Nigel Farage

[Strokes]

Not all on benefits are i agree. I deal with many people on the poverty line fighting every day to better themselves.

But there are alot of people on benefits long term that go through motions. If somebody really wants a job they can go out and get one! Jobs are there! But people don't want to try, its too much effort or beleive the jobs they could get are below them. I started out as a cleaner and worked my way up. Im proud of that but many would never even consider doing the job i did!

I agree and applaud, I also spent the last 18 months working in warehouses after my business collapsed. During that time I would have been better off on benifits, this is my problem with the system. I doubt I would have got the job I got a few months ago if I had chosen benifits. Do migrant workers have to give 5 years checkable working history and are crb checks as vigorant and effective?

[RobHawk]

I agree and applaud, I also spent the last 18 months working in warehouses after my business collapsed. During that time I would have been better off on benifits, this is my problem with the system. I doubt I would have got the job I got a few months ago if I had chosen benifits. Do migrant workers have to give 5 years checkable working history and are crb checks as vigorant and effective?

 

 I applaud you also - I did alot of warehouse work in my teens. I agree, the benefits system needs changing! But UKIP aren't talking about that are they! IMO it is scaremongering and pandering to a large proportion of the general public who want somebody to blame other than themselves! "I can't be bothered but its EU migrants fault for taking all the jobs" Its bullshit!

[purpleronnie]

The people who are affected by these things are swayed by it.

We aren't all buying Savile Row suits Ronnie, some people at the lower end are really struggling due to the freedom of movement policy.

Easy to pass it off as scaremongering if you're rich or in a professional middle class position and oblivious to that.

That's not entirely true matt, I know of middle class people wealthier than I that are voting UKIP, you think that middle classes aren't voting ukip?.  I maybe classed as middle class now but it wasn't that long ago I was a postman and earning pretty much minimum wage my views then are the same as now.

 

It is scaremongering because that's exactly what it's doing, the intention is to scare people, do you really think that every vacancy is being battled out between brit's and every european in the EU?  Of course not but that's what the poster implies.

[Strokes]

I applaud you also - I did alot of warehouse work in my teens. I agree, the benefits system needs changing! But UKIP aren't talking about that are they! IMO it is scaremongering and pandering to a large proportion of the general public who want somebody to blame other than themselves! "I can't be bothered but its EU migrants fault for taking all the jobs" Its bullshit!

Its not their fault directly, that isn't the point, its the fact they can and it is driving down wages. Benifits are slightly too much and skilled jobs are vastly underpaid. For the amount we overspend on benifits and the amount we give to the EU to subsidise smaller and failing nation, we could educate and improve this tiny island to its full potential. How can we expect the welfare dependant to value themselves when we won't give them the chance or tools to do it?

[purpleronnie]

Its not their fault directly, that isn't the point, its the fact they can and it is driving down wages. Benifits are slightly too much and skilled jobs are vastly underpaid. For the amount we overspend on benifits and the amount we give to the EU to subsidise smaller and failing nation, we could educate and improve this tiny island to its full potential. How can we expect the welfare dependant to value themselves when we won't give them the chance or tools to do it?

There is evidence that immigration has pressured low paid workers wages but its certainly unclear that tightening immigration will actually increase the average wage.

[Strokes]

There is evidence that immigration has pressured low paid workers wages but its certainly unclear that tightening immigration will actually increase the average wage.

Its simple supply and demand logic really.

[purpleronnie]

Its simple supply and demand logic really.

Not really, it's a little more complex than that strokes,  “lump of labour†is a fallacy.  Immigration increases the size of the economy, thus creating more jobs.

[Strokes]

Not really, it's a little more complex than that strokes, “lump of labour†is a fallacy. Immigration increases the size of the economy, thus creating more jobs.

Would the economy not increase if someone on welfare took the job then?

[Alf Bentley]

 

circa 1983

 

Photoshopped, apparently. Shame, he'd have gone up in my estimation a bit if that really had been him!

 

Yes, UKIP do need to make their mind up whether all these millions of Bulgarians/Romanians are coming to sponge off the dole or to steal our jobs (or to rape our damsels and burn our hay-ricks).

 

There are serious issues to discuss re. immigration, but parties like UKIP cynically stirring up fear to attract votes isn't going to help matters.

 

Low-cost labour dragging down wages is much more of an issue than the idea that millions are coming to sign on the dole..... So why isn't UKIP pressing for more labour inspectors to force irresponsible employers to maintain decent employment standards? Why isn't this "patriotic" party naming and shaming employers who employ cheap foreign labour? Why isn't it encouraging people to join trade unions that will negotiate decent pay/conditions for all, Brits or foreign? Oh! I remember... it's because they're a party of the chauvinistic, deregulating, free-market far right that doesn't give a flying fvck about the lives of working people in this country!  They're just ideological free-marketeers who don't like foreigners much and want (preferably white English) businessmen to make more money shafting working people than they do with the hindrance of EU regulation.

