Animal rights

[Charl91]

I don't go on your duck thread and call you a retard.

You should just stay away from each other and stop peking at each others threads.

Edited 9 August 2012 by Charl91

[The Doctor]

I already said what the 'things in meat' were on my previous sentence; iron/protein etc.

And what's wrong with referring to the 'Walking with...' documentaries? The ones that consult scientists to make it as realistic as it possible with current knowledge.

Why don't you leave your hatred of me out of this unrelated discussion? I don't go on your duck thread and call you a retard.

Except that the walking with... documentaries were about as useful for reliable insights as you would be for running the borders - i.e. crap.

[Daggers]

I already said what the 'things in meat' were on my previous sentence; iron/protein etc.

And what's wrong with referring to the 'Walking with...' documentaries? The ones that consult scientists to make it as realistic as it possible with current knowledge.

Why don't you leave your hatred of me out of this unrelated discussion? I don't go on your duck thread and call you a retard.

If you post something which makes you look like a spanner, so big it could be used above a tool-hire shop, then I'm going to pull you up on it. The reason you feel it happens a lot is because most of your posts are spectacularly stupid.

I don't hate you, I hate people like you posting as though being retarded has become a viable lifestyle choice. In days gone by you would have been destroyed by a wolf while trying to get into your Midvale Cave For The Gifted. In a sense, this is an overpowering argument to release all wild animals in captivity into the local communities.

[Charl91]

If you post something which makes you look like a spanner, so big it could be used above a tool-hire shop, then I'm going to pull you up on it. The reason you feel it happens a lot is because most of your posts are spectacularly stupid.

I don't hate you, I hate people like you posting as though being retarded has become a viable lifestyle choice. In days gone by you would have been destroyed by a wolf while trying to get into your Midvale Cave For The Gifted. In a sense, this is an overpowering argument to release all wild animals in captivity into the local communities.

I disagree with lots of the things Acooling writes. However, I don't think there was anything particularly wrong with what he posted in this instance, especially not to tool-shop-advertisment proportions. Seems like a bit of an over-reaction to me....

Edited 9 August 2012 by Charl91

[ozleicester]

Maybe the simple answer as to why we don't human meat is either emotional attachment to a fellow human and/or fear of reprisal from other humans if you eat their offspring

Every animal is fiercely protective of it's own which shows some sore of survival/emotional drive to protect and nurture it's own kind at the expense of others.

We may have evolved to attain reason and morality , but we still retain our base instincts that are more hardwired than recent changes.

I'm not sure if you consider this as an answer , but it's all i've really got .

i totally accept all the arguments about ill treatment of animals , and very strict laws should be in place to ensure a good environment etc ,

Interesting answer, and probably accurate, Whilst i dont place animals on an even pedestal with humans... i dont see an enormous gulf, we are both sentient and emotional animals.

In the end, the reason its pigs not babies is i assume, because we are mostly selfish buggers who want to continue living our lives they way we always have...even if it means making others suffer. Again i refer back to Slavery, in its day it was the accepted norm and the selfish fought tooth and nail to maintain there "right" to slaves.

Moosey seems a very good poster to me and has the ability to stimulate debates and expand the boundaries , I think sometimes he rises to baiting too easily though rather than just ignoring it .

I havent read a lot of what he writes as it seems deliberately inflammatory and trolling..but the brief read of his input to this topic prior to its removal by mods, has just reinforced that he is more than just a troll. It appears to me he has some mental issues and probably should spend more time dealing with them rather than posting here.

A baby has the potential to exceed the intelligence of a pig so I would go for a pig (and regularly do).

Fair point... although does that mean that a baby with a limited future is on the menu?

I have one more for you though if you will, how do we protect our crops to feed a worldwide vegetarian population without the risk to insects, slugs etc?

