FAO BNP Voters (And BNP Haters)

[Finnegan]

They always seem fairly natural soul-mates to me. And if Aneurin Bevan were in charge of the Labour Party I still think you'd vote Labour. You just find it hard to associate yourself with this bunch of losers but I think your instinctive defence of all things socialist is deeply ingrained, though apologies if I'm mistaken.

Yes. I am quite obviously pretty far to the Left in terms of my politics. But Labout are not, they're distinctly centerist and do not represent my political beliefs very accurately.

And your argument that I and my socialist brethren voted them in and am now living to regret it as also false as I did not vote for them.

[Guest]

a) So four years ago, more kids were dropping out of uni. And when these kids drop out of university, what kind of jobs are they looking for? I'll give you a clue; it's not the kind of work that employers are having to use migrant workers for.

b) The unemployment figures will include those who have no intention of looking for work. This report indicates that there are vacancies available. It also states that 25% are still on jobseekers after 6 months, so where are the other 75%?

One other thing worth noting is the new immigration policy; we have a points based system now. This will limit the numbers of non-EU migrant workers coming to the UK. It has been suggested that the Labour government has introduced this in response to public opinion and concerns over immigration. This is something that I have mentioned on numerous occasions, as have other posters. I don't know how many more times I need to post it before you understand I am not ignoring the point you refer to.

c) No discrimination is fair, but the one example you have given concerns an organisation that is seen to be racist, and is having difficulty in recruiting from ethnic, as well as other, minority groups. Representation of these groups, as already stated, is disproportionate to the nation, let alone the community it purports to support. As I asked in my last post, how exactly should this discrepancy be rectified?

[Webbo]

It's very hard to discuss immigration without knee jerk accusations of racism. From what I've read of Thracian's posts I haven't seen anywhere where he's said that immigrants are in any way inferior.Being sceptical about the economic benefits of immigration doesn't necessarily make you a racist.

Positive discrimination for 1 person will always mean negative discrimination to someone else. The example of the police is a good 1. I have a nephew who applied to join the police a few years ago. He's 6'3" has 'A' levels, well built, just what you'd expect a policeman to look like. . Coming from Rushey Mead most of his friends were/are asian, there is no way he could be described as racist.

Unfortunately he got turned down, we don't know if it was because he was white but it's quite possible. He doesn't think to himself 'ah well it's good for society that ethnic minorities are better represented' he thinks ' what have I done? Why can't I have the job of my dreams?'

[lou]

There always has been and always will be a lot of people on benefits who could find work but just dont want to. A lot of kids that my Son went to school with live with their parents and are happy to live off job seekers for beer money and wander round town all week. They are all more than capable of doing something but wont consider a lot of work. My own Son left college and spent months looking for a job but would not entertain a lot of stuff we suggested like McDonalds, shop work (unless it was a designer shop!) or cleaning etc. Im sorry but if you were desperate to get a job you would take what you could get and keep looking for something better. My lad found a brilliant job as a roofing apprentice now but could have got by for 6 months just doing whatever he could IMO.

[Guest]

It's very hard to discuss immigration without knee jerk accusations of racism. From what I've read of Thracian's posts I haven't seen anywhere where he's said that immigrants are in any way inferior.Being sceptical about the economic benefits of immigration doesn't necessarily make you a racist.

Positive discrimination for 1 person will always mean negative discrimination to someone else. The example of the police is a good 1. I have a nephew who applied to join the police a few years ago. He's 6'3" has 'A' levels, well built, just what you'd expect a policeman to look like. . Coming from Rushey Mead most of his friends were/are asian, there is no way he could be described as racist.

Unfortunately he got turned down, we don't know if it was because he was white but it's quite possible. He doesn't think to himself 'ah well it's good for society that ethnic minorities are better represented' he thinks ' what have I done? Why can't I have the job of my dreams?'

You've seen Sir Fynwy - he's intelligent (), tall and athletically built, but he was turned down for the police because he failed the attitude test, as he was seen as "too liberal". It's always worth asking for feedback, and finding out why you haven't been successful wherever possible.

[Edmund]

England To Set Up Border Fences And Patrols To Stop Immigrants From Scotland Reaching London To Beg

The UK Government has announced plans to set up a border fence to run parallel with the ancient Roman wall built by Adrian Mole and have armed border guards to patrol it to deter illegal Scottish Immigrants reaching London Tube Stations.

"Everyday I walk to work and I am accosted by these drunken scruffy Scotsmen wreaking of McEwan's and talking in tongues - well no more!" said racist Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

Many Scots try to infiltrate the border looking to take our jobs, for a healthier diet, better looking women and to seek better (state provided) housing.

