam have very little to do with this particular conflict. Hizbollah and Hamas are both Islamic groups (with significant sectarian conflicts btw) but they are in conflict with Israel over land not over whether adulterers should have their heads chopped off. I worry that peoples general disatisfaction with Islam may lead to them having less sympathy for the Lebonese and Palestinian disposessed and prevent a full understanding over what potentially legitimate grumbles Hizbollah and Hamas have. (Not that I condone terrorism, I am just realistic enough to know that an end to this Middle East conflict will only come about when Israel accepts the borders that International Law decrees them not what they believe they can get away with)

Although i really don't want to go down that road, The Old Testament is a pretty nasty piece of literature if we are going to have a which religion is the badest debate.

If - and I have asked if - a Muslim cannot sell his house and land to a non-Muslim then are we not being quietly dispossessed?

[Daggers]

If - and I have asked if - a Muslim cannot sell his house and land to a non-Muslim then are we not being quietly dispossessed?

As someone that has been hunting houses over the last month - where does this question even come from? Over half the properties I have looked at have been owned by Muslim families, all too eager to sell it to me.

On top of that, what has the redistribution of property got to do with the ridiculous situation in Lebanon?

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Well as a card carrying Athiest I hope anybody would hold any religion with a deep lying supicion, especially when it starts trying to implement dated moral codes. However, I still feel to see what this has to do with a teritorry war?

This is pretty narrow minded, and you sound like a hippy. If anything, people could hold 'card carrying atheists' with a deep lying suspicion, as some of them tend to bitch and moan about things that will never affect them just because they're uncomfortable with other people's beliefs.

But instead I realise that not all atheists are like that, and as individuals many just don't care and that's that. Same with religious sorts, many just stick to their own thing. But some like to push their point just like atheists, doesn't mean you should hold them with a 'deep lying suspicion.'