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Daggers

Absolute *** of our time Pt.MXXVI

By Daggers, in General Chat

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted (edited)

That's quite an allegation Mac if you have no evidence to back it up.

 

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,953237,00.html

 

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/torgan.htm

 

Sadly the Time article is behind a paywall, but the Wiki article on Paisley is pretty clear with the references.

 

He established at least two paramilitary associations according to that, and I'm pretty sure they weren't formed for selling hot cross buns to all and sundry.

 

Honestly, I have no real horse in this race (as you do), but as I said I don't think either side can say they're whiter than white. It all stank.

Edited by leicsmac
Bellend Sebastian

Bellend Sebastian

Posted
Posted

Anyone listen to that thing on Radio 4 last night about the culture of sexual predation in Westminster last night?

 

Fascinating, but ultimately depressing listening.  All the major parties as bad as each other for it, apparently.

 

Not really a place that boys should go for work experience, by the sound of it

  • Like 1
Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

Posted
Posted

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,953237,00.html

 

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/torgan.htm

 

Sadly the Time article is behind a paywall, but the Wiki article on Paisley is pretty clear with the references.

 

He established at least two paramilitary associations according to that, and I'm pretty sure they weren't formed for selling hot cross buns to all and sundry.

 

Honestly, I have no real horse in this race (as you do), but as I said I don't think either side can say they're whiter than white. It all stank.

 

I didn't realise that Paisley had had any involvement with paramilitary groups, though the ones on Wiki sound a bit like Dad's Army - not a serious loyalist counterpart to the IRA, like the UVF and UDA were. Paisley mainly devoted himself to less militaristic activities: promoting sectarian strife, anti-Catholic bigotry, fiercely protecting protestant privilege, cvntish stuff like that.

 

When I was at uni in the 90s, they organised a  series of seminars about Northern Ireland with some major figures. One was David Ervine, leader of the Popular Unionist Party, the political wing of the UVF (so, a counterpart to Sinn Fein). He was interesting and impressive & had more time for Sinn Fein than he had for Trimble or Paisley! He saw himself as both British and Irish, and felt the likes of Trimble and Paisley just protected the interests of middle-class Protestants, doing nothing for working-class loyalists, whom he felt were as hard done by as the working-class Catholics represented by Sinn Fein or the SDLP.

 

I hope they know what they're doing over the Adams arrest. It's a difficult one. On the one hand, the family deserve justice for the barbarity perpetrated on their mother - and if Adams did order the killing (he denies it), then normally he should go to jail. But then, do you also jail the Paras who shot innocent civilians at Bloody Sunday and all the other IRA and loyalist terrorists? Where would that leave the peace process? How about a South African style "Peace & Reconciliation Commission"? But what about those guilty of barbaric murders on all sides?

 

Before I bring a "No Surrender" fire storm down on my head, I should clarify my position: I'm English-born of mainly Irish family, but have no time for British or Irish nationalism, never mind terrorism. Back in the 90s, I nearly had a punch-up with an Anglo-Irish friend who said that I couldn't claim to be part-Irish if I didn't support the Warrington bombing (2 young lads killed by an IRA bomb placed in a wastepaper basket). I just hope that Northern Ireland can become a fair and peaceful part of the UK - or of Ireland, if the majority ever want that, and that there's no return to violence on either side of the Irish Sea.

  • Like 4
Rincewind

Rincewind

Posted
Posted

Anyone listen to that thing on Radio 4 last night about the culture of sexual predation in Westminster last night?

 

Fascinating, but ultimately depressing listening.  All the major parties as bad as each other for it, apparently.

 

Not really a place that boys should go for work experience, by the sound of it

Well most go to the same schools now. Eton is a breeding ground for them. There maybe some that are OK but it is hard to tell.

 

Story in one paper today about the richest MP who has criticized  the welfare state yet draws a couple of hundred grand a year from benefits from the tenants on his farm estate..

Then there are the MP's the ones that sold the PO and their friends bought the shares. Which ones can you trust?