Im assuming you mean protect them from being destroyed by insects?... insects exist and work by living off other insects as well, so an ecologically balanced society should be easily sustainable

I've already answered this, babies are much more time consuming to farm with longer gestation periods and require more time to develop, pigs have much shorter pregnancies and require much less work to bring them to maturity.

An 8 month old pig is already mature, or ripe as I like to call it, whereas an 8 month old baby isn't, so you should compare an 8 month old pig with say an 16 year old child (all figures used are illustrative and not necessarily factually accurate). Then it is very expensive to raise a child to maturity

.

You have said this.. but it doesnt explain why you will eat a pig and not a baby, and to be fair, im pretty sure if we went down the baby farming route... we could be pumping the mums and babies full of similar drugs and hormones to bring that gestation time and growth rate to a much more manageable time

In terms of taste, I don't know but, pig is one of the tastiest of animals.

i remember the flavour of Bacon and pork.. and i agree... it just becomes less tasty when you recognise the suffering and the fact that it once lived and loved.

Then there is the evolutionary argument, by eating your young you are not passing on your seed, which is a base instinct for all animals, although some do still eat their young, normally out of desperation (I hope). It would also be a complete waste of energy in terms of delivering a baby, only to eat, it is easier to hunt an animal and eat that.

The evolutionary argument doesnt stand up... put half the "ladies" of Coventry or Notts into a baby farm (lets face it, the Mail tells me they are already doing it) and get them pumping out the chubby little sandwich fillings. No need to worry about your seed or future little you's.. just fresh succulent flesh for all

The only argument in favour of eating babies is that it will probably save a lot of money to eat your baby than put it through university.

Think of the saving there too... instead of chicken or prawn flavoured pot noodles.. you can have baby flavoured

Your argument that a pig feels more pain than a baby, just means we should eat pigs before they are fully developed, all animals will feel some form of pain, and defining your eating habits by which animal suffered the least physical pain in being killed is nonsense, I'm not going to eat a slug because it feels less pain than a cow, it is about how tasty/nutritious it is. Sorry, but that is how us barbaric meat eaters view things.

No.. my argument actually suggests that we should just not eat animals... far easier.

As for defining by who suffered least.. yep thats exactly my argument, you might THINK its about how nutritious it is... but im afraid you have been brainwashed and led astray, an abundance of colours, additives, msg, salt etc etc have all been added to your food and years of gullible gobbling has seen you and your brain BELIEVE it is what tastes good, but you can actually stop and think for yourself and change that if you wish.

If we gave pigs the choice between living in safe captivity and then dying without feeling pain, or living in the wild and probably being mauled to death by a deer, or more likely not existing altogether, which would they choose?

See... now someone else said you werent necessarily a bad poster, but this comment is stupid, and just more evidence that you are the same.

Also, I think my earlier post which got deleted contained the ultimate truth of vegetarianism - that in seeking to prevent pain inflicted on animals, vegetarians are indirectly hoping to prevent pain being inflicted on themselves because they are cowards.

I dont know exactly why your post was deleted... im guessing because it was incredibly stupid and more than likely offensive. I certainly am trying to avoid having pain and death perpetrated on defenceless animals, and in all fairness i dont go out looking to suffer pain myself. (although i do sometimes engage in discussion with complete morons, which does cause suffering and pain for me)

I recommend you make your way up to the next police officer you see and encourage him or her to hit you about the head a few times.. and perhaps bang you with a couple of tasers then, if you can post the video of it here, just so i can watch and be impressed by how much of a man you are.

Edited 10 August 2012 by ozleicester

[marty78]

A baby has the potential to exceed the intelligence of a pig so I would go for a pig (and regularly do).

Fair point... although does that mean that a baby with a limited future is on the menu?

How would you decide what a limited future for a Human baby is? I would have to allow that baby its life to know its potential.

I have one more for you though if you will, how do we protect our crops to feed a worldwide vegetarian population without the risk to insects, slugs etc?

Im assuming you mean protect them from being destroyed by insects?... insects exist and work by living off other insects as well, so an ecologically balanced society should be easily sustainable

So do we ask the insects etc to not eat the crops or kill them using insecticides?

