Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi

[davieG]

BBC

Britain is under threat from a rising tide of "militant secularisation", a cabinet minister has warned.

Religion is being "sidelined, marginalised and downgraded in the public sphere", Conservative co-chairwoman Baroness Warsi wrote in an article for the Daily Telegraph.

The Muslim peer said Europe needed to become "more confident and more comfortable in its Christianity".

She will also highlight the issue in a speech at the Vatican on Wednesday.

"I will be arguing that to create a more just society, people need to feel stronger in their religious identities and more confident in their creeds," she wrote in the Telegraph.

"In practice this means individuals not diluting their faiths and nations not denying their religious heritages."

Baroness Warsi, who is Britain's first female Muslim cabinet minister, went on to write: "You cannot and should not extract these Christian foundations from the evolution of our nations any more than you can or should erase the spires from our landscapes."

'Totalitarian regimes'

She wrote that examples of a "militant secularisation" taking hold of society could be seen in a number of things - "when signs of religion cannot be displayed or worn in government buildings; when states won't fund faith schools; and where religion is sidelined, marginalised and downgraded in the public sphere".

She also compared the intolerance of religion with totalitarian regimes, which she said were "denying people the right to a religious identity because they were frightened of the concept of multiple identities".

Her comments come days after the High Court ruled that a Devon town council had acted unlawfully by allowing prayers to be said at meetings.

And, as BBC religious affairs correspondent Robert Pigott reports, the Church of England could soon lose its traditional role as the provider of the chief chaplain to the Prison Service.

The Ministry of Justice has confirmed it is "considering arrangements" for appointing a new Chaplain-General - but the job might not go to an Anglican.

Our correspondent says the move may be seen by some Anglicans as the latest sign of the reduced influence of the "established" Church of England in public affairs.

'Outdated and divisive'

On Baroness Warsi's article and speech, BBC political correspondent Louise Stewart said it was not the first time a senior Conservative had called for a revival of traditional Christian values.

"Last December, Prime Minister David Cameron said the UK was a Christian country and 'should not be afraid to say so'," she said.

The British Humanist Association (BHA) described Baroness Warsi's comments as "outdated, unwarranted and divisive".

"In an increasingly non-religious and, at the same time, diverse society, we need policies that will emphasise what we have in common as citizens rather than what divides us," said BHA chief executive Andrew Copson.

Baroness Warsi's two-day delegation of seven British ministers to the Holy See will include an audience with Pope Benedict XVI, who visited the UK in 2010.

This visit marks the 30th anniversary of the re-establishment of full diplomatic ties between Britain and the Vatican.

Meanwhile, new research suggests Britons who declare themselves Christian display low levels of belief and practice.

Almost three quarters of the 1,136 people polled by Ipsos Mori agreed that religion should not influence public policy, and 92% agreed the law should apply to everyone equally, regardless of their personal beliefs.

It also found that 61% of Christians agreed homosexuals should have the same legal rights in all aspects of their lives as heterosexuals.

And a further 62% were in favour of a woman's right to have an abortion within the legal time limit.

The survey was conducted for the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science (UK), which describes itself as promoting "scientific education, rationalism and humanism".

[Jon the Hat]

What a load of shit. Some Christians are clearly good people, and some are not. That has little or nothing to do with their religion. Everyone should read "God is not great" by the late and great Christopher Hitchens.

[Captain...]

Her comments come days after the High Court ruled that a Devon town council had acted unlawfully by allowing prayers to be said at meetings.

And, as BBC religious affairs correspondent Robert Pigott reports, the Church of England could soon lose its traditional role as the provider of the chief chaplain to the Prison Service.

Well that is a load of bollox to start with, they, ruled that it was unlawful to make prayers said at meetings mandatory.

Britain is becoming less and less christian as most people now, even those who categorise themselves as christian, the majority don't hold strong christian beliefs, as evidenced by Richard Dawkins survey.