"They are our Mexicans!" screamed one man, which was totally unnecessary, as I was lying next to him on the beach.

Plans to build a fence separating England from Wales are also being discussed.

"They are just as bad," said shopkeeper Aziz Khan of Luton - "They are always taking the mickey out of my accent."

Back in business I see

Nice one

[lou]

It's very hard to discuss immigration without knee jerk accusations of racism. From what I've read of Thracian's posts I haven't seen anywhere where he's said that immigrants are in any way inferior.Being sceptical about the economic benefits of immigration doesn't necessarily make you a racist.

Positive discrimination for 1 person will always mean negative discrimination to someone else. The example of the police is a good 1. I have a nephew who applied to join the police a few years ago. He's 6'3" has 'A' levels, well built, just what you'd expect a policeman to look like. . Coming from Rushey Mead most of his friends were/are asian, there is no way he could be described as racist.

Unfortunately he got turned down, we don't know if it was because he was white but it's quite possible. He doesn't think to himself 'ah well it's good for society that ethnic minorities are better represented' he thinks ' what have I done? Why can't I have the job of my dreams?'

My cousin is the Son of a Police Inpector, had brilliant qualifications, lovely personality and was desperate to join the police force, passed his interview etc and was then turned down at medical stage because of his bad ACNE. (Which cleared up within a couple of years). There could have been all manner of reasons they turned your Nephew down, Im sorry they did, but I hope it wasnt due to his colour. They should be obliged to give him feedback Id have thought?

[Suffolk_fox]

I think so many people prescribe to the 'one big lump of jobs' theory - that there are a finite number of jobs to fill.

This is utter nonsense - people moving into a country CREATES more jobs. These people need food, water, electricity, homes, transport etc. You may as well say that the birth rate in this country threatens future jobs!

Migrants are very important to our economy. If this wasn't true, there would be many more 'White British' janitors in Tesco's, fruit and veg pickers etc. They do the jobs that others won't/can't afford to do.

I personally have never had a problem finding a job. I was unemployed from November last year to January this, but December is traditionally a tight time jobwise. If I lived in an area where I couldn't get a job, I'd MOVE!! If I didn't have the skills, I would train! God knows there is enough funding for training (I know, my job involves finding it!) - my point is that there are hundreds of thousands of so called 'British' people who I would kick out of the country before our hard working immigrants.

I would defend the right of the BNP to exist, however they should not carry out illegal actions or hold illegal views. And whilst I defend people's rights to vote for them, I would still condemn them as uninformed/bigoted.

[Thracian]

I think the problem here is that you're blaming everything on 'socialism'. I don't think that's the case. Deep down these problems are social, not economic. Social mobility is higher than ever before now, but still an disenfranchised underclass locked into a cycle of poor parenting and poor education persists. How do you solve that? How do you ensure kids with parents who don't give two shits about whether or not they go to school or give handjobs for extra pocket money or whatever are allowed to fulfil their potential rather than becoming exactly the same 10 years down the line except with two kids themselves?

How do you sort that out without over-burdening an education system where teachers are already being asked to be parent, social worker and teacher all at once? How do you do that without partially abandoning the Welfare State, which although seeming sensible at first, would leave many of the deserving poor in the lurch and drive people to lives of crime?

They are good questions but you don't start by holding back the brightest or anyone else for that matter.

What you do instead of trying to treat everyone as "equal" is to understand that they are widely different and to tailor education and inspiration towards making the best of different types of people...the practical, the sporting, the artistic, the cultural, the scientifically minded, the aggressive and the reserved etc.

You get kids involved in clubs and organisations that suit them and you encourage parents to take a pride in their kids and in themselves.

You teach them that the need to compete and to survive is a part of life and organise things to ensure that they get some proper insight into the demands of being competitive, learning to survive and on being able to withstand and respond to mental challenges and pressures.

Get kids and people to achieve things and enjoy the thrill of achieving things however inconsequential those things may seem at first.

Getting kids involved with aspects of healthy living and in caring for animals is good too. None of that is new but I just don't think there's enough of it. Or enough facilities. Or enough sustained direction, commitment and continuity. Continuity is important.

We waste so much money yet could give so much more to providing a stimulating environment for young people and for their parents.

Take aggression. In every way it seems to be frowned on. Yet many people are aggressive. But can they learn to box in school or to become proficient in the martial arts? No. How ridiculous.

Not only do such skills give a focus for people's aggression but with the proper tuition they learn discipline and as their skills develop they learn about pride in their performance. They also learn how good it feels to be fit and about how to lose with dignity and to win with humility.

