Animal rights

[ozleicester]

Oz - stop prosyletising. If people are going to stop eating meat, they'll do it in their own time and, I know from experience, that being militant about it will just make people ignore your message.

I guess we can all be grateful you werent around during the fight for freeing the slaves ..or votes for women... "aahh just let it go.. theyll get freedom/rights... all in good time".

You, can choose to ignore the fact that you kill animals for your pleasure..it doesnt change that you do it.

The fact that you are trying to claim that eating meat is unnatural shows me that you're not willing to have a sensible discussion about this. Eating meat is one of the most natural things their is. I'll come up with a list of animals that eat other animals, and you come up with a list of animals who abstain from eating other animals on ethical grounds, and we'll see who wins.

If you fought for a realistic alternative then it might be possible to make important steps to change one day, changes that will actually benefit animals, but the radical stance that you take means that you will never make any changes. You might not like killing animals, but it's one thing that is never going to change.

I'm all for animals rights, but I have realistic expectations.

sigh.. have you read any of this thread.. or just wandered in and stated you blinkered views, i have addressed the "naturalness" of eating meat.. it isnt! and even if it was, we dont need to and evolution tells us we shouldnt.

"never going to change" On average we eat 30+ animals a year... if one person stops.. it will make a difference to that 30 animals... again people such as you wouldve been fantastic when freeing the slaves was being discussed.

Your all for animal rights.. as long as you are allowed to keep killing them for your pleasure.

Evolution.... which so many people fall back on when saying why its ok... means that we develop as a better society, stopping eating animals is a natural part of evolution. It is a slow process.. but it is progress. For example.. in the last census some countries have seen 20% increases in the number of vegetarians.

You are entitled to your opinion.. and currently you have the right to eat animals. or course in the US up until 1865 you had the right to keep slaves. Time changes, the world recognises what is wrong, unfair or cruel,and it changes.

its a little bit simple etc.... but ....

http://dreamemporium.com/starfish.html

[Jaspa]

sigh.. have you read any of this thread.. or just wandered in and stated you blinkered views, i have addressed the "naturalness" of eating meat.. it isnt! and even if it was, we dont need to and evolution tells us we shouldnt.

Well we've come a long way since we were chucking Mammoths off cliffs, eating meat is about as natural as it gets and we have canine teeth for eating meat and a system that can proccess most easily and make the most of its nutrition.

"never going to change" On average we eat 30+ animals a year... if one person stops.. it will make a difference to that 30 animals... again people such as you wouldve been fantastic when freeing the slaves was being discussed.

The animals have already been killed, if you dont eat meat for a year, you have saved exactly 0 animals, unless you killed it in your own means

Your all for animal rights.. as long as you are allowed to keep killing them for your pleasure.

You make out that we are all in it for the kill, that we are sick twisted people who like nothing more than hurting animals and enjoying every moment of it.

There is nothing wrong with us, we get hungry

Evolution.... which so many people fall back on when saying why its ok... means that we develop as a better society, stopping eating animals is a natural part of evolution. It is a slow process.. but it is progress. For example.. in the last census some countries have seen 20% increases in the number of vegetarians.

That doesnt make any sence

Because a country has an increasing number of vegetarians doesnt mean they are evolving quicker, there could be millions of other factors, such as yourself

'stopping eating animals is a natural part of evolution'- What an earth are you on about ? Gazelles are more evolved than Cheetahs, Tuna than Shark ??

You are entitled to your opinion.. and currently you have the right to eat animals. or course in the US up until 1865 you had the right to keep slaves. Time changes, the world recognises what is wrong, unfair or cruel,and it changes.

Im not going to stop it changing if they find real solutions to the deficiencies vegans suffer from, and an actual quality food product to replace it.

Not any lab engineered slime, valued on nutrition at extortionate prices

I would love that to happen

But we clearly have bigger problems to deal with now on the Earth, if people like you spent your energies elsewhere instead of worrying about the fine details you might actually improve things

[Captain...]

I guess we can all be grateful you werent around during the fight for freeing the slaves ..or votes for women... "aahh just let it go.. theyll get freedom/rights... all in good time".