 

I'd enjoy a pint (saloon bar only) with Farage much more than with the dull, nerdy Miliband, the vacillating, vacuous Clegg or the smarmy, cynical Cameron (characterless PR shysters, one and all), but wouldn't vote for Farage's menagerie of oddball reactionaries, scare-mongerers, chip-on-shoulder bigots and freaks in a month of Sundays!

[MooseBreath]

Not really, it's a little more complex than that strokes, “lump of labour†is a fallacy. Immigration increases the size of the economy, thus creating more jobs.

Like you say, there is credible evidence that immigration exerts serious negative pressure on the wages of the low paid. Clearly if immigration was removed, it would take the negative pressure with it.

I'm with you though in general. If UK natives haven't bothered to educate themselves and have no skills and end up having to live in these urban ghettos with all the 3rd world povvo immigrants then it's nobodies fault but their own. My wages are going up thanks to the availability of this cheap pool of labour and I'm able to live far enough away from the ghetto areas for it not to affect me, so why would I care? It's not like I'm some labour voter who pretends to care about the peasent classes or anything

[Strokes]

Photoshopped, apparently. Shame, he'd have gone up in my estimation a bit if that really had been him!

Yes, UKIP do need to make their mind up whether all these millions of Bulgarians/Romanians are coming to sponge off the dole or to steal our jobs (or to rape our damsels and burn our hay-ricks).

There are serious issues to discuss re. immigration, but parties like UKIP cynically stirring up fear to attract votes isn't going to help matters.

Low-cost labour dragging down wages is much more of an issue than the idea that millions are coming to sign on the dole..... So why isn't UKIP pressing for more labour inspectors to force irresponsible employers to maintain decent employment standards? Why isn't this "patriotic" party naming and shaming employers who employ cheap foreign labour? Why isn't it encouraging people to join trade unions that will negotiate decent pay/conditions for all, Brits or foreign? Oh! I remember... it's because they're a party of the chauvinistic, deregulating, free-market far right that doesn't give a flying fvck about the lives of working people in this country! They're just ideological free-marketeers who don't like foreigners much and want (preferably white English) businessmen to make more money shafting working people than they do with the hindrance of EU regulation.

I'd enjoy a pint (saloon bar only) with Farage much more than with the dull, nerdy Miliband, the vacillating, vacuous Clegg or the smarmy, cynical Cameron (characterless PR shysters, one and all), but wouldn't vote for Farage's menagerie of oddball reactionaries, scare-mongerers, chip-on-shoulder bigots and freaks in a month of Sundays!

But if it wasn't for Ukip there would be no debate on Europe or immigration.

[Alf Bentley]

But if it wasn't for Ukip there would be no debate on Europe or immigration.

 

Well, there's certainly been a debate about both Europe and immigration (and rightly so) for the past 40 years (can't remember further back than that).

 

During most of that time, UKIP didn't even exist....which strongly suggests that they're taking advantage of longstanding concerns. Nothing wrong with that, unless it's done irresponsibly to stir up fear, mistrust and racial hatred - and there's certainly a case to say that's just what they're doing.

 

You've got a point in that the main parties avoid the issues more than they should because (a) they are all ultimately in favour of staying in the EU and know they have little control over EU migration; (b) either they are enthusiastically pro-EU (Lib Dems) or have internal divisions about the EU (Tories, Lab to a lesser extent) and want to avoid potentially damaging splits. The Tories are becoming increasingly Eurosceptic, but if they called for an EU exit, they'd be signing their own electoral death warrant, for now at least - so they want to display a "tough on Europe, tough on immigration" veneer to win votes while doing next to nothing.

 

Also, some people get very irate about Europe and immigration, but the vast majority decide their votes on other issues: traditional loyalties, the economy, employment/pay/living standards, public services for them, their children/parents, credible leadership etc.

 

William Hague & Michael Howard ran very Eurosceptic, anti-immigration election campaigns in 2001 & 2005 against an incumbent Labour government....and Labour won large majorities both times!

 

I'd fully expect UKIP to top the Euro elections on a low turnout as many people don't care or understand what the EU is all about and will stay at home, skewing the poll in favour of those who do have strong views and will turn out to vote. Farage might just have a high enough profile to win a Westminster seat next year, but more than 1 UKIP seat in the general election would be a major surprise, I reckon.

 

So what will UKIP achieve? A few MEPs flouncing around Brussels with zero influence, then a media circus back home that falls flat in 2015?

 

Perhaps they should all join the Tory Party and destroy it from within like Militant did to Labour in the 80s?

[Strokes]

Well, there's certainly been a debate about both Europe and immigration (and rightly so) for the past 40 years (can't remember further back than that).

During most of that time, UKIP didn't even exist....which strongly suggests that they're taking advantage of longstanding concerns. Nothing wrong with that, unless it's done irresponsibly to stir up fear, mistrust and racial hatred - and there's certainly a case to say that's just what they're doing.

