Animal rights

[Daggers]

I evolved to eat pepperoni pizza and cheesecake.

[Darkon84]

The Nutrional value isnt particuarly any less than other forms of meat, and organs etc are quite nutritious.

We arent purely vegetarian 'by design', we have and always will be omnivores (well, not in your case etc obviously ). Suggesting we only began to eat meat because of climate change, surely proves the fact that we evolved and needed to eat meat. You cant say its not natural, and then say we adapted to a situation for self preservation. That IS natural, thats how nature and evolution and survival of the fittest works.

Comparing eating a child, to eating a pig is plain ridiculous and doesnt really deserve any more on an answer than this....If YOU HAD TO CHOOSE, would you choose to eat a child over a pig then? Any answer other than 'I would choose the pig', is a lie

[marty78]

Would we be able to hold a conversation if we hadn't started eating meat?

Would our brains have grown sufficiently to allow us to even have morals?

Where would we be if we hadn't started hunting in groups, making increasingly better standards of tools, wearing animal skins or controlling animals for farming?

Did the carnivores that fed on our ancestors have the right to survival by doing so?

[marty78]

marty78, on 07 August 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Would we be able to hold a conversation if we hadn't started eating meat? Yes, we would

Would our brains have grown sufficiently to allow us to even have morals? Yes, we would

Where would we be if we hadn't started hunting in groups, making increasingly better standards of tools, wearing animal skins or controlling animals for farming?

Did the carnivores that fed on our ancestors have the right to survival by doing so?

Carnivores NEED to eat meat and they have the right to eat even if that includes us.

By the way... you may note that moosebreath is representing the meateaters ... so i could contend that meat eating leads to becoming a total fvckwit and the evidence shows that to be true.

What is the basis for your "Yes, we would" answer to the first two questions?

You forgot the third question(s).

Moosebreath represents only himself, as do I. That is a strange argument and is of similar ignorance as his post. Vegtarian=gay and Meat eating=fvckwit, see the similarities?

[ozleicester]

Can anyone explain where the recent posts have gone?

[AoWW]

Can anyone explain where the recent posts have gone?

The bin.

[ozleicester]

The bin.

I dont understand why?

[AoWW]

I dont understand why?

I've tried to PM you but your inbox is (presumably) full.

[Parafox]

On a related note, why is meat so expensive these days? Chicken, for example, a near luxury. Yet eggs are still very cheap so it can't be due to transport costs as they come from and go to exactly the same place. I don't understand why little animals which are very cheap and easy to farm can be so expensive to buy.

Chickens going cheep... drrrummm-tsssh

I'm here all week, folks

[ozleicester]

I've tried to PM you but your inbox is (presumably) full.

Apologies.. thanks... once i figure out how to empty, i will

[BoneDog]

Those donkey sanctuary adverts get me every time. The little fellas look so sad.

I'd cheer them up if they lived in my back garden and they'd be laughing and running around all day, but I haven't got the resources so all I can do is well up when the adverts come on.

[Captain...]

Those donkey sanctuary adverts get me every time. The little fellas look so sad.

I'd cheer them up if they lived in my back garden and they'd be laughing and running around all day, but I haven't got the resources so all I can do is well up when the adverts come on.

but if you ate it after a few years you would get some of your investment back.

[OzFox]

Sharks see shit anyway - fat moving blob in the water, must be a seal and chows down. If that seal turns out to be some twat on a surfboard, then too bad for him.

You might be right, but it doesn't explain why some sharks come back for seconds. They obviously enjoy what they're chomping. Maybe some surfers are more nutritious than others?

Well, no - which is a reason to slow down on the amount we eat, not stop all together. Just as the lion is better off if it doesn't kill all the antelope, we could do with a reasonable amount of animals still alive - and lo and behold, the farms exist - problem solved.

Animals aren't here just for our use or enjoyment, although a lot of people obviously think otherwise. I see a day when the only animals we have left bigger than a dog, are domesticated one's we're going to eat.

Ironic that we're spending a fortune looking for life on another planet, yet we're doing our best to wipe out life on this one. I bet if we did find a little colony of Martians, we'd immediately build roads, a housing estate and a great big fvcking shopping mall right in the middle of their habitat. It's what we do to everything else after all.

[ozleicester]

We arent purely vegetarian 'by design', we have and always will be omnivores (well, not in your case etc obviously ). Suggesting we only began to eat meat because of climate change, surely proves the fact that we evolved and needed to eat meat. You cant say its not natural, and then say we adapted to a situation for self preservation. That IS natural, thats how nature and evolution and survival of the fittest works.