If animals are to be considered as equal to Humans then surely we shouldn't keep pets or farm (working) animals as I wouldn't take forceful ownership of Humans.

What about mosquito's, should we stop persecuting them and allow them to spread Malaria throughout populations?

What about things like head lice or bed bugs do we have right to exterminate these given they are equal to Humans?

What about rats that bring disease, should they be allowed to roam free among our communities?

[Charl91]

I don't think we should stop eating meat, and I think it's unrealistic for vegans to expect everyone to stop eating meat altogether. What animal rights protestors should be fighting for is for the animals that are eaten to be treated more humanely in both their living conditions and their slaughter.

No matter what vegans say, eating meat is natural and shouldn't be anything to be ashamed of. Battery farm conditions is a different matter however.

[Darkon84]

I don't think we should stop eating meat, and I think it's unrealistic for vegans to expect everyone to stop eating meat altogether. What animal rights protestors should be fighting for is for the animals that are eaten to be treated more humanely in both their living conditions and their slaughter.

No matter what vegans say, eating meat is natural and shouldn't be anything to be ashamed of. Battery farm conditions is a different matter however.

This.

I dont understand why people have to go on such crusades and try to convert people so badly. Its as bad as forcing religion on someone.

My uncle is a vegan, and is happy with it. I respect his decision and I respect anyone else that wants to make their own lifestyle choice, for whatever reason. The thing is, he doesnt go shoving it down everyones throat, or turning his nose up if you eat a steak next to him. nor does he make ridiculous statements and comparisons like eating babies instead of pigs. In fact I think he, and most other vegans would just shake their head and distance themselves from that.

Sorry for the rant, and no disrespect Ozleicester, and other veggies or vegans on here I whole heartedly agree that certain conditions of animal slaughter and rearing need to be addressed and sorted, I just feel that this whole line of discussion has probably run its course and will just go round and round until its beaten to dust.

Edited 10 August 2012 by Darkon84

[OzFox]

I don't think we should stop eating meat, and I think it's unrealistic for vegans to expect everyone to stop eating meat altogether. What animal rights protestors should be fighting for is for the animals that are eaten to be treated more humanely in both their living conditions and their slaughter.

No matter what vegans say, eating meat is natural and shouldn't be anything to be ashamed of. Battery farm conditions is a different matter however.

Many animal rights protestors do fight for exactly that. But you don't have to be a "protestor" to buy responsibly.

Personally I try and buy free range wherever possible. That's partly for ethical reasons, and partly because battery farmed meat is full of antibiotics, growth hormones and pesticides

[Zingari]

Many animal rights protestors do fight for exactly that. But you don't have to be a "protestor" to buy responsibly.

Personally I try and buy free range wherever possible. That's partly for ethical reasons, and partly because battery farmed meat is full of antibiotics, growth hormones and pesticides

Well i'm not 7 feet tall , nor been totally free from disease and i've had the ocassional infestation by crabs , so they ain't working very well !!

Edited 10 August 2012 by Zingari

[OzFox]

Well i'm not 7 feet tall , nor been totally free from disease and i've had the ocassional infestation by crabs , so they ain't working very well !!

Yeah but what about the breasts and the hair in unusual places?

[Zingari]

Yeah but what about the breasts and the hair in unusual places?

i try not to draw too much attention to that

[Charl91]

Many animal rights protestors do fight for exactly that. But you don't have to be a "protestor" to buy responsibly.

Personally I try and buy free range wherever possible. That's partly for ethical reasons, and partly because battery farmed meat is full of antibiotics, growth hormones and pesticides

I do the same - where I have the choice I buy free range, and that's entirely for ethical reasons (the growth hormones/pesticides doesn't particularly bother me). However trying to force being a vegan down peoples throats is just going to put people off and is counter-productive to the cause.