You've got a point in that the main parties avoid the issues more than they should because (a) they are all ultimately in favour of staying in the EU and know they have little control over EU migration; (b) either they are enthusiastically pro-EU (Lib Dems) or have internal divisions about the EU (Tories, Lab to a lesser extent) and want to avoid potentially damaging splits. The Tories are becoming increasingly Eurosceptic, but if they called for an EU exit, they'd be signing their own electoral death warrant, for now at least - so they want to display a "tough on Europe, tough on immigration" veneer to win votes while doing next to nothing.

Also, some people get very irate about Europe and immigration, but the vast majority decide their votes on other issues: traditional loyalties, the economy, employment/pay/living standards, public services for them, their children/parents, credible leadership etc.

William Hague & Michael Howard ran very Eurosceptic, anti-immigration election campaigns in 2001 & 2005 against an incumbent Labour government....and Labour won large majorities both times!

I'd fully expect UKIP to top the Euro elections on a low turnout as many people don't care or understand what the EU is all about and will stay at home, skewing the poll in favour of those who do have strong views and will turn out to vote. Farage might just have a high enough profile to win a Westminster seat next year, but more than 1 UKIP seat in the general election would be a major surprise, I reckon.

So what will UKIP achieve? A few MEPs flouncing around Brussels with zero influence, then a media circus back home that falls flat in 2015?

Perhaps they should all join the Tory Party and destroy it from within like Militant did to Labour in the 80s?

UKIP will (and already have) indirectly achieve a change in policy/stance from all three major parties on the EU and our right to have a say on the future of it. So influence can still be had without seats.

[purpleronnie]

Can I just add this for mattp as for some reason what he said has irked me, yes I have saville row suits but the first suit was purchased when I was a postman and I worked bloody hard for it and didn't go on holiday or have a car or piss my money away all for the sole purpose of getting the suit, not sure why i have to justify that but I felt it was a cheap shot and I expected more from an intelligent bloke.

[Guest Col city fan]

I've always been a little naive when it comes to politics, if truth be told. Unlike some on here that seem to have a real grasp of it (MattP, 'Finners' for example), I'm really no expert.

One thing, however, that I've usually thought about Farage (when I've heard him on Question Time etc) is that he seems to just say it how it is. He doesn't appear to bull-shit particularly. And usually, I find myself agreeing when I'm listening to him.

[bovril]

I see him as a kind of right-wing Russell Brand. Makes some points that are difficult to disagree with but doesn't really offer any concrete solutions. Rambles on about Eastern Europeans in the same way Brand takes vague pot-shots at the 'Man' whoever that is. And they are both complete attention whores with legions of simpering fans.

[Strokes]

I see him as a kind of right-wing Russell Brand. Makes some points that are difficult to disagree with but doesn't really offer any concrete solutions. Rambles on about Eastern Europeans in the same way Brand takes vague pot-shots at the 'Man' whoever that is. And they are both complete attention whores with legions of simpering fans.

Leaving the EU is about as concrete as you can get regarding immigration, we can then control our borders.

[bovril]

Leaving the EU is about as concrete as you can get regarding immigration, we can then control our borders.

 

It's not really concrete because they're implying in the posters that the EU is responsible for unemployment and low wages but they're not telling us how they'll go about tackling these things.

[Strokes]

It's not really concrete because they're implying in the posters that the EU is responsible for unemployment and low wages but they're not telling us how they'll go about tackling these things.

The poster isn't detailed enough? I'm not sure you get the idea of them then. If you speak to a representative of Ukip or watch any of their speeches or conferences, you will get the detail. Its there if you look for it.

[bovril]

The poster isn't detailed enough? I'm not sure you get the idea of them then. If you speak to a representative of Ukip or watch any of their speeches or conferences, you will get the detail. Its there if you look for it.

 

Oh no I get the idea of them....

[Thracian]

Well,  I shall vote UKIP. I'm sick of the calculated, systematic degrading of the indigenous working population - and that includes a whole stack of immigrants who are as fed-up with finding themselves on the employment scrapheap as the broadly white English population that were here before they arrived.

 

Admission to the UK should be a privilege not a right and the bar should be set at such a level as our nation might likely benefit from those coming in rather than being taken advantage of. We have enough of the latter among our existing population.    

[Strokes]

Oh no I get the idea of them....

Sure you do, you claim them to be scaremongering but fail to acknowledge any of the facts within. You try to smear by claiming they have no substance but you haven't even looked. They aren't xenophobic, I am sure they have members and supporters that are but the policies and belief are not.

Which party doesn't have rogues or bad eggs?

[Buce]

Which party doesn't have rogues or bad eggs?

The Greens?

[Strokes]

The Greens?

Pah, chequered pasts.

[bovril]

Sure you do, you claim them to be scaremongering but fail to acknowledge any of the facts within. You try to smear by claiming they have no substance but you haven't even looked. They aren't xenophobic, I am sure they have members and supporters that are but the policies and belief are not.

Which party doesn't have rogues or bad eggs?

 

Sure, and I haven't said their policies are xenophobic or 'smeared' them at all - in fact like I said I'm not a fan of the visa free movement. The facts behind the poster campaign are worth acknowledging but when I look at them I just see a big fvcking finger and a vaguely threatening message and the facts get lost.