Armed Forces Day

[Guest]

Whilst over in England I saw lots of ads for "Armed Forces Day" and a puking bucket full "armed forces sentiment" only outdone by the idioticness of English/British flags draped on thousands (nay millions) of houses and cars. followed a close third by the sickening build-up to the London Olympics.

I'll leave those two for a future post maybe but today I'd like to invite discussion on the Armed Forces sentiment issue.

I've never been a great supporter of the Armed Forces. I realise that a certain amount of security is needed but England, maybe pining for it's old world conquering commonwealth days, has far too large an armed forces for the country it is today in the world of today. It also spends an inordinate amount of money on Arms and the Forces which could be better used in many other areas. Sure that would mean a lot of arms linked job losses but the money could easily be placed in areas of better job creation.

People who join the armed forces are mostly (I said mostly) guys whose job prospects are not that good. they get good training in certain areas, they get paid well and they get good health and pension out of it. In peace time their job is a complete joke and their workload is negligible. In war time they MAY have to put their lives on the line more than once - this was in the job description when they signed up.

Leaving aside the facts that Britian should never have become involved in Afghanistan or Iraq or most other areas they find themselves putting their noses into. I don't understand the "public" reaction to soldiers dieing. That's a consequence of war. These people joined up knowing that they would probably have to kill people and that they would be in some nasty situations where they could be killed or mentally affected.

If we don't want soldiers to die then don't build an army and send them to war zones.

And most of all stop having special parades and collections for them - do you do the same for teachers waging a constant battle against ignorance, street cleaners fighting a never ending war on litter, tax collectors attacking the mountainous evaders?

If we have to have so many Armed Forces personnel, if we have to fight in areas that are none of our business then accept that their will be fatalities (but less than due to alcohol abuse or bad driving) and accept it's just people doing a job that they know the consequences of very well for a wage (and workload) that many would happily take home.

Why is England presently under seige from the "Lady Di Effect" concerning the Armed Forces?

Let the discussion begin.

[21st Century Fox]

I cringe every time I hear that god awful radio ad where the guy says "I'll be supporting Armed Forces Day because they protect our way of life".

WWI, WWII, remember them on Remembrance Day, totally agree. Remember those that have died in other conflicts by all means but today it's a job.

I don't mean to generalise the role of the armed forces in the modern age, I'm aware of their relevance to a certain extent but lets not sugar coat it, it's basically a political arm now (and has been on and off for centuries).

[Trav Le Bleu]

This is not unique to England (or indeed, even Britain.) In America tomorrow will be the biggest self-love-in on the planet, which will feature parades etc. France has Bastille Day with military pomp. By comparison Bonfire Night is a bit of a damp squib - so much so that if said date falls midweek it gets celebrated at the weekend, which is not something that would happen to Independence or Bastille Day.

Let's look around the world recently...

Russia.

India

Australia

Azerbaijan

So it's not perculiar to th UK. Yes the world would be better without armed forces of any kind, but singling out the UK as being more war-loving than other countries - no. But there has been an increase in patriotism I believe, but again, not just here, worldwide, which is why you see countries dividing (we might soon) and becoming more insular. Personally I go with Samuel Johnson in saying that, "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

[I am Rod Hull]

Germany Chile

[davieG]

Wot u on abowt - we need all the arms we can get!

London 2012: Olympic missiles sites confirmed

Ground-based air defence systems will be sited at six locations in and around London during the Olympic Games, despite opposition from residents.

The missiles - including rapier and high-velocity systems - will be in place from mid-July, the MoD confirmed.

Plans also include the use of helicopter carrier HMS Ocean, which will be moored in the River Thames.

RAF Typhoon jets will be stationed at RAF Northolt, and Puma helicopters at a Territorial Army centre in Ilford.

'Small number of activists'

Defence Secretary Philip Hammond said the ground-based air defence systems were "just one part of a comprehensive, multi-layered air security plan" which would provide "both reassurance and a powerful deterrent".

They would go ahead despite objections from a "small number of activists," he said.

"We have undertaken a wide programme of engagement with the communities affected, involving relevant local authorities, landowners, MPs, council leaders, and community meetings.

"These have shown that, while people understandably have questions and concerns which we have sought to answer, broadly speaking communities are supportive of our work."