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted

I didn't realise that Paisley had had any involvement with paramilitary groups, though the ones on Wiki sound a bit like Dad's Army - not a serious loyalist counterpart to the IRA, like the UVF and UDA were. Paisley mainly devoted himself to less militaristic activities: promoting sectarian strife, anti-Catholic bigotry, fiercely protecting protestant privilege, cvntish stuff like that.

 

When I was at uni in the 90s, they organised a  series of seminars about Northern Ireland with some major figures. One was David Ervine, leader of the Popular Unionist Party, the political wing of the UVF (so, a counterpart to Sinn Fein). He was interesting and impressive & had more time for Sinn Fein than he had for Trimble or Paisley! He saw himself as both British and Irish, and felt the likes of Trimble and Paisley just protected the interests of middle-class Protestants, doing nothing for working-class loyalists, whom he felt were as hard done by as the working-class Catholics represented by Sinn Fein or the SDLP.

 

I hope they know what they're doing over the Adams arrest. It's a difficult one. On the one hand, the family deserve justice for the barbarity perpetrated on their mother - and if Adams did order the killing (he denies it), then normally he should go to jail. But then, do you also jail the Paras who shot innocent civilians at Bloody Sunday and all the other IRA and loyalist terrorists? Where would that leave the peace process? How about a South African style "Peace & Reconciliation Commission"? But what about those guilty of barbaric murders on all sides?

 

Before I bring a "No Surrender" fire storm down on my head, I should clarify my position: I'm English-born of mainly Irish family, but have no time for British or Irish nationalism, never mind terrorism. Back in the 90s, I nearly had a punch-up with an Anglo-Irish friend who said that I couldn't claim to be part-Irish if I didn't support the Warrington bombing (2 young lads killed by an IRA bomb placed in a wastepaper basket). I just hope that Northern Ireland can become a fair and peaceful part of the UK - or of Ireland, if the majority ever want that, and that there's no return to violence on either side of the Irish Sea.

 

What I wanted to say/would have said if I wasn't knackered from work. Cheers Alf. +1. :thumbup:

Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,953237,00.html

 

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/torgan.htm

 

Sadly the Time article is behind a paywall, but the Wiki article on Paisley is pretty clear with the references.

 

He established at least two paramilitary associations according to that, and I'm pretty sure they weren't formed for selling hot cross buns to all and sundry.

 

Honestly, I have no real horse in this race (as you do), but as I said I don't think either side can say they're whiter than white. It all stank.

 

Alf has responded far better than I can but as I said earlier, nothing there is anywhere near to the level of the what the IRA committed.

 

 

I hope they know what they're doing over the Adams arrest. It's a difficult one. On the one hand, the family deserve justice for the barbarity perpetrated on their mother - and if Adams did order the killing (he denies it), then normally he should go to jail. But then, do you also jail the Paras who shot innocent civilians at Bloody Sunday and all the other IRA and loyalist terrorists? Where would that leave the peace process? How about a South African style "Peace & Reconciliation Commission"? But what about those guilty of barbaric murders on all sides?

 

The problem is unlike South Africa I don't think anyone here has actually told the truth for a while and crucially one side knew that they had done very wrong, both sides here still believe they are in the right. Gerry Adams still absurdly denies he was ever in the IRA, a claim so ridiculous even senior members go bright red whenever asked the question of it.

 

It would be nice to do something along those lines but has it really worked that well in South Africa? They seem to have just an unequal society as before aparthied when you look at the country now and certainly far less peaceful when it comes to crime and social behaviours etc It seemed more about satifying liberal guilt in the West than actually doing something positive for the country.

 

Does anyone really believe Northern Ireland is at peace? We still see riot police fighting with people every marching season, we have still seen bombs and bomb threats occur since the GFA, it looks from afar more like a enforced token ceasefire that could go off again at any minute.

 

They have to still see all things through regarding these hideous crimes I think, you can't have a just society if justice is ignored.

Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

Posted
Posted

The problem is unlike South Africa I don't think anyone here has actually told the truth for a while and crucially one side knew that they had done very wrong, both sides here still believe they are in the right. 

 

Does anyone really believe Northern Ireland is at peace? We still see riot police fighting with people every marching season, we have still seen bombs and bomb threats occur since the GFA, it looks from afar more like a enforced token ceasefire that could go off again at any minute.

 

They have to still see all things through regarding these hideous crimes I think, you can't have a just society if justice is ignored.

 

Good point that first one, about both sides still thinking they're right. But given the potential for long-term mayhem, maybe that's a further argument for doing everything to avoid a full resumption of conflict.

 

I know that there are still a lot of problems, but on nothing like the scale they were before - news of people being shot almost nightly, regular murderous bomb explosions, some of them in England... Maybe the longer there's comparative peace, the less grassroots support there'll be for a return to regular violence as people reap the benefits in terms of less tragedy, less stress and more economic investment/prosperity, even if the sectarian mistrust takes decades to resolve?

 

If the families who've lost loved ones to sectarian violence were offered a deal - justice for your murdered family member, but with a return to full-scale terrorist conflict - I wonder what they'd say? Hopefully, it will be possible to get both justice and peace, but I can't imagine Republicans reacting well if Adams gets banged up - or loyalists if the same happens to their leaders.

Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-27280187

'Western education is a sin'?

Go fvck yourselves, you ignorant intolerant fundamentalist tosspots. Neanderthal cretins. Really do hope they find those girls, but I doubt it will happen.

 

Another country feeling the wonderful enrichment of Islamism.

 

Finally it's all over the news today, western politicians actually prentending to care about Africa now, this group really must pose a threat.

 

Don't know whether you have missed it being away but we are having problems here with these sorts trying to take over schools in the Midlands to teach their own doctrine to young Muslims.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-26482599

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/10806862/City-fights-new-Trojan-Horse-Islamic-schools-plot.html

 

As much as people will try to fight it I think we onto a loser, if communities want theirr children to be taught things like this then who are the state to tell them they shouldn't? If you are going to have miss migration from countries where cultural traditions are so much different to our own then you also are going to have to accept a lot of them will not want to adhere to the traditions and views of the country they are landing in.

LanguedocFox

LanguedocFox

Posted
Posted

Another country feeling the wonderful enrichment of Islamism.

 

Finally it's all over the news today, western politicians actually prentending to care about Africa now, this group really must pose a threat.

 

Don't know whether you have missed it being away but we are having problems here with these sorts trying to take over schools in the Midlands to teach their own doctrine to young Muslims.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-26482599

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/10806862/City-fights-new-Trojan-Horse-Islamic-schools-plot.html

 

As much as people will try to fight it I think we onto a loser, if communities want theirr children to be taught things like this then who are the state to tell them they shouldn't? If you are going to have miss migration from countries where cultural traditions are so much different to our own then you also are going to have to accept a lot of them will not want to adhere to the traditions and views of the country they are landing in.

 

 

Here in France, they have a very simple solution which should, in my view, be used in the UK. All education is strictly secular, and in schools no-one (pupils or teachers) is allowed to wear overt religious symbols. These include Christian crosses, yamulkas, hijabs, veils or anything else that betokens a religious belief.

 

The active encouragement of faith schools by that sanctimonious pr!ck Tony Bliar was a recipe for disaster, the results of which will be inflicted on moderate people (of all persuasions) in the UK for generations to come. What beggars belief is that the stupid cvnt couldn't see it, despite the impact that religious bigotry has had in Northern Ireland for the past 200 years or more.

  • Like 2
Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

Posted
Posted (edited)

Another country feeling the wonderful enrichment of Islamism.

 

Don't know whether you have missed it being away but we are having problems here with these sorts trying to take over schools in the Midlands to teach their own doctrine to young Muslims.