[Guest MattP]

Many animal rights protestors do fight for exactly that. But you don't have to be a "protestor" to buy responsibly.

Personally I try and buy free range wherever possible. That's partly for ethical reasons, and partly because battery farmed meat is full of antibiotics, growth hormones and pesticides

I also buy free range and care about the treatment of animals.

(except foxes, who deserve a slow and painful death)

[Captain...]

I also buy free range and care about the treatment of animals.

(except foxes, who deserve a slow and painful death)

You said what now!!!!

You realise you are on Foxestalk, this is a forum for lovers of foxes, how could you come on here and say that you troll!!!

Edit: It's a what now... a forum for football supporters? Shit, I would have thought a forum for football fans would have people who know about football posting on it though, not the barrage of clueless posters that inhabit the football forum.

Edited 10 August 2012 by Captain Shrapnel

[Guest MattP]

You said what now!!!!

You realise you are on Foxestalk, this is a forum for lovers of foxes, how could you come on here and say that you troll!!!

Edit: It's a what now... a forum for football supporters? Shit, I would have thought a forum for football fans would have people who know about football posting on it though, not the barrage of clueless posters that inhabit the football forum.

:trumpet: :trumpet:

Edited 10 August 2012 by MattP

[BoneDog]

can you post some pics of happy donkeys and sad donkeys so i can learn to tell the difference ?

The only sad ones I've seen are on those adverts. And the one AOWW posted

I'd still work my donkeys (if I had owt for them to do!) as that's what they're for really - helping us to get things done - but I'd give them a bit of fun time so they'd be happier.

[ozleicester]

How would you decide what a limited future for a Human baby is? I would have to allow that baby its life to know its potential.

well i think there are a number of tests that tell us that some... actually...look im not going down this path any further as it just gets unpleasant.

So do we ask the insects etc to not eat the crops or kill them using insecticides?

If animals are to be considered as equal to Humans then surely we shouldn't keep pets or farm (working) animals as I wouldn't take forceful ownership of Humans.

What about mosquito's, should we stop persecuting them and allow them to spread Malaria throughout populations?

What about things like head lice or bed bugs do we have right to exterminate these given they are equal to Humans?

What about rats that bring disease, should they be allowed to roam free among our communities?

I have always said that we all have the right to self protection... it is the killing of animals for pleasure (and thats what eating them is) that im am opposed to.

I don't think we should stop eating meat, and I think it's unrealistic for vegans to expect everyone to stop eating meat altogether. What animal rights protestors should be fighting for is for the animals that are eaten to be treated more humanely in both their living conditions and their slaughter.

You are entitled to your opinion, but dont tell me what i should be fighting for... the fact is, no matter how good their life is...if we are slaughtering them.. that is inhumane!!

No matter what vegans say, eating meat is natural and shouldn't be anything to be ashamed of. Battery farm conditions is a different matter however.

No, it is not natural...and even if it was... evolution now determines that it is wrong

This.

I dont understand why people have to go on such crusades and try to convert people so badly. Its as bad as forcing religion on someone.

My uncle is a vegan, and is happy with it. I respect his decision and I respect anyone else that wants to make their own lifestyle choice, for whatever reason. The thing is, he doesnt go shoving it down everyones throat, or turning his nose up if you eat a steak next to him. nor does he make ridiculous statements and comparisons like eating babies instead of pigs. In fact I think he, and most other vegans would just shake their head and distance themselves from that.

You do realise that you entered a topic entitled ANIMAL RIGHTS, i specifically started this topic so as not to post in other topics about this... If you dont want to get burned.. dont stick your head in the fire.

The eating of babies draws a parallel, if you are incapable of understanding what is being discussed, either get someone to explain it... or let it go.

Sorry for the rant, and no disrespect Ozleicester, and other veggies or vegans on here I whole heartedly agree that certain conditions of animal slaughter and rearing need to be addressed and sorted, I just feel that this whole line of discussion has probably run its course and will just go round and round until its beaten to dust.