You, can choose to ignore the fact that you kill animals for your pleasure..it doesnt change that you do it.

sigh.. have you read any of this thread.. or just wandered in and stated you blinkered views, i have addressed the "naturalness" of eating meat.. it isnt! and even if it was, we dont need to and evolution tells us we shouldnt.

"never going to change" On average we eat 30+ animals a year... if one person stops.. it will make a difference to that 30 animals... again people such as you wouldve been fantastic when freeing the slaves was being discussed.

Your all for animal rights.. as long as you are allowed to keep killing them for your pleasure.

Evolution.... which so many people fall back on when saying why its ok... means that we develop as a better society, stopping eating animals is a natural part of evolution. It is a slow process.. but it is progress. For example.. in the last census some countries have seen 20% increases in the number of vegetarians.

You are entitled to your opinion.. and currently you have the right to eat animals. or course in the US up until 1865 you had the right to keep slaves. Time changes, the world recognises what is wrong, unfair or cruel,and it changes.

its a little bit simple etc.... but ....

http://dreamemporium.com/starfish.html

I'm sorry Oz, but you cannot use the evolution argument, we have not evolved in any way to be vegetarians, if we had we would be able to get nutrition from more plants and more efficiently, but genetically we are not changing so we are not evolviing.

What you mean is that progress,has made it possible, with freezers and fridges and advancement in trasport means we can store fruit and vegetables for longer and not be reliant on the seasons.

You can also argue that logically it is better to eat veggies than animals because it is a more direct source of nutrition, you can argue morally that it is right, but evolution is not on your side, we did not evolve to have fridges

Evolution is not your ally in this if we stop being able to process meat, lose our meat tearing teeth and become able to digest grass, then that is evolutionary change.

As it is youu just have, science, logic and morality on your side

[marty78]

I guess we can all be grateful you werent around during the fight for freeing the slaves ..or votes for women... "aahh just let it go.. theyll get freedom/rights... all in good time".

You, can choose to ignore the fact that you kill animals for your pleasure..it doesnt change that you do it.

sigh.. have you read any of this thread.. or just wandered in and stated you blinkered views, i have addressed the "naturalness" of eating meat.. it isnt! and even if it was, we dont need to and evolution tells us we shouldnt.

"never going to change" On average we eat 30+ animals a year... if one person stops.. it will make a difference to that 30 animals... again people such as you wouldve been fantastic when freeing the slaves was being discussed.

Your all for animal rights.. as long as you are allowed to keep killing them for your pleasure.

Evolution.... which so many people fall back on when saying why its ok... means that we develop as a better society, stopping eating animals is a natural part of evolution. It is a slow process.. but it is progress. For example.. in the last census some countries have seen 20% increases in the number of vegetarians.

You are entitled to your opinion.. and currently you have the right to eat animals. or course in the US up until 1865 you had the right to keep slaves. Time changes, the world recognises what is wrong, unfair or cruel,and it changes.

its a little bit simple etc.... but ....

http://dreamemporium.com/starfish.html

My biggest problem with your argument is your insistence on equating animals with Humans when it is quite clear they are not equal. There is the difference between animal rights and Human slavery. It is a shock tactic but actually weakens your argument rather than strengthen it because people will not take such comments seriously.

Clearly you live by a moral code which puts animals on a pedestal with Humanity but I am afraid you are very much in a minority but claim that everyone else's behavior is unnatural and against evolution.

Another strange idea is the one that meat eaters cannot care about animals rights. This again seems to be based on your personal moral code which you use to judge others actions.

Without knowing the reason for existence how can you know your moral code is the right one?

[marty78]

I ask because as far as I am aware Homo Sapiens have always eaten meat. We have found evidence that our ancestors ate meat up to 2.5m years ago at least and modern humans can only really be said to have become modern (anatomically) 250,000 years ago and behaviorally it is more like 50,000 years.

Chimpanzees, with which we share a common ancestor, are intriguing because we are so closely related and Chimps hunt in groups and eat meat despite not being anymore carnivorous than humans. In fact Chimps do not need meat and hunt (in dense forest areas with a plethora of fruits and berries) for social reasons rather than nutritional benefits. I mention Chimps because you said it was okay for carnivores to eat meat on the basis of survival but Chimps eat meat for reasons other than survival. So if Humans became vegetarian should we force Chimps to do the same by controlling their environment?

Oz, can I ask for thoughts on this earlier post?