 

As much as people will try to fight it I think we onto a loser, if communities want theirr children to be taught things like this then who are the state to tell them they shouldn't? If you are going to have miss migration from countries where cultural traditions are so much different to our own then you also are going to have to accept a lot of them will not want to adhere to the traditions and views of the country they are landing in.

 

Who is the state to tell them about education in this country? It is - or should be - the servant of the people, controlled by its democratic representatives. 

 

Instead of promoting faith schools of every type, as successive governments have done, parliament should be legislating to make them illegal! Why should parliament and the state connive in the indoctrination of children? Schools should teach children about the different ideas that exist about religion (Christianity, humanism/atheism, Islam etc.), just as they should teach them about the different ideas that exist about politics (conservatism, socialism, liberalism, fascism, anarchism etc.) but, above all, they should help and encourage kids to think for themselves. The state can't control what parents choose to teach their kids at home or in the community, provided that it's legal, but it shouldn't connive in indoctrination of ANY sort.

 

I do think that we need to avoid confusing "Islamist" and "Muslim", though, just as we shouldn't confuse UKIP with the Ku-Klux Klan! Maybe some of the attempts at controlling schools are by Islamists, but others are by more mainstream Muslims, who definitely aren't seeking to replace democracy with an Islamic state. I'm opposed to either bunch indoctrinating children - likewise Christians, atheists, conservatives or socialists - but some types of indoctrination are more destructive than others. 

Edited by Alf Bentley
  • Like 1
Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

Here in France, they have a very simple solution which should, in my view, be used in the UK. All education is strictly secular, and in schools no-one (pupils or teachers) is allowed to wear overt religious symbols. These include Christian crosses, yamulkas, hijabs, veils or anything else that betokens a religious belief.

 

The active encouragement of faith schools by that sanctimonious pr!ck Tony Bliar was a recipe for disaster, the results of which will be inflicted on moderate people (of all persuasions) in the UK for generations to come. What beggars belief is that the stupid cvnt couldn't see it, despite the impact that religious bigotry has had in Northern Ireland for the past 200 years or more.

 

Problem is here we have already set our stall out to an extent of being so tolerant we have been completely walked over and it has become the norm, we have altered aspects of our justice system and marriage laws to bend over to immigrants and it's created such an entitlement culture within them even major food chains have changed their menus and product to suit the minority rather than the majority.

 

In France they haven't done though so they could ban the veil etc and be able to pass it off, we have seen the scales tipped so far the other way here under the guise of the new state religion of "multiculturalism" that any attempt at a reversal would probably resort in serious civil unrest and serious problems with regard to community cohesion in areas affected.

Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

Who is the state to tell them about education in this country? It is - or should be - the servant of the people, controlled by its democratic representatives. 

 

Instead of promoting faith schools of every type, as successive governments have done, parliament should be legislating to make them illegal! Why should parliament and the state connive in the indoctrination of children? Schools should teach children about the different ideas that exist about religion (Christianity, humanism/atheism, Islam etc.), just as they should teach them about the different ideas that exist about politics (conservatism, socialism, liberalism, fascism, anarchism etc.) but, above all, they should help and encourage kids to think for themselves. The state can't control what parents choose to teach their kids at home or in the community, provided that it's legal, but it shouldn't connive in indoctrination of ANY sort.

 

I do think that we need to avoid confusing "Islamist" and "Muslim", though, just as we shouldn't confuse UKIP with the Ku-Klux Klan! Maybe some of the attempts at controlling schools are by Islamists, but others are by more mainstream Muslims, who definitely aren't seeking to replace democracy with an Islamic state. I'm opposed to either bunch indoctrinating children - likewise Christians, atheists, conservatives or socialists - but some types of indoctrination are more destructive than others. 

 

But the people don't want to make them illegal, I would imagine a lot of Christians would want their children educated at a school with that ethos and you can guarantee when it comes to the Islamic community the figure would be far far higher.

 

Who has confused Islamist with Muslim? I certainly haven't.