I will acknowledge that we did evolve to eating meat, due to mainly climatic conditions, however that does not mean we HAVE to continue to eat meat..in fact as mentioned earlier, evolution has stopped us treating other races as slaves and has seen us adapt a more equal society... so yes we did evolve to meat because we had to.. now we dont have to... we should (and i believe we are) therefore evolve to stop killing and eating another living creature.

Comparing eating a child, to eating a pig is plain ridiculous and doesnt really deserve any more on an answer than this....If YOU HAD TO CHOOSE, would you choose to eat a child over a pig then? Any answer other than 'I would choose the pig', is a lie

This really is not ridiculous... Pigs are more intelligent than many 3 year old children, therefore, they are more able to feel pain and understand as they watch the pig ahead of them going to be killed, pigs scream, they cry, they develop relationships.. everything that a child/baby does, so... why is it ok to eat them.. and not to just farm and eat 2 year olds?.... what is the difference?

marty78, on 07 August 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Would we be able to hold a conversation if we hadn't started eating meat? Yes, we would

Would our brains have grown sufficiently to allow us to even have morals? Yes, we would

Where would we be if we hadn't started hunting in groups, making increasingly better standards of tools, wearing animal skins or controlling animals for farming?

Did the carnivores that fed on our ancestors have the right to survival by doing so?

Carnivores NEED to eat meat and they have the right to eat even if that includes us.

By the way... you may note that moosebreath is representing the meateaters ... so i could contend that meat eating leads to becoming a total fvckwit and the evidence shows that to be true.

What is the basis for your "Yes, we would" answer to the first two questions?

You forgot the third question(s).

The basis is in the fact that prior to eating meat, we had evolved and developed, we would have continued to do so without eating meat..I acknowledge that it was required that we do so.... but, it is no longer required, we can get all of our needs and dietary requirements without the need to kill... this is evolution, continuing to eat dead animal..is failing to evolve.

Moosebreath represents only himself, as do I. That is a strange argument and is of similar ignorance as his post. Vegtarian=gay and Meat eating=fvckwit, see the similarities?

To be fair.. i think it was pretty obvious that MB's coments were absurd and bordering on insane, i think most intelligent people could guess that my comment was in jest,

You might be right, but it doesn't explain why some sharks come back for seconds. They obviously enjoy what they're chomping. Maybe some surfers are more nutritious than others?

Animals aren't here just for our use or enjoyment, although a lot of people obviously think otherwise. I see a day when the only animals we have left bigger than a dog, are domesticated one's we're going to eat.

Ironic that we're spending a fortune looking for life on another planet, yet we're doing our best to wipe out life on this one. I bet if we did find a little colony of Martians, we'd immediately build roads, a housing estate and a great big fvcking shopping mall right in the middle of their habitat. It's what we do to everything else after all.

As it stands... this is what many people do actually think, animals serve no other purpose than to please Humans.

[Captain...]

Stuff in quotes that I can't quote, because it is in quotes.

Re: Farming humans for food, it is just impractical, it takes at least 11 years before a female human becomes fertile and litter size is normally 1 occasionally 2, unless you want to embark on in vitro fertilisation, in which case you could get up to 8, then it would take another 11 years minimum before a human child has grown enough to actually be able to make a decent burger, and we eat a lot more than pigs, are noisier and require mush more care and attention to develop in our formative years, with selective breeding we could get humans fatter and to develop quicker, but this would take a long term breeding plan. This is without including anecdotal evidence that cannibalism sends you mad and causes other problems.

Re: Animals being here for our enjoyment, that is not why they are here, they are here through a series of fortuitous chance events, an incredible amount of good fortune in how life got started on this earth and by surviving numerous diseases, disasters and predators, they are not here for any reason, like us, they are just here. Seeing as we are here, then we, like they, will adapt to use what is around us to survive and reproduce (that is all we want to do).

Now I have a question for you:

Are you able to provide for yourself and family all the nutrients and protein that you need during the year if you were living off the land? Imagine you lived in a wild, natural environment, are there sufficient plants, vegetables, fruit, nuts to sustain you through out the year? This includes during the winter time when the ground is frozen, the plants are dead, the vegetables rotten, the nuts have fallen and germinated, you are cold and need to bulk up on fat to see off the winter and to survive.