From there it is a small step to channelling those skills and benefits into helping others develop similarly and tackling the responsibility necessary for doing that. In the end there are endless career opportunities and Mr Aggressive, far from being ostracised, eventually develops as a person with a sense of purpose and of personal worth.

Education is a must. Stimulating education is priceless.

Today's society so often rewards failure when the focus should always be the drive for success and achievement but, yes, the more people who can be involved and associated with any success the better. And that calls for selfless and inspiring leadership at every level. Sadly we don't even have it at the top.

[coale39]

I think so many people prescribe to the 'one big lump of jobs' theory - that there are a finite number of jobs to fill.

This is utter nonsense - people moving into a country CREATES more jobs. These people need food, water, electricity, homes, transport etc. You may as well say that the birth rate in this country threatens future jobs!

Migrants are very important to our economy. If this wasn't true, there would be many more 'White British' janitors in Tesco's, fruit and veg pickers etc. They do the jobs that others won't/can't afford to do.

I personally have never had a problem finding a job. I was unemployed from November last year to January this, but December is traditionally a tight time jobwise. If I lived in an area where I couldn't get a job, I'd MOVE!! If I didn't have the skills, I would train! God knows there is enough funding for training (I know, my job involves finding it!) - my point is that there are hundreds of thousands of so called 'British' people who I would kick out of the country before our hard working immigrants.

I would defend the right of the BNP to exist, however they should not carry out illegal actions or hold illegal views. And whilst I defend people's rights to vote for them, I would still condemn them as uninformed/bigoted.

[Webbo]

I would defend the right of the BNP to exist, however they should not carry out illegal actions or hold illegal views. And whilst I defend people's rights to vote for them, I would still condemn them as uninformed/bigoted.

There should be no such thing as illegal views only illegal actions.When the govt can outlaw opinions then we really will be being governed by fascists.

[coale39]

There should be no such thing as illegal views only illegal actions.When the govt can outlaw opinions then we really will be being governed by fascists.

Exception for racist views?

[Webbo]

Exception for racist views?

Who decides what is racist though?There are people on here who think reading the Daily Mail makes you worse than Hitler. Where does it all end? As long as your thoughts stay in your head and you don't do anything malicious against the people you hate then you're entitled to think what you like.

[stez]

Who decides what is racist though?There are people on here who think reading the Daily Mail makes you worse than Hitler. Where does it all end? As long as your thoughts stay in your head and you don't do anything malicious against the people you hate then you're entitled to think what you like.

the thought police?

[Thracian]

I think so many people prescribe to the 'one big lump of jobs' theory - that there are a finite number of jobs to fill.

a) This is utter nonsense - people moving into a country CREATES more jobs. These people need food, water, electricity, homes, transport etc. You may as well say that the birth rate in this country threatens future jobs!

b) Migrants are very important to our economy. If this wasn't true, there would be many more 'White British' janitors in Tesco's, fruit and veg pickers etc. They do the jobs that others won't/can't afford to do.

c) I personally have never had a problem finding a job. I was unemployed from November last year to January this, but December is traditionally a tight time jobwise. If I lived in an area where I couldn't get a job, I'd MOVE!! If I didn't have the skills, I would train! God knows there is enough funding for training (I know, my job involves finding it!) - my point is that there are hundreds of thousands of so called 'British' people who I would kick out of the country before our hard working immigrants.

d) I would defend the right of the BNP to exist, however they should not carry out illegal actions or hold illegal views. And whilst I defend people's rights to vote for them, I would still condemn them as uninformed/bigoted.

a) Creating jobs isn't really the hard part. Creating the economy to sustain those jobs is the trick. And while 2.3 million unemployed put further strain on an already reducing jobs market it gets increasingly hard to do that. Especially when so many long-standing companies have either closed, are under threat or are finding their profitability and their markets seriously threatened.

b) Contrary to previous claims an independent report I read the other day claimed that, overall, immigrants are worth less than 50p a head to our economy per year all factors considered. And that doesn't take account of such things as money being sent abroad under Muslim banking systems and not formally accounted. Whether immigrants do the jobs the indigenous population won't do or not, makes no excuse for having 2.3 million doing nothing in he meantime.

c) You are not only just about the perfect employable age but your training stands you in good stead for all sorts of work in modern society. Whether you would find retraining and job-hunting so easy at, say 55, assuming you weren't retired and enjoyiung your pension, I don't know but there are many who don't.

d) The BNP will doubtless evolve like every other party and wisely so I would hope) but, for now, the Labour Party, together with their unofficial helpers and various newspapers and news organisations, choose to largely ignore BNP policies except where the racial or criminal elements are concerned (as if they have any right to be smug on either count).