 

I'll avoid the obvious UKIP slander that seems to be coming more common, keep throwing the mud, some might stick eventually.

bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted

They haven't been kidnapped, they've been enslaved. And since this practice seems still to be acceptable to certain groups, maybe white Europeans can stop with all the colonial guilt bullshit we've been subjected to.

Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

They haven't been kidnapped, they've been enslaved. And since this practice seems still to be acceptable to certain groups, maybe white Europeans can stop with all the colonial guilt bullshit we've been subjected to.

 

Spot on, it's quite sickening, some of the stuff I've heard our politicians spouting today has nearly made me vomit considering their own actions (and inactions) over the last few years.

Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

Posted
Posted

Problem is here we have already set our stall out to an extent of being so tolerant we have been completely walked over and it has become the norm, we have altered aspects of our justice system and marriage laws to bend over to immigrants and it's created such an entitlement culture within them even major food chains have changed their menus and product to suit the minority rather than the majority.

 

In France they haven't done though so they could ban the veil etc and be able to pass it off, we have seen the scales tipped so far the other way here under the guise of the new state religion of "multiculturalism" that any attempt at a reversal would probably resort in serious civil unrest and serious problems with regard to community cohesion in areas affected.

 

I don't know enough about the changes made to justice/laws to comment in detail, but my impression is that they're peripheral - and the state should indeed cater for the minority as well as the majority, provided that doesn't undermine important legal or democratic principles supported by the majority. That isn't an "entitlement culture", it's tolerance of diversity compatible with continuing democracy.

 

Changes in menus and on supermarket shelves are a commercial decision, though, based on consumer demand - and I'm afraid that couscous has become to France what chicken tikka massala has become to Britain!

 

Multi-culturalism can indeed be a problem, but only if particular groups refuse to integrate to any extent (so, yes, that is a problem with some Muslims) or if other groups refuse to show tolerance of difference. Inter-culturalism - the encouragement of cross-community initiatives and contact - would help in this, as would housing policies that discouraged the formation of cultural ghettos - and a ban on faith schools!

 

But the people don't want to make them illegal, I would imagine a lot of Christians would want their children educated at a school with that ethos and you can guarantee when it comes to the Islamic community the figure would be far far higher.

 

Who has confused Islamist with Muslim? I certainly haven't.

 

I'll avoid the obvious UKIP slander that seems to be coming more common, keep throwing the mud, some might stick eventually.

 

Fair enough, the people might not want faith schools to be illegal, but I'm just expressing my opinion - and the boom in faith schools was largely due to government initiatives, not mass demand. I don't remember mass campaigns for faith schools, they were largely introduced by "that sanctimonious pr!ck Tony Bliar" (as Languedoc Fox accurately describes him) and are now being actively encouraged by that other sanctimonious pr!ck David Cameron.

 

Lots of people want faith schools because they think that they'll be like private schools on the cheap, getting little Johnnie a better education than his mates without having to stump up private school fees. I know 6 kids who go to the local Christian faith school and only 1 of the 6 comes from a Christian family, the others are from greasy-pole-climbing families.... It's the same as when people want to "bring back grammar schools", because they think it'll help their kids get ahead of the plebs; I've never heard anyone say they wanted to "bring back secondary moderns", which is where 75%-80% of kids go under a selective education system!  lol

 

As for my "UKIP slander", I said that "we shouldn't confuse UKIP with the Ku-Klux Klan". The parallel was UKIP/mainstream Muslims, on the one hand, versus Islamists/Ku-Klux Klan, on the other. Whereas you started off, with every justification, by making a hostile comment about murderous Islamist kidnappers in Nigeria - and then went on to say that "these sorts are trying to take over schools in the Midlands to teach their own doctrine to young Muslims".....so, unless the people trying to take over schools in the Midlands are the equivalent of Boko Haram, it seems to me that you did confuse Islamists with Muslims!

Finnegan

Finnegan

Posted
Posted

Was going to just make the point Alf did in regards food chains etc changing the products / services they offer.

Absolutely nothing to do with political correctness and purely wanting to keep their consumer base as wide as possible.

Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted (edited)

Was going to just make the point Alf did in regards food chains etc changing the products / services they offer.

Absolutely nothing to do with political correctness and purely wanting to keep their consumer base as wide as possible.

 

Interesting that (apart from KFC) none of them decided to either put on show or tell people they were using Halal products though, it may have been good business to do that not telling people as people can't make a choice if they don't know, it might not be now it's been splashed across the front page of the rags over the last few days and people know what they are eating.

 

A lot of people will be very uncomfortable eating food they know hasn't been killed in accordance with what we regard as normal procedure and instead killed concious while the butcher shouts to please an imaginery man in the sky.

 

Even the RSPCA are now saying we should come into line with countries like Denamrk and ban Kosher and Halal slaughter and they have deliberately ignored this issue (I imagine for fears of being branded such and such).

 

I don't know enough about the changes made to justice/laws to comment in detail, but my impression is that they're peripheral - and the state should indeed cater for the minority as well as the majority, provided that doesn't undermine important legal or democratic principles supported by the majority. That isn't an "entitlement culture", it's tolerance of diversity compatible with continuing democracy.

 

Changes in menus and on supermarket shelves are a commercial decision, though, based on consumer demand - and I'm afraid that couscous has become to France what chicken tikka massala has become to Britain!

 

Multi-culturalism can indeed be a problem, but only if particular groups refuse to integrate to any extent (so, yes, that is a problem with some Muslims) or if other groups refuse to show tolerance of difference. Inter-culturalism - the encouragement of cross-community initiatives and contact - would help in this, as would housing policies that discouraged the formation of cultural ghettos - and a ban on faith schools!

 

 

Fair enough, the people might not want faith schools to be illegal, but I'm just expressing my opinion - and the boom in faith schools was largely due to government initiatives, not mass demand. I don't remember mass campaigns for faith schools, they were largely introduced by "that sanctimonious pr!ck Tony Bliar" (as Languedoc Fox accurately describes him) and are now being actively encouraged by that other sanctimonious pr!ck David Cameron.

 

Lots of people want faith schools because they think that they'll be like private schools on the cheap, getting little Johnnie a better education than his mates without having to stump up private school fees. I know 6 kids who go to the local Christian faith school and only 1 of the 6 comes from a Christian family, the others are from greasy-pole-climbing families.... It's the same as when people want to "bring back grammar schools", because they think it'll help their kids get ahead of the plebs; I've never heard anyone say they wanted to "bring back secondary moderns", which is where 75%-80% of kids go under a selective education system!  lol

 

As for my "UKIP slander", I said that "we shouldn't confuse UKIP with the Ku-Klux Klan". The parallel was UKIP/mainstream Muslims, on the one hand, versus Islamists/Ku-Klux Klan, on the other. Whereas you started off, with every justification, by making a hostile comment about murderous Islamist kidnappers in Nigeria - and then went on to say that "these sorts are trying to take over schools in the Midlands to teach their own doctrine to young Muslims".....so, unless the people trying to take over schools in the Midlands are the equivalent of Boko Haram, it seems to me that you did confuse Islamists with Muslims!

 

Not the equivalent of Boko Harem of course, but given what we have seen from these people in the Madrassas I imagine the teaching they will intend to preach wouldn't be too far off what an Islamist would teach, the fact they were ousting headmasters shows they weren't exactly going to be going along with the normal cirriculum.

 

I think as soon as you start appeasing minorities you go down a very dangerous path, as was discussed in another thread we had regarding Sharia being used now it may be peripheral to the law but it allows you to actually avoid the law and treat people as unequals based on their gender.

 

I don't see how you can avoid the formation of cultural ghettos, it's happened in every country and city I've been too from Auckland to San Francisco, despite their 'tolerance' the middle classes don't want to live with them, they need cheap housing, they probably want to stick together themselves anyway as its easier regarding language etc to live. Too many votes in it as well I'd imagine, the Labour party isn't going to want to spread the people of Leicester East out are they while they run the city? They knew when they couldn't really on the working class vote anymore they had to import a new one that would, the last thing they want to give them is some aspiration.