Your welcome to your opinion... and theres no need for you to waste your time in the thread.... as long as we are slaughtering animals for our pleasure... i will state my oposition to it, animals have a right to life and they are incapable of definding themselves, so i will do what i can.

i try not to draw too much attention to that

awww, its precisely that which i liked most about you

I do the same - where I have the choice I buy free range, and that's entirely for ethical reasons (the growth hormones/pesticides doesn't particularly bother me). However trying to force being a vegan down peoples throats is just going to put people off and is counter-productive to the cause.

Check the topic title... if you are offended by what ive said, perhaps you need to look inside yourself at what upsets you. You CANNOT KILL for pleasure ethically!!

I also buy free range and care about the treatment of animals.

So does careing for the treatment of animals mean that killing them needlessly is is caring?

(except foxes, who deserve a slow and painful death)

[BoneDog]

Have you read this book ozleicester?

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7950451-vegetarianism-and-occultism - http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarianism-Occultism-Charles-Webster-Leadbeater/dp/1564594904

I've not read it all but I did once read a part of it somewhere. It has some well known medical folk talking about how humans can actually be physically stronger by not eating meat. I tried to find the link with that part of the book but canna find it at the mo.

I'm a meat eater but what I read from this book did make me think about changing my diet.

[ozleicester]

Have you read this book ozleicester?

http://www.goodreads...m-and-occultism - http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/1564594904

I've not read it all but I did once read a part of it somewhere. It has some well known medical folk talking about how humans can actually be physically stronger by not eating meat. I tried to find the link with that part of the book but canna find it at the mo.

I'm a meat eater but what I read from this book did make me think about changing my diet.

Cheers Empty, not seen it. To be honest anything that touches on the occult i tend to be a little suspicious of.

[BoneDog]

Cheers Empty, not seen it. To be honest anything that touches on the occult i tend to be a little suspicious of.

Yes I know what you mean and I thought it was a strange title for a book! I know nothing about the occult or what it's all about but the section that I saw regarding the human body and meat eating was very interesting. It has some doctors talking about the optimal diet in order to bring about the fittest and strongest possible human body and they all said that meat was not a part of that diet.

I'll try again to find the quotes.

[Zingari]

Cheers Empty, not seen it. To be honest anything that touches on the occult i tend to be a little suspicious of.

Don't you consider that goat sacrifices may be an effective way of warding off evil spirits ?

[FoxyPV]

Oz - stop prosyletising. If people are going to stop eating meat, they'll do it in their own time and, I know from experience, that being militant about it will just make people ignore your message.

[Zingari]

Oz - stop prosyletising. If people are going to stop eating meat, they'll do it in their own time and, I know from experience, that being militant about it will just make people ignore your message.

I agree , but when someone is as passionate about a subject as oz obviously is, then it’s very difficult not to want to change things and change them fast. He probably won’t change anyone’s opinions in the short term at least , but it may plant a few seeds ( no pun intended)into a few minds regarding conversion to total vegetarianism .

He seems to be enjoying trying in a sort of evangelistic way and it’s an interesting debate , so there’s no real harm done.

He may have little success with the posters that he's debating with , but some of the posters that are just reading the thread may be more open to his message .

And at least it's more civilised that the dead baby joke thread

Edited 11 August 2012 by Zingari

[Charl91]

Stuff

The fact that you are trying to claim that eating meat is unnatural shows me that you're not willing to have a sensible discussion about this. Eating meat is one of the most natural things their is. I'll come up with a list of animals that eat other animals, and you come up with a list of animals who abstain from eating other animals on ethical grounds, and we'll see who wins.

If you fought for a realistic alternative then it might be possible to make important steps to change one day, changes that will actually benefit animals, but the radical stance that you take means that you will never make any changes. You might not like killing animals, but it's one thing that is never going to change.

I'm all for animals rights, but I have realistic expectations.

Edited 11 August 2012 by Charl91