Britain is changing and we need to reflect that, christianity is a part of this country's past and is becoming less and less relevant every year.

Also from the article:

"I will be arguing that to create a more just society, people need to feel stronger in their religious identities and more confident in their creeds," she wrote in the Telegraph."

That is just plain bollox too, religions have been responsible for most of the recent atrocities in this world, to create a more just society people need to take responsibility for themselves to judge what is right and wrong and not rely on outdated/fabricated texts written thousands of years ago and interpretted and translated hundreds of times and easily twisted to fit the views of the reader/listener to be their moral compass.

Religion is dying because of 2 things:

1. Science is able to provide more answers

2. It is no longer relevant to the modern world

[leicsmac]

When atheists and secularists

are flying airplanes into things, blowing themselves up, shooting doctors, bombing hospitals, smashing graveyards, or forming militias, then we'll come back and talk about them being 'militant'.

The separation of church and state should be absolute, and remain so.

[z-layrex]

Man invented God in his own image, intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent.

Belief in a Christian/Muslim/whatever God is moronic and frankly falls under clinical insanity in my eyes. We should be downplaying religion in the modern age not encouraging it.

[Rincewind]

Agree completely. There are some very good ttweeters that are debunking fundalmentalists on twitter. There are still quite a few that believe the earth is 6000 years old. One msgd 'I dont know how you can live without god. ' I replied Easy. With no invisible friend I do not have to ask permission first to be good or praise a god before I am.'

As I said in one tweet. Scientists have to rely on evidence to prove their findings creationists simply say 'God did it'

[leicsmac]

Oh, and as no one has done it yet...the typical introduction to any religion thread...

[leicsmac]

One man's personal belief doesn't bother me at all...freedom of belief and to practise religion is fundamental. What bothers me is when religion gets organised, and takes on a political agenda.

[RumbleFox]

Love a bit o' this! Ya cannae beat a wee debate about Religion.

I always like to imagine it thus:

If an Alien arrived on Earth knowing nothing of the Human Race and it's history and observed a debate between someone who is religious and someone who is not there is absolutely no way that the alien would side with the religios person. To someone "outside" of the argument listening in there really would be no argument at all just one person presenting reasoned, evidenced beliefs based on observed facts and one person rambling on about a magical bearded man in the sky who created everything. We only even tolerate the arguements FOR religion because we are brought up to respect it. If you heard what religious people actually believe for the first time as an adult instead of hearing about it from birth you would simply laugh.

Rumble.

X

[MikeyT]

Man invented God in his own image, intolerant, sexist, homphobic and violent.

Belief in a Christian/Muslim/whatever God is moronic and frankly falls under clinical insanity in my eyes. We should be downplaying religion in the modern age not encouraging it.

I like this post.

[Captain...]

Love a bit o' this! Ya cannae beat a wee debate about Religion.

I always like to imagine it thus:

If an Alien arrived on Earth knowing nothing of the Human Race and it's history and observed a debate between someone who is religious and someone who is not there is absolutely no way that the alien would side with the religios person. To someone "outside" of the argument listening in there really would be no argument at all just one person presenting reasoned, evidenced beliefs based on observed facts and one person rambling on about a magical bearded man in the sky who created everything. We only even tolerate the arguements FOR religion because we are brought up to respect it. If you heard what religious people actually believe for the first time as an adult instead of hearing about it from birth you would simply laugh.

Rumble.

X

Firstly and most importantly in a debate about religion, not all dieties have beards! (but it helps)

Secondly if an alien came down from the sky and started listening to our problems he would be hailed as the next prophet (if he had a beard) or he would be shot, or both, can't beat killing a prophet to make a religion swell.

We will soon all be worshipping the cult of Kudos and Kang.

On a more serious note, can anyone think of any aliens in popular culture that had beards, non-humanoid aliens obviously, Brian Blessed as a Hawk Man in Flash Gordon doesn't count.