[ozleicester]

Well we've come a long way since we were chucking Mammoths off cliffs, eating meat is about as natural as it gets and we have canine teeth for eating meat and a system that can proccess most easily and make the most of its nutrition.

No, its not natural, its something we started doing and we no longer need to continue doing, there are people who kill other people, its natural.. but wrong.

The animals have already been killed, if you dont eat meat for a year, you have saved exactly 0 animals, unless you killed it in your own means

Do you think that meat producers kill the same amount of animals every year?, how absurd.. they measure how many are needed and grow and then slaughter that amount, i have stated time and again in this thread, this is not a short term concept.

You make out that we are all in it for the kill, that we are sick twisted people who like nothing more than hurting animals and enjoying every moment of it.

That is not my intention... i simply state the fact that you are having animals killed for your pleasure.. thats a fact, face it

There is nothing wrong with us, we get hungry

But you dont need to kill to fulfill your needs, you choose to

That doesnt make any sence

Because a country has an increasing number of vegetarians doesnt mean they are evolving quicker, there could be millions of other factors, such as yourself

I didnt mean that they were evolving quicker, i was repsonding to the fact that someone had said that it wont change... this was evidence that it is ALREADY changing.

'stopping eating animals is a natural part of evolution'- What an earth are you on about ? Gazelles are more evolved than Cheetahs, Tuna than Shark ??

Do you place your intellectual abilities on a par with Gazelles or Tuna? Evolution (as i stated) is about becoming a better society, a better society recognises that killing is unnecessary for humans and changes

Im not going to stop it changing if they find real solutions to the deficiencies vegans suffer from, and an actual quality food product to replace it.

Vegans who eat properly do not suffer from deficiencies... and id suggest you look at the health of the typical meat eater and im confident they are suffering from much less healthy eating habits.

Not any lab engineered slime, valued on nutrition at extortionate prices

I would love that to happen

its been done.. but you have to chose to see it and change your life

But we clearly have bigger problems to deal with now on the Earth, if people like you spent your energies elsewhere instead of worrying about the fine details you might actually improve things

in your opinion... and how do you know where i spend my energies?

this is all just you justifying you decision to kill for pleasure

[Jaspa]

Cba with this, gonna have a carvery later

[ozleicester]

I'm sorry Oz, but you cannot use the evolution argument, we have not evolved in any way to be vegetarians, if we had we would be able to get nutrition from more plants and more efficiently, but genetically we are not changing so we are not evolviing.

we can... and do. But it takes people to decide to do it. we are able to get every need without killing, but we dont choose to do so.

What you mean is that progress,has made it possible, with freezers and fridges and advancement in trasport means we can store fruit and vegetables for longer and not be reliant on the seasons.

Dont you think that progress is a result of evolution?

You can also argue that logically it is better to eat veggies than animals because it is a more direct source of nutrition, you can argue morally that it is right, but evolution is not on your side, we did not evolve to have fridges

See above... i only refer to evolution, because that has been the catch cry of the meat eaters. whether we have physically evolved or not i dont really care, we dont need to kill, but we do. = wrong

Evolution is not your ally in this if we stop being able to process meat, lose our meat tearing teeth and become able to digest grass, then that is evolutionary change.

Stop eating meat... we will evolve out meat eating teeth.

As it is youu just have, science, logic and morality on your side

yes.. you would think thats enough wouldnt you.

[ozleicester]

marty78, on 08 August 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

I ask because as far as I am aware Homo Sapiens have always eaten meat. We have found evidence that our ancestors ate meat up to 2.5m years ago at least and modern humans can only really be said to have become modern (anatomically) 250,000 years ago and behaviorally it is more like 50,000 years.

Chimpanzees, with which we share a common ancestor, are intriguing because we are so closely related and Chimps hunt in groups and eat meat despite not being anymore carnivorous than humans. In fact Chimps do not need meat and hunt (in dense forest areas with a plethora of fruits and berries) for social reasons rather than nutritional benefits. I mention Chimps because you said it was okay for carnivores to eat meat on the basis of survival but Chimps eat meat for reasons other than survival. So if Humans became vegetarian should we force Chimps to do the same by controlling their environment?

Oz, can I ask for thoughts on this earlier post?

Oz, can I ask for thoughts on this earlier post?