Some 100 sites were considered as locations for ground missiles, before this was narrowed down to the six final sites which were deemed to offer the best possible protection to the Olympic Park and surrounding area against any air threat.

The sites, and the specific systems to be deployed at them, are:

• Lexington Building, Fairfield Road, Bow, Tower Hamlets - high-velocity missile
  

• Fred Wigg Tower, Montague Road Estate, Waltham Forest - high-velocity missile
  

• Blackheath Common, Blackheath (Lewisham/Greenwich) - rapier
  

• William Girling Reservoir, Lea Valley Reservoir Chain, Enfield - rapier
  

• Oxleas Meadow, Shooters Hill, Greenwich/Woolwich - rapier
  

• Barn Hill, Netherhouse Farm, Epping Forest - rapier
  

The plans have sparked a campaign by residents, who say 1,000 people have signed a petition in protest.

Residents of Fred Wigg Tower have also launched legal proceedings against the missiles' siting.

Solicitors instructed by the residents' association said their challenge is set to reach the High Court on 9 July.

Responding to the MoD's confirmation of the plans Chris Nineham, 49, from Bow, who is part of the Stop the Olympic Missiles campaign said: "This is a decision that flies in the face of good sense and also the opinions and feeling of the people who live in the area."

"Sitting missiles on housing estates makes people feel a lot less secure."

[James.]

Those missiles on Fairfield Road are about a mile away from where I live. Am I supposed to feel safer in that knowledge?

I really don't understand how they can be used in such a heavily populated area as Tower Hamlets. Are you really going to shoot down a helicopter or a aircraft over one of the most populous places in the country?!

Going off the Olmypics pretty fast. These missiles, the diverted funding going away from key projects in the city, corporate overkill, etc etc. All a bit shit really. At least there's beach volleyball.

[I am Rod Hull]

Those missiles on Fairfield Road are about a mile away from where I live. Am I supposed to feel safer in that knowledge?

I really don't understand how they can be used in such a heavily populated area as Tower Hamlets. Are you really going to shoot down a helicopter or a aircraft over one of the most populous places in the country?!

Going off the Olmypics pretty fast. These missiles, the diverted funding going away from key projects in the city, corporate overkill, etc etc. All a bit shit really. At least there's beach volleyball.

Those missiles are aimed at the Argentinian hockey team apartments.

[21st Century Fox]

If you're feeling unsafe, just get into the Olympic Village, it'll be the safest place in London. Just hang around the gates and some helpful Americans will give you a bunk up over the gate.

[Daggers]

Be afraid, plebs - be afraid. Look over there, there are soldiers who fight for you, who keep you safe from the foreign barbarians. Be afraid of those barbarians, plebs. They hate you.

Be afraid, plebs - Johnny Foreigner wants to change your way of life. They hate your life. These soldiers, they die for you. They die for you so that you can shop, little scared plebs. Don't let the foreigners know you are scared, little plebs. Carry on, keep calm, consume. Flood the shops, little terrified plebs, flood the shops with money.

The soldiers will help you, little plebs. You are right to be afraid but they will stand between you and those who want to take away your rights. Use your right to vote, little plebs. The brave soldiers die so that you can vote, little plebs. They die so that you can vote for us, we who support the soldiers. We will ensure there will always be soldiers so that you can vote and shop, shop and vote, little plebs. It's your duty to support the soldiers by shopping and voting and not questioning what you are told. The nasty foreigners want you to question everything, they want you to hate the soldiers as they hate the soldiers. Don't hate the soldiers, little plebs, support them - support them, support the country, support your MPs and your Queen.

They die for you, little plebs. They die so that you may consume. Be patriotic plebs, shop for England.

[Nick]

Stu?

[Reynard Bleu]

Not much to discuss. You have an opinion about the British Armed Forces that is based on little (if any) factual knowledge, but rather its based on your prejudices and ignorance.

Have your opinion, no matter how ill-informed. As for a discussion? No thanks.

[Daggers]

Not much to discuss. You have an opinion about the British Armed Forces that is based on little (if any) factual knowledge, but rather its based on your prejudices and ignorance.

Have your opinion, no matter how ill-informed. As for a discussion? No thanks.

His question regards the current phenomena of deifying soldiers and the unquestioning support for them. What factual knowledge do you have of that that is in any way superior to anyone elses?