For instance only yesterday I read a newspaper reference to the criminal convictions of BNP members with no reference at all to the considerable number of main party members or former members who have convictions for a wide range of crimes - and more, surely, when and if the fraud charges are brought against various politicians over their expenses.

Some of those Labour or ex-Labour members' crimes make pretty sordid reading.

What I say is in no way meant to defend the BNP but when the nation is greeted every day with claims that politics will be cleaned up, there really seems no end to political spin and attempted deceipt. Hypocrisy can be deafening.

[Thracian]

Exception for racist views?

But you and others totally ignore Labour racism because Labour have made their racism legal.

[Guest]

Contrary to previous claims an independent report I read the other day claimed that, overall, immigrants are worth less than 50p a head to our economy per year all factors considered.

It wasn't a MigrationwatchUK report, by any chance?

[Finnegan]

But you and others totally ignore Labour racism because Labour have made their racism legal.

Dylan Moran did a skit that absolutely perfectly sums up Thracian and Lisa:

Starting about 1:30.

[Guest]

[Thracian]

a) So four years ago, more kids were dropping out of uni. And when these kids drop out of university, what kind of jobs are they looking for? I'll give you a clue; it's not the kind of work that employers are having to use migrant workers for.

b) The unemployment figures will include those who have no intention of looking for work. This report indicates that there are vacancies available. It also states that 25% are still on jobseekers after 6 months, so where are the other 75%?

One other thing worth noting is the new immigration policy; we have a points based system now. This will limit the numbers of non-EU migrant workers coming to the UK. It has been suggested that the Labour government has introduced this in response to public opinion and concerns over immigration. This is something that I have mentioned on numerous occasions, as have other posters. I don't know how many more times I need to post it before you understand I am not ignoring the point you refer to.

c) No discrimination is fair, but the one example you have given concerns an organisation that is seen to be racist, and is having difficulty in recruiting from ethnic, as well as other, minority groups. Representation of these groups, as already stated, is disproportionate to the nation, let alone the community it purports to support. As I asked in my last post, how exactly should this discrepancy be rectified?

a) But their dropping out hardly illustrates a competitiveness and determination to see things through to a successful conclusion. Immigrants seem to be looking for all kinds of work. Are you saying the indigenous population wouldn't work as teachers, bus drivers, health service workers and so on?

b) From what I can gather there are all sorts of variables relating to employment figures but nothing I've heard or seen suggests there are realitic jobs available to many of the people who are looking for work. Enlighten me if you wish by all means but I think the immigrant 25-year-old finds it easier to get a job than the indigenous 55-year-old.

c) Just because I only mentioned one example doesn't mean positive discrimination isn't rampant. It is.

I came across this random comment:

10% of social housing in the UK has been left to one side for immigration. There is one million less social houses in the UK now than there was twenty years ago, and over one hundred thousand people deamed homeless in the UK.

And then this (on Politic.co.uk) dated April 2006:

Dear reader,

London's marxist mayor, Ken Livingston seeks to down grade the quality of the world renowned London cabbie by making it easier for non whites to pass the rigourous examination process known as The Knowledge. Various forms of financial funding are in the pipeline such as school fees, free motorbikes and running costs etc will be dolled out with the usual gusto to anyone who isnt White/British.

Trust me when I say I have researched this subject for some time as rumours of it have circulated for the last 12 months and it now appears to be nearing fruition.

This is a concern close to myself as I am currently approaching the end (I hope) of my time on the Knowledge and can confirm it is by far the most difficult task I have ever attempted.

Please do not misunderstand me, I do not have a problem with any person of any race studying the knowledge and becoming a cabbie but making it easier for some will only water down the calibre of the said cabbie.

I have been studying the 'K' for over 2 years now averaging 70 hours a week on my studies to crack this nut in the fastest time I can. The drop out rate for K students is 80%, due to the difficultness of the task and the interferance it can cause with family or social life and can take students 6 or 7 years to complete part time.

This is why the end product, the cabbie, is one who has really earned his salt, is an extremely skilled worker who takes pride in what he has achieved and his job also. People coming in fast tracked the easy way wont have these same feelings for the job and no longer will the world cab trade look at London as the pinnacle of expertise.

I would have thought this is something to hold onto. Positive discrimination only causes friction in society against the people it is supposed to benefit. Especially as it always seems to go one way. To my knowledge there are no schemes trying to intice white British people into becoming traffic wardens!