Sorry Marty, missed this....

I guess my bottom line to it is, that we are an intelligent (mostly) race and we should recognise that what we are doing is cruel and unfair. what you have written is correct ( i think). but, we are more intellectually skilled than chimps (thats why we are allowed to kill them) so we need to do the right thing.

[ozleicester]

My biggest problem with your argument is your insistence on equating animals with Humans when it is quite clear they are not equal. There is the difference between animal rights and Human slavery. It is a shock tactic but actually weakens your argument rather than strengthen it because people will not take such comments seriously.

Actually, no, i have stated earlier in this discussion that i do not seem them as equal. Im not going for shock with the slavery, it is exactly how i see the situation. there is a large part of society that saw slavery as unfair and cruel...another part of society saw it as natural... this is exactly the same concept, but i think we are at the pointy end of it. Im sure that 50 years before the slaves were freed... the majority either supported slavery.. or did not really think about it. It takes time, but sooner or later people will realise that just because we can.. doesnt mean we should kill.

Clearly you live by a moral code which puts animals on a pedestal with Humanity but I am afraid you are very much in a minority but claim that everyone else's behavior is unnatural and against evolution.

Another strange idea is the one that meat eaters cannot care about animals rights. This again seems to be based on your personal moral code which you use to judge others actions.

I do not say that they cannot care about them... but you do have to recognise that at the end of all the "no battery hens, no pigs in cages, no feedlot cows". If you are going to eat them you have to kill them... and that is CRUEL!

Without knowing the reason for existence how can you know your moral code is the right one?

My only statement here is that killing for pleasure is wrong.. be that human or animal, that to me isnt a moral code.. its just right

[Charl91]

You're 100% wrong. I don't have enough words in my dictionary to adequately describe quite how wrong you are. Eating meat is natural. If we weren't supposed to then we wouldn't get nutrition from the stuff. It's natural by the bloody dictionary definition of the word. If anything, the conscious decisions to choose to avoid meat is unnatural - I can't think of any other race other then humanity which does this.

Adjective: Existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.

You're only "argument" (and I use the term loosely) is that we are "killing animals for our pleasure". No, we are killing animals to survive. Like it or not, that's how the world works and how it has always worked. Yes, we could possibly work around not eating other creatures, but humans are animals, so why should we feel any less guilty about eating a duck? The duck certainly doesn't feel guilty about eating fish. You might feel guilty about eating animals (but that's just a psychological problem that you're going to have to live with because it is perfectly natural. You can try and guilt trip as many people you like about it, but there is NOTHING that people should be ashamed of.

The animal rights issues I agree should be stopped are the unnecessary cruelty and treatment of animals during their life-time (living conditions, etc.), the UNNATURAL aspects. These are the animal rights issues which should be discussed and taken seriously, not ridiculous suggestions like "No1 shud ever eaat meeeet!!!!!"

Edit: Comparing slavery with eating animals is such a straw man argument. The two are not similar at all.

[Captain...]

But that's the thing we have not evolved to eat grass or hay or straw, we have not evolved extra digestive tracts to get the most out of difficult to break down plants, from an evolutionary stand point nothing has changed.

What are now able to do is think and process many pieces of information, weigh up the pros and cons of various lifestyle choices, such as veganism, vegetarianism etc, but there is no definitive answermost people agree we could do more to change the farming process, but we can also see the problems that would occur if we stopped eating meat all together, there would be a massive shortage on tofu for a start, it is all about balance and yes we have upset the ecological balance and it is not something we can change back easily, but going from one extreme to the other is not going to help things. I appreciate and respect your views on this, but I am going to continue eating ethically sourced and sustainable meat, partly because it is more convenient, psrtly through habit, partly through cost, but mainly because i really like the taste of it. I am not going to feel guilty about it either.

[ozleicester]

You're 100% wrong. I don't have enough words in my dictionary to adequately describe quite how wrong you are. Eating meat is natural. If we weren't supposed to then we wouldn't get nutrition from the stuff. It's natural by the bloody dictionary definition of the word. If anything, the conscious decisions to choose to avoid meat is unnatural - I can't think of any other race other then humanity which does this.

Adjective: Existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.

So obviously, killing another human is also natural? but, we recognise it is wrong. The same goes for animals, you just havent recognised that yet.