I don't know about Australia but in the UK you can't, unless you eat meat, and would need to, to survive, and we will never "evolve" away from eating meat because it would be detrimental to our chances of survival. That is why it is natural.

Right now you can gather and collect your nuts and berries and ship them all around the world, transport them on roads built through natural habitats and polluting the earth, not to mention consuming natural resources, mined from the ground or chopped down from the forests. We can also preserve food for longer by filling it full of chemicals, or by freezing it, but take all of that away and you would have to adapt and eat meat or die of stubbornness on principle.

[ozleicester]

Re: Farming humans for food, it is just impractical, it takes at least 11 years before a female human becomes fertile and litter size is normally 1 occasionally 2, unless you want to embark on in vitro fertilisation, in which case you could get up to 8, then it would take another 11 years minimum before a human child has grown enough to actually be able to make a decent burger, and we eat a lot more than pigs, are noisier and require mush more care and attention to develop in our formative years, with selective breeding we could get humans fatter and to develop quicker, but this would take a long term breeding plan. This is without including anecdotal evidence that cannibalism sends you mad and causes other problems.

Re: Animals being here for our enjoyment, that is not why they are here, they are here through a series of fortuitous chance events, an incredible amount of good fortune in how life got started on this earth and by surviving numerous diseases, disasters and predators, they are not here for any reason, like us, they are just here. Seeing as we are here, then we, like they, will adapt to use what is around us to survive and reproduce (that is all we want to do).

Now I have a question for you:

Are you able to provide for yourself and family all the nutrients and protein that you need during the year if you were living off the land? Imagine you lived in a wild, natural environment, are there sufficient plants, vegetables, fruit, nuts to sustain you through out the year? This includes during the winter time when the ground is frozen, the plants are dead, the vegetables rotten, the nuts have fallen and germinated, you are cold and need to bulk up on fat to see off the winter and to survive.

I don't know about Australia but in the UK you can't, unless you eat meat, and would need to, to survive, and we will never "evolve" away from eating meat because it would be detrimental to our chances of survival. That is why it is natural.

Right now you can gather and collect your nuts and berries and ship them all around the world, transport them on roads built through natural habitats and polluting the earth, not to mention consuming natural resources, mined from the ground or chopped down from the forests. We can also preserve food for longer by filling it full of chemicals, or by freezing it, but take all of that away and you would have to adapt and eat meat or die of stubbornness on principle.

Im not suggesting we SHOULD farm/eat humans, far from it, my point is in fact that we should not be killing any animal for our pleasure, that includes humans. I am asking why the eating of a pig is different to the eating of a human?

Agreed we, and they are here by a wonderful fluke... but why do we have the right to kill them.. just because we can?. effectively you are saying that anything we are stronger than, or more intelligent than... we should be able to kill If it suits us? (you may want to keep an eye out for headcases on sat nights full o pi$$ and ready to punch the crap out of anyone they meet).

As to your question.

No, i could not live life in the wild and provide for my family... but thats because i have evolved, I cant start a fire with 2 sticks... but i have amazing dexterity with a lighter.

You are right, we can collect and preserve and transport all we need in terms of food all around the world. Evolution has presented us with these skills and abilities. So why do we continue to unnecessarily kill innocent animals?

[OzFox]

Re: Animals being here for our enjoyment, that is not why they are here, they are here through a series of fortuitous chance events, an incredible amount of good fortune in how life got started on this earth and by surviving numerous diseases, disasters and predators, they are not here for any reason, like us, they are just here. Seeing as we are here, then we, like they, will adapt to use what is around us to survive and reproduce (that is all we want to do).

Agree with the first bit, but our survival and reproduction is now on such a scale that it endangers an awful lot of wildlife. Our population is too big. As it gets even bigger, we can kiss goodbye to tigers, rhinos, lions, orangutans etc etc apart from the ones stuffed into reserves and zoos. That sucks in my opinion.

The Aussies are even putting their iconic koala in the shit. Flattening habitat for er, roads, housing estates and fvcking big shopping malls.

[Captain...]

Im not suggesting we SHOULD farm/eat humans, far from it, my point is in fact that we should not be killing any animal for our pleasure, that includes humans. I am asking why the eating of a pig is different to the eating of a human?

I know, I was just pointing one reason why pigs are easier to breed than humans,

Agreed we, and they are here by a wonderful fluke... but why do we have the right to kill them.. just because we can?. effectively you are saying that anything we are stronger than, or more intelligent than... we should be able to kill If it suits us? (you may want to keep an eye out for headcases on sat nights full o pi$$ and ready to punch the crap out of anyone they meet).