 

No idea on Grammar Schools myself as it's before my time, it does read aa a postive argument to bring them back though assuming your intention is to raise standards of education and give bright students from poor backgrounds some hope in life. Obviously due to that the lefties will despise. :whistle: Keep them down, the rich don't vote for us.

Edited by MattP
Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

Posted
Posted

 

Not the equivalent of Boko Harem of course, but given what we have seen from these people in the Madrassas I imagine the teaching they will intend to preach wouldn't be too far off what an Islamist would teach, the fact they were ousting headmasters shows they weren't exactly going to be going along with the normal cirriculum.

 

I don't see how you can avoid the formation of cultural ghettos, it's happened in every country and city I've been too from Auckland to San Francisco, despite their 'tolerance' the middle classes don't want to live with them, they need cheap housing, they probably want to stick together themselves anyway as its easier regarding language etc to live. Too many votes in it as well I'd imagine, the Labour party isn't going to want to spread the people of Leicester East out are they while they run the city? They knew when they couldn't really on the working class vote anymore they had to import a new one that would, the last thing they want to give them is some aspiration.

 

No idea on Grammar Schools myself as it's before my time, it does read aa a postive argument to bring them back though assuming your intention is to raise standards of education and give bright students from poor backgrounds some hope in life. Obviously due to that the lefties will despise. :whistle: Keep them down, the rich don't vote for us.

 

If "Boko Haram" means "Western Education strictly verboten" or whatever, what does "Boko Harem" mean? "Western Education in a brothel"?! Sounds like the sort of trendy modern methods you might normally condemn! lol Glad to see you distinguishing between such dissolute conduct and narrow-minded people trying to indoctrinate kids in Brum, anyway!

 

Very good point re. the difficulty of avoiding the formation of cultural ghettos. New immigrants, particularly from a poor or uneducated background, will tend to congregate together, as you say - and the middle-classes will seek to advance themselves by avoiding them. Just because it's difficult, doesn't mean it's impossible, though. I'm no expert on council planning and know that councils have been starved of power/funds for 35 years, but surely it's possible for the council to plan for services (e.g. allocation of council housing, access to schools, location of community/sports centres, staging of cultural events) to encourage contact between different racial groups so as to reduce mistrust? It won't influence the extremists, but if we can avoid mainstream Muslims being drawn into Islamism or caring, moderate UKIP voters being influenced by the far-right, surely that's a good thing?  :ph34r:

 

I appreciate that grammar schools are old history in Leicestershire, but they still exist in other parts of the country, including Kent, where I went to school. I went to a grammar school and the vast majority of the lads there came from middle-class homes. Like 80% of pupils in a selective system, my brother went to the secondary modern. A massively higher proportion of them came from working-class homes. Don't fall for the "grammar schools are good for bright students from poor backgrounds" line. Like faith schools and the avoidance of cultural ghettos, the whole point of grammar schools now is to provide privilege without fees for the middle classes. Yes, a few bright, working class kids will get on, but so they will in comprehensives. I repeat: under selective education, about 20% go to grammar schools, but 80% go to secondary moderns....and when the hell did you ever hear anyone say "bring back secondary moderns"?!?

 

Personally, I think too many kids go on to university, too little provision is made for apprenticeships - and I also believe in streaming by subject within comprehensives (unless some credible teacher can convince me that, say, 15-year-olds at vastly different levels and with vastly different attitudes can be taught successfully within the same class)....but there's a big difference between that and dividing kids terminally at age 11 (no kids joined my grammar school from secondary moderns between 11-16; half a dozen did switch for the sixth-form, but they all had an inferiority complex - and most of the few working class kids left at 16). That's quite apart from the divisions it creates - as 1 of 2 lads locally who went "to grammar", I lost all meaningful contact with my primary school friends and it created divisions with my brother that exist to this day, 30 years later...

  • 3 weeks later...

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