You're only "argument" (and I use the term loosely) is that we are "killing animals for our pleasure". No, we are killing animals to survive. Like it or not, that's how the world works and how it has always worked. Yes, we could possibly work around not eating other creatures, but humans are animals, so why should we feel any less guilty about eating a duck? The duck certainly doesn't feel guilty about eating fish. You might feel guilty about eating animals (but that's just a psychological problem that you're going to have to live with because it is perfectly natural. You can try and guilt trip as many people you like about it, but there is NOTHING that people should be ashamed of.

You do not NEED to eat animals, you enjoy it and so you do it, but it is not essential.

the duck is limited by its evolutionary skills, lack of opposable thumbs and inability to make fridges etc.

I do feel guilty about eating animals.. i feel a hypocrite for saying i care about animals.. and then killing them simply because i like the taste.

Face it.. you care less for the life of a chicken.. then you do for your own selfish want of a tasty dinner.

The animal rights issues I agree should be stopped are the unnecessary cruelty and treatment of animals during their life-time (living conditions, etc.), the UNNATURAL aspects. These are the animal rights issues which should be discussed and taken seriously, not ridiculous suggestions like "No1 shud ever eaat meeeet!!!!!"

If you are killing just so you can enjoy the taste then....Killing is unnecessarily cruel!!

Edit: Comparing slavery with eating animals is such a straw man argument. The two are not similar at all.

see previous statements (by the way, i dont think you understand the straw man theory)

[ozleicester]

But that's the thing we have not evolved to eat grass or hay or straw, we have not evolved extra digestive tracts to get the most out of difficult to break down plants, from an evolutionary stand point nothing has changed.

What are now able to do is think and process many pieces of information, weigh up the pros and cons of various lifestyle choices, such as veganism, vegetarianism etc, but there is no definitive answermost people agree we could do more to change the farming process, but we can also see the problems that would occur if we stopped eating meat all together, there would be a massive shortage on tofu for a start, it is all about balance and yes we have upset the ecological balance and it is not something we can change back easily, but going from one extreme to the other is not going to help things. I appreciate and respect your views on this, but I am going to continue eating ethically sourced and sustainable meat, partly because it is more convenient, psrtly through habit, partly through cost, but mainly because i really like the taste of it. I am not going to feel guilty about it either.

And that is your choice.

[marty78]

Actually, no, i have stated earlier in this discussion that i do not seem them as equal. Im not going for shock with the slavery, it is exactly how i see the situation. there is a large part of society that saw slavery as unfair and cruel...another part of society saw it as natural... this is exactly the same concept, but i think we are at the pointy end of it. Im sure that 50 years before the slaves were freed... the majority either supported slavery.. or did not really think about it. It takes time, but sooner or later people will realise that just because we can.. doesnt mean we should kill.

The difference is the slaves were equal but people failed to grasp that because they looked different. Animals are not equal so it does not equal the same thing at all. Also some people still think others races are lesser and some humans are still owned as slaves unfortunately. We also kill each other with alarming regularity.

I do not say that they cannot care about them... but you do have to recognise that at the end of all the "no battery hens, no pigs in cages, no feedlot cows". If you are going to eat them you have to kill them... and that is CRUEL!

But maybe these are the first baby steps towards your Utopia, surely you should be encouraging of this rather than dismissive. Do you believe that we can reverse millions of years of Human behaviour overnight?

My only statement here is that killing for pleasure is wrong.. be that human or animal, that to me isnt a moral code.. its just right

What makes that right? Something must make it right for it to be right otherwise it is just the opinion of an individual. I completely respect your opinion and your right to lead what is, to you at least, a nobler lifestyle but don't see why I should live by your standards . I follow laws under whose jurisdiction I live and also have opinions on what I feel is right or wrong and I don't see why I should value someone else's opinion above mine based on their ideals.