I would say that going by your reply you have demonstrated the most closed-mind response so far in this thread.

[Guest]

Not much to discuss. You have an opinion about the British Armed Forces that is based on little (if any) factual knowledge, but rather its based on your prejudices and ignorance.

Have your opinion, no matter how ill-informed. As for a discussion? No thanks.

I don't think you really understood what I was saying but no matter.

An ill-informed opinion is better than no opinion at all.

An ill-informed opinion can become a better informed opinion if discussion ensues.

thanks for your help Reynard.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Recently in South Wigston they had a parade from the TA Centre on Tigers Road down through the town centre, and it was called the Freedom of Access Parade.

Ironicly, all the roads were closed off for a few hours.

[Daggers]

Freedom of Access? To what? The right to march about a bit?

[Trav Le Bleu]

Freedom of Access? To what? The right to march about a bit?

Certainly not South Wigston.

[Guest MattP]

I didn't even notice we had one, I was in Atlanta a couple months back and the whole airport was dedicated to returning troops. Bizarre stuff.

No problem with a day for the troops, don't agree with the war that they are in but unfortunately a solider can't refuse the orders given, they are just fodder for the government to use how they please. Only know a couple of lads out in Hellmand now and they are both good guys, both have no idea what they are fighting for though.

Hopefully the Argie'c can invade the Falklands shortly and give us an excuse for a quick withdrawal.

[Webbo]

It was very low key. I wouldn't even have known about it if it hadn't been mentioned on the news. I don't know where all these thousands (nay millions) of flags were, I hardly saw any and those would have been left overs from the football.

If people want to cheer on the troops or ride their motorbikes through Wooton Bassett then good luck to them but it's not something I'm interested in.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Hopefully the Argie'c can invade the Falklands shortly and give us an excuse for a quick withdrawal.

On which note I found this vid when looking for my earlier videos. It's kind of disturbing.

Seems a fair few Argentinians still want that bit of rock and think that it would be worth going to war over.

[Guest]

unfortunately a solider can't refuse the orders given,

Well of course not. That's part of the job description. If they're not happy with taking orders or killing people or being killed, they don't have to take the job.

Not sure why they deserve a "day" anymore than anyone else.

Let them try doing a 9 to 5 job every day for a year and look after the offspring that they happily have knowing that they are going away for weeks at a time, maybe killed or return with mental problems.

Should soldiers be neutered upon joining the army?

(sits back and waits for this to be assassinated whilst my other remarks are ignored).

[Captain...]

I don't think you really understood what I was saying but no matter.

An ill-informed opinion is better than no opinion at all.

An ill-informed opinion can become a better informed opinion if discussion ensues.

thanks for your help Reynard.

I am pretty sure that Reynard is a serving or ex-soldier, so I would say he probably has a more valid opinion on this than you.

I don't have a hard on for war, I find it appalling and tragic and often unnecessary, but it is not the soldiers that decide where they invade and when, for that I will always respect the armed forces and loathe those that misuse them.

I don't necessarily agree with armed forces day, I don't think it is necessary and probably a bit crass considering what has happened in the last few years, but not as crass as your original post.

[Guest MattP]

Well of course not. That's part of the job description. If they're not happy with taking orders or killing people or being killed, they don't have to take the job.

Not sure why they deserve a "day" anymore than anyone else.

Let them try doing a 9 to 5 job every day for a year and look after the offspring that they happily have knowing that they are going away for weeks at a time, maybe killed or return with mental problems.

Should soldiers be neutered upon joining the army?

(sits back and waits for this to be assassinated whilst my other remarks are ignored

I think for a long of young men the option of joining the services was probably the only one available that would give them a sense of belonging, discipline and a career path for life. These aren't guys coming out of Oxford with Economics degrees volunteering to put their life on the line.

If people want a day to show some respect to them I really don't see the problem.

[Jon the Hat]

We do seem to have suddenly decided a bunch of not very qualified squaddies who signed up in full knowledge of the job they were expected to do gonig to war, doing that job and coming home again is something to celebrate. Strange.

Fair enough it is sad if someone loses a life in the process, but they are not kids, they know the job and the risks, and they accept them.

[ADK]

Hasn't this always been the case?

[I am Rod Hull]

I cant see what the problem is.

We seem to be more proud of the gay pride march through London, than we are with our armed forces....