I didn't say we have the right to kill them, but we like all animals, adapt to our environments to maximise our chances of survival, it is not about doing it because we can, as my question below tried to illustrate it is because we had to, we needed the meat to provide the fat cells so we could get through the winter, if we hadn't adapted to eat meat we would not be here now.

As to your question.

No, i could not live life in the wild and provide for my family... but thats because i have evolved, I cant start a fire with 2 sticks... but i have amazing dexterity with a lighter.

You are right, we can collect and preserve and transport all we need in terms of food all around the world. Evolution has presented us with these skills and abilities. So why do we continue to unnecessarily kill innocent animals?

You realise that is not evolution, that is going backwards, we are not evolving, we are just progressing technologically to able to counteract the fact we are much weaker now than we were, much more susceptible to disease, and less able to survive without the comforts of the modern world. We are keeping alive and passing on/spreading genetic flaws and we are under no threat to survival so advantageous genetic mutations will not be spread. We also don't mate with our siblings which is a sure fire why to create mutations.

My point is that if we didn't eat meat we would be putting ourselves at a massive disadvantage, we would not be able to survive the winter if we lived in the wild. I am talking about true survival here, and as a long term practising Vegan you would probably be physically sick if you tried to eat meat now. I am not saying that the nuclear holocaust is coming, or that the energy will run out and we will need to live off the land, but if we did, I know who I would back to survive.

I agree with you on a lot of things about how meat is farmed and how animals are treated, but what it comes down to is this, we are omnivorous for a reason, that is how we have evolved, to argue against evolution is normally the preserve of the religious fanatics, just because right now we can live without meat, doesn't mean we should because one day you might need to.

[marty78]

"The basis is in the fact that prior to eating meat, we had evolved and developed, we would have continued to do so without eating meat..I acknowledge that it was required that we do so.... but, it is no longer required, we can get all of our needs and dietary requirements without the need to kill... this is evolution, continuing to eat dead animal..is failing to evolve."

I ask because as far as I am aware Homo Sapiens have always eaten meat. We have found evidence that our ancestors ate meat up to 2.5m years ago at least and modern humans can only really be said to have become modern (anatomically) 250,000 years ago and behaviorally it is more like 50,000 years.

Chimpanzees, with which we share a common ancestor, are intriguing because we are so closely related and Chimps hunt in groups and eat meat despite not being anymore carnivorous than humans. In fact Chimps do not need meat and hunt (in dense forest areas with a plethora of fruits and berries) for social reasons rather than nutritional benefits. I mention Chimps because you said it was okay for carnivores to eat meat on the basis of survival but Chimps eat meat for reasons other than survival. So if Humans became vegetarian should we force Chimps to do the same by controlling their environment?

[Houdini Logic]

Unless you're a hardline vegan I guarantee there's not one person on here who wouldn't have eaten, wore or bought a bit of dead animal in the past week or so.

[Zingari]

Those donkey sanctuary adverts get me every time. The little fellas look so sad.

I'd cheer them up if they lived in my back garden and they'd be laughing and running around all day, but I haven't got the resources so all I can do is well up when the adverts come on.

can you post some pics of happy donkeys and sad donkeys so i can learn to tell the difference ?

[Daggers]

I bet if we did find a little colony of Martians, we'd immediately build roads, a housing estate and a great big fvcking shopping mall right in the middle of their habitat. It's what we do to everything else after all.

What, like in the niches occupied by sharks? We've got a family of Angler fish moved in next door because they were displaced by a shopping mall development.

[MooseBreath]

Disappointed to get banned for suggesting a link between the mindset of a homosexual and the mindset of a vegetarian to be honest. I thought I was being quite insightful and certainly wasn't looking to offend anyone.

[Captain...]

Disappointed to get banned for suggesting a link between the mindset of a homosexual and the mindset of a vegetarian to be honest. I thought I was being quite insightful and certainly wasn't looking to offend anyone.

you got banned?

When?

Please don't tell me while I was away for the weekend Moosey was banned, and now 'mI back so is he. FML

[MooseBreath]

you got banned?

When?

Please don't tell me while I was away for the weekend Moosey was banned, and now 'mI back so is he. FML

I was banned for 24 hours from 1.30pm yesterday, so I'm now rehabilitated and ultimately a much better person.