[Fox96]

where did all the vegetarian things come from... i'm not giving up meat

[MooseBreath]

If we gave pigs the choice between living in safe captivity and then dying without feeling pain' date=' or living in the wild and probably being mauled to death by a deer, or more likely not existing altogether, which would they choose?[/quote']

=flower boy]See... now someone else said you werent necessarily a bad poster, but this comment is stupid, and just more evidence that you are the same.[/b]

How is it stupid? You are trying to tell us all that the pig has feelings too and we should respect that, i'm pointing out that we offer pigs and other animals that we eat a much better life and death than they would get in the wild. You keep saying meateaters are "killing for pleasure", well you would evidently prefer animals to lives a much more difficult life and suffer a much more difficult death as long as it means you don't have to deal with the guilt of being responsible for their death. Different pleasures, same outcomes, only your animal suffers a much worse fate than mine. Which one of us is on the side of the animals again?

[Raw Dykes]

[AdamN]

Oz, what are your thoughts on keeping pets? Things like what pets are acceptable, how you treat them, how you feed them, etc, etc...

[Danno]

Animals are boring not arsed about them.

[FoxyPV]

I guess we can all be grateful you werent around during the fight for freeing the slaves ..or votes for women... "aahh just let it go.. theyll get freedom/rights... all in good time".

You, can choose to ignore the fact that you kill animals for your pleasure..it doesnt change that you do it.

Oz - just fvck off. Let's try and get our own species to try and treat each other with respect before we start into other species. I don't eat meat based on ethical beliefs but I'm not going to tell other people what to eat. All you can do is give them the information if they ask for it and then let them make up their own minds.

When dogs start discrimating against each other based on breed, give me a shout and I'll help you man the barricades against this abomination.

[ozleicester]

The difference is the slaves were equal but people failed to grasp that because they looked different. Animals are not equal so it does not equal the same thing at all. Also some people still think others races are lesser and some humans are still owned as slaves unfortunately. We also kill each other with alarming regularity.

Animals are not equal i have admitted this earlier, nevertheless they have a right to live. Just because we are the (assumed) most evolved life form this does not make it right for us to kill them.

We certainly do kill each other and i am even more opposed to that, but im pretty confident the majority of people are, so i havent bothered to open a topic for discussion about it. The killing of animals is accepted..even promoted as a good thing, which resulted in this topic.

But maybe these are the first baby steps towards your Utopia, surely you should be encouraging of this rather than dismissive. Do you believe that we can reverse millions of years of Human behaviour overnight?

Have you bothered to read ANY of the preceding pages, i stated on at least 3 occasions that it is a evolutionary/generational change.

What makes that right? Something must make it right for it to be right otherwise it is just the opinion of an individual. I completely respect your opinion and your right to lead what is, to you at least, a nobler lifestyle but don't see why I should live by your standards . I follow laws under whose jurisdiction I live and also have opinions on what I feel is right or wrong and I don't see why I should value someone else's opinion above mine based on their ideals.

What makes killing of other people wrong, you dont seem to see that as an opinion, you seem to accept it as fact.

So its just about the law?

Even given my disagreements with you.... I am sure that you are capable of deciding wrong from right based on your own intellect...rather than accepting what you are told?

Battery farming is legal - but it shouldnt be

Standing at football games is illegal - but it shouldnt be

If all you do is "follow laws under whose jurisdiction I live" then i honestly do despair for you and your society.

How is it stupid? You are trying to tell us all that the pig has feelings too and we should respect that, i'm pointing out that we offer pigs and other animals that we eat a much better life and death than they would get in the wild. You keep saying meateaters are "killing for pleasure", well you would evidently prefer animals to lives a much more difficult life and suffer a much more difficult death as long as it means you don't have to deal with the guilt of being responsible for their death. Different pleasures, same outcomes, only your animal suffers a much worse fate than mine. Which one of us is on the side of the animals again?

They live a life that suits your needs, i suggest that battery hens, or pigs in cages, feed lot cows and virtually all factory farmed animals live a far worse life than they would have if left free. They do run the risk of unpleasant death, but a slow death (which most are not, as carnivorous animals know how to kill efficiently) is preferable to a life in torment and torture. By the way, dont assume that our slaughterhouses are all efficient killing factories... have a read of some of the horrors inflicted on the innocent creatures.

Oz, what are your thoughts on keeping pets? Things like what pets are acceptable, how you treat them, how you feed them, etc, etc...

As a general rule, im opposed to pets, (but its a generational thing so please dont wander down the "millions of puppies etc being killed"). The reason behind my opposition is that there are thousands of Puppy/kitten Factorys around the world pumping out deformed animals to suit a society that judges the value of an animal by how cute it is, or whether it makes the owner look tough, or if it fits in a handbag.