If you agree with me please sign the petition through the link below. Please note you will be sent an email which needs replying to for your signiture to count. Thank you for your time( taken from a local cabbies website and forum)

Petition to: stop the postive discrimination against knowledge students.

__________________

In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act - George Orwell

As for Labour's new immigration policy I am simply not convinced it will ever be applied effectively. Labour have made so many promises about immigation controls and about their intention to deport various people who are still here that I just don't believe they will ever deliver. There is even talk about amnesty's for illegals. How does the one idea equate with the other. Did a judge not remark recently that he was sick of seeing people he thought he'd "deported" walking past him in the street?.

There is no need to "rectify" anything. People should simply be treated on merit as you indicated that they were 15 years ago. Can you not see that it is the very fact that some people are treated more equally than others that is fanning the growth of parties like the BNP?

If this government had not accommodated and effectively encouraged the great wave of immigrant arrivals to this country there would have been no great changes of population to make special rules for.

Immigration should have been left as a natural process but with the number of arrivals firmly and properly controlled. Even now we are seen as an easy touch for welfare and the fact that so much social housing is reserved for immigrants only emphasises that.

I never did get that list from Ultra showing the ethnic distribution of social housing in Leicester.

Were our country's welfare provisions not so attractive to immigrants (and everyone else) the endless pressure on our services would ease. And more of the 2.3 million unemployed would have to do the menial tasks you suggest are beneath them because otherwise they wouldn't eat and their kids would be taken into care. Great effort should be made to de-stigmatise menial working. To me it is just as valuable as any other work.

[Thracian]

It's very hard to discuss immigration without knee jerk accusations of racism. From what I've read of Thracian's posts I haven't seen anywhere where he's said that immigrants are in any way inferior.Being sceptical about the economic benefits of immigration doesn't necessarily make you a racist.

Just to confirm what you say that I don't think immigrants are "inferior" in any way. Quite the contrary in many ways such as the fitness, speed and strength of so many Africans and Afro-Americans or the language skills of so many Asians and mainland Europeans to give but two examples.

Personally I love the diversity of culture we have in Britain and find it no problem getting on with most people whatever their faith or background.

But none of that detracts from the fundamental responsibility of our Governement to fist look after the interests and welfare of our own indigenous population whether they be good, bad or indifferent.

Anything else by way of social service to the rest of the world's people should be by way of a bonus - generous in the good times and more restrained in times times of hardship.

Hopefully I've long been consistent in this view.

[purpleronnie]

You do understand if all immigrants went home the economy would collaspe as well as the NHS. Most industry leaders actually suggest we need more immigration not less but what do they know eh?

Its all a moot point anyway the BNP will never hold any substantial power to put any of their policies into place.

Thankfully despite the odd moronic vote most british voters are far too intelligent to vote for them.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

Were our country's welfare provisions not so attractive to immigrants (and everyone else) the endless pressure on our services would ease. And more of the 2.3 million unemployed would have to do the menial tasks you suggest are beneath them because otherwise they wouldn't eat and their kids would be taken into care. Great effort should be made to de-stigmatise menial working. To me it is just as valuable as any other work.

And how on earth do you propose to tackle that? That is an ingrained social and cultural view, and I have no idea how you would attempt to change it. You've made a lot of noise in this thread, backed up by some poor evidence of mostly people with similar views to your self writing unsubstatiated letters claiming they are well researched! You have asked a lot of questions, but given no solutions, by any chance are you a big fan David Cameron, as thats all he seems to do, point fault and then asked for his position run away.

That post by Finnegan is so apt.

[Thracian]

Dylan Moran did a skit that absolutely perfectly sums up Thracian and Lisa:

Starting about 1:30.

If I ever get sound back on this thing I'll listen to that. Not that I can imagine it will be in any way complimentary!

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

Just to confirm what you say that I don't think immigrants are "inferior" in any way. Quite the contrary in many ways such as the fitness, speed and strength of so many Africans and Afro-Americans or the language skills of so many Asians and mainland Europeans to give but two examples.

Personally I love the diversity of culture we have in Britain and find it no problem getting on with most people whatever their faith or background.

But none of that detracts from the fundamental responsibility of our Governement to fist look after the interests and welfare of our own indigenous population whether they be good, bad or indifferent.

Anything else by way of social service to the rest of the world's people should be by way of a bonus - generous in the good times and more restrained in times times of hardship.

Hopefully I've long been consistent in this view.

It's our governments responsibility to look after the country not our race, Are you therefore suggesting that we should not have people of Ethnic backgrounds in parliament as they are not part of our indigenous populationand the primary aim of the government is to look after white British people? I certainly don't agree with that.