[z-layrex]

Firstly and most importantly in a debate about religion, not all dieties have beards! (but it helps)

Secondly if an alien came down from the sky and started listening to our problems he would be hailed as the next prophet (if he had a beard) or he would be shot, or both, can't beat killing a prophet to make a religion swell.

We will soon all be worshipping the cult of Kudos and Kang.

On a more serious note, can anyone think of any aliens in popular culture that had beards, non-humanoid aliens obviously, Brian Blessed as a Hawk Man in Flash Gordon doesn't count.

I suppose Vulcans, Klingons and Bajorans would come under humanoid...

Changelings! In their natural state they're a liquid state but could form into a shape that has a beard.

Or the Xindi-Arboreal:

Should probably watch less star trek...

[Captain...]

I suppose Vulcans, Klingons and Bajorans would come under humanoid...

Changelings! In their natural state they're a liquid state but could form into a shape that has a beard.

I have no idea what a bajoran is,

Changelings don't count, I am trying to find an alien created by someone that had a beard, and not played by an actor with a beard, of all the aliens in Star Wars did any have a beard?

The closest I can find on Google is this:

And that doesn't count

[Jon the Hat]

Sometimes I love general chat. Like when the sensible people come and tell it like it is. And the bearded aliens obviously.

[Guest Bilo]

When atheists and secularists

are flying airplanes into things, blowing themselves up, shooting doctors, bombing hospitals, smashing graveyards, or forming militias, then we'll come back and talk about them being 'militant'.

The separation of church and state should be absolute, and remain so.

Underrated post.

Spot on.

[Zingari]

People making rules and laws up and telling us all how we should live our lives because their invisible friends have told them so have had it their own way for far too long now.

It’s time to let those with immense influence in the banking, industrial and military tell us how to live.

We’re just swapping one set of gods for another.

[Captain...]

People making rules and laws up and telling us all how we should live our lives because their invisible friends have told them so have had it their own way for far too long now.

It’s time to let those with immense influence in the banking, industrial and military tell us how to live.

We’re just swapping one set of gods for another.

We are still waiting for the one to bring balance to this world,

As much as I find the concept of religion risable, I do feel that most religious organisations do tend to act for good, (yes even Muslims) and have and do and will continue to do good things. The problem with Religion, like politics and drugs is in its abuse, and unfortunately religious followers tend to be easily swayed by religious leaders and we have our hands tied some what in questioning them.

Politicians are at least held accountable for their mistakes (to some extent although we still seem to move from one bunch of corrupt ****wits to another), and we have methods of removing them from power and their actions are held up to scrutiny by the press (again another wonderful institution ruined by corruption and greed).

Ultimately everything we do and have in this world can be a force for good, for enlightenment and for happiness, but we just won't let them. The problem is not Atheism vs Religion, Politicians vs Anarchists, Capitalism vs Socialism, it is just human nature.

[Guest Bilo]

[Finnegan]

ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!

[Captain...]

ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!

I can see he has also touched you with his noodley appendage,

I used to worship the FSM until science proved that some of the claims made by the church of the FSM can't possible be true.

[Stadt]

_{It makes me laugh how much hatred is aimed at muslims and a lot of pople wouldn't be able to define a muslim.}

_{Sikh's must get a lot of shit just because they were turbans and have beards.}

[Reynard Bleu]

When atheists and secularists

are flying airplanes into things, blowing themselves up, shooting doctors, bombing hospitals, smashing graveyards, or forming militias, then we'll come back and talk about them being 'militant'.

The separation of church and state should be absolute, and remain so.

Like the House of Lords?

[I am Rod Hull]

Like the House of Lords?

Or NATO...

[Rincewind]

Isaiah 13:16

Viewing the 1769 King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Isaiah 13:16

Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

Why I am anti-religion

[Zingari]

The “ravishing wives” bit sounds ok

my missus is not above a bit of ravishing after a few glasses of tiger milk