Oz - just fvck off. Let's try and get our own species to try and treat each other with respect before we start into other species. I don't eat meat based on ethical beliefs but I'm not going to tell other people what to eat. All you can do is give them the information if they ask for it and then let them make up their own minds.

I think you will find, that is how this topic started, but then people such as yourself come in telling me to fvck off and telling me how to live. im not going to sit around and wait for sh1t to change, if i believe in something, i will tell people, If i see what i believe to be wrong, i will argue against it...

i dont expect people to change, i expect them to question. People who sit around saying, " it cant change", "its too hard", "its impossible".. are exactly the reason it is... for them.

Ask a question i will answer it.

As for killing our own species, i am appalled by the level at which we do it, and unlike many others i actually do things to try and prevent it. But... this is a topic about ANIMAL RIGHTS, if you want to start a topic about stopping people killing each other... go for it, ill be in there supporting you along with the majority of the population... the difference is animals dont have a voice, if humans dont stand up for them, they are defenseless.

By the way, it is a well established fact that cruelty toward animals is a direct link to cruelty toward humans, fix the first..lower the likelihood of the second.

When dogs start discrimating against each other based on breed, give me a shout and I'll help you man the barricades against this abomination.

[Zingari]

Oz, are your entire family and friends vegan?

If not, how do you feel about them? Do you view meat eaters as cruel people or merely badly educated about the reality of it ?

Does your to stance cause you to lose any friends or alienate family members, or does it in any way affect your personal relationships?

Basically I just want to know if this is a whole lifestyle issue for you, or limited to this type of forum based expression.

I realise this may be too personal so I understand if you’d rather not answer.

[Rincewind]

Last night I did a sort of byrani with Quorn mince. Wasn't too bad. Added some curry powder so had to have a bottle of beer to cool it down. The byrani may have been better with more herbs and spices and some veg but it was a change to my usual Sunday dinner. Easy to do in he microwave.

[ozleicester]

Oz, are your entire family and friends vegan?

Nope, other than my immediate family the rest are meat eaters

If not, how do you feel about them? Do you view meat eaters as cruel people or merely badly educated about the reality of it ?

I love my family..(well as much as anyone can love their family) No i dont view them or any meat eater as cruel, i do see them as somewhat hypocritical and selfish in putting their needs above the life of others, many people, my family included, are unaware of the horrors we inflict on animals, but as with this forum, i dont pratttle on about it every time we eat/chat or meet. If im asked a question i will answer it honestly and openly.

Does your to stance cause you to lose any friends or alienate family members, or does it in any way affect your personal relationships?

not usually. (or at least not that im aware of) I am, in the main, a pretty laid back open to discussion and debate kind of person. I rarely become aggressive (its the whole, veggie, peace loving hippie mindset) but i will respond in kind.

Basically I just want to know if this is a whole lifestyle issue for you, or limited to this type of forum based expression.

Its a lifestyle issue in that it is relevant to my life, but in the 4-5 years and thousands of posts (get a life) on the forum, excluding this topic, im guessing it has figured in perhaps a dozen or two discussions... so it clearly isnt all consuming.

I realise this may be too personal so I understand if you’d rather not answer.

No worries, i think if you look at the early posts in this topic, i was very relaxed and just expressing an opinion, it seems to me, that a lot of folk took it personally and wanted to get narky, and i wandered down the same slope. I recognise and accept that my views are outside the norm and are contentious and to some, threatening. But, they are my views and i stand by them. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

I dont for one minute expect to see veggieism become dominant in the western world in my lifetime, but i hope to see a continued improvement of the treatment of the animals we kill for our own pleasure. I know that this line is upsetting or offending some people and i guess thats its intention.

I accept that others eat meat, in fact i sat at lunch today with 5 other people who enjoyed and discussed at length the deliciousness of the roast chicken they were eating, as is their right..... But dont be blinkered that we need to eat meat, or we dont have a choice. We do it for pleasure.

As many of the posters have said they like the taste and they will continue eating because of that.

I recently had a discussion with friends (yes i do have them) about the new invitro meat.

http://www.reuters.c...E7AA30020111111

What does everyone think... are you happy to eat "created meat"?