Safe Standing - Support the Early Day motion

[The Year Of The Fox]

By the by I don't see anyone mentioning my points about Hysel and the reason for fencing in the first place.Is this a case of selective reading ?

What do you mean by 'the reason for fencing'

The safe standing model going around the country and widely used in Germany have barriers on every row, meaning its physically impossible for the crowd to surge.

The whole capacity of our stadium do this behind one goal at Dortmund

[Kitchandro]

Come on, someone has to be trolling when they bring up Heysel

[Bilo]

By the by I don't see anyone mentioning my points about Hysel and the reason for fencing in the first place.Is this a case of selective reading ?

Heysel was caused by a combination of a crumbling, poorly designed stadium, mass hooliganism, abysmal policing, inadequate segregation, the failure of UEFA to act on legitimate concerns and a desire for revenge from Liverpool fans for incidents that took place twelve months earlier. The charging that ultimately caused the disaster could not have happened on modern safe standing stands as sections are properly segregated and prevent charging.

Fencing was a last and failed resort for the police being unable to handle something that simply doesn't exist any more, mass hooliganism in grounds. Why it doesn't exist owes far more to improved police and judicial tactics and intelligence than it does to the humble plastic seat.

Again; both of these problems occurred under the old terracing model, which is not being proposed as a viable option. The terracing of old was unsafe, poorly designed and poorly policed. Safe standing areas such as rail seats are wholly different. They are purpose built to combat hooliganism, crushing, crowd surges and other dangers. Both of the problems are relevant only to terracing, not safe standing.

Simply put; this isn't bringing anything back, it's introducing something that has never been seen in this country.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Heysel was caused by a combination of a crumbling, poorly designed stadium, mass hooliganism, abysmal policing, inadequate segregation, the failure of UEFA to act on legitimate concerns and a desire for revenge from Liverpool fans for incidents that took place twelve months earlier. The charging that ultimately caused the disaster could not have happened on modern safe standing stands as sections are properly segregated and prevent charging.

Fencing was a last and failed resort for the police being unable to handle something that simply doesn't exist any more, mass hooliganism in grounds. Why it doesn't exist owes far more to improved police and judicial tactics and intelligence than it does to the humble plastic seat.

Again; both of these problems occurred under the old terracing model, which is not being proposed as a viable option. The terracing of old was unsafe, poorly designed and poorly policed. Safe standing areas such as rail seats are wholly different. They are purpose built to combat hooliganism, crushing, crowd surges and other dangers. Both of the problems are relevant only to terracing, not safe standing.

Simply put; this isn't bringing anything back, it's introducing something that has never been seen in this country.

I keep saying you need to be our spokesman

[1964FOX]

Was just me and my friends or was the seating at Bristol Very dangerous, very easy to fall off/ over.

[flowwolf]

What do you mean by 'the reason for fencing'

The safe standing model going around the country and widely used in Germany have barriers on every row, meaning its physically impossible for the crowd to surge.

The whole capacity of our stadium do this behind one goal at Dortmund

So what is the point of standing then ? using Germany as an analogy is a non starter we are not Germans who have a better culture than us.

Edited 14 January 2013 by flowwolf

[flowwolf]

Heysel was caused by a combination of a crumbling, poorly designed stadium, mass hooliganism, abysmal policing, inadequate segregation, the failure of UEFA to act on legitimate concerns and a desire for revenge from Liverpool fans for incidents that took place twelve months earlier. The charging that ultimately caused the disaster could not have happened on modern safe standing stands as sections are properly segregated and prevent charging.

Fencing was a last and failed resort for the police being unable to handle something that simply doesn't exist any more, mass hooliganism in grounds. Why it doesn't exist owes far more to improved police and judicial tactics and intelligence than it does to the humble plastic seat.

Again; both of these problems occurred under the old terracing model, which is not being proposed as a viable option. The terracing of old was unsafe, poorly designed and poorly policed. Safe standing areas such as rail seats are wholly different. They are purpose built to combat hooliganism, crushing, crowd surges and other dangers. Both of the problems are relevant only to terracing, not safe standing.

Simply put; this isn't bringing anything back, it's introducing something that has never been seen in this country.

I say again so what is the point of standing ? if you can't move from your alloted position you may aswell sit down. how does standing up improve anything ?

[flowwolf]

I keep saying you need to be our spokesman

And I keep saying the opposite. Why on earth are clubs going to give up the control they have now. They have us all seated, minimum stewardship minimum policing minimum costs, no threat of people standing with other people throwing things on the pitch crouching behind them so as not to get caught on camera. It simply is not going to happen. Once in control they will always stay that way the old days are dead and buried.

Edited 14 January 2013 by flowwolf

[Bilo]

I say again so what is the point of standing ? if you can't move from your alloted position you may aswell sit down. how does standing up improve anything ?

Research indicates that we are psychologically more inclined to sing while standing, as well as physically more able due to the diaphragm being freed up.

It also means you're far more able to participate in the displays of flags and banners as seen in Germany.

Furthermore, the capacity increases with safe standing areas, German rules stipulate that every standing place can have 1.5 times as many people in it as a seated place. In other words, if a seating area can take 1,000 people a safe standing area can safely hold 1,500 people.

In addition, authorities would have to relinquish little control. Indeed, they may have more control. How often do fans move from their allocated seat in a game? I'm almost never in my allocated seat at an away game and I know this to be the case with many of our fans. This means that in order to find me, the police have over 4,000 seats to choose from in the case of Hillsborough's Leppings Lane end. In a safe standing area, tickets are only valid for a particular block of no more than 1,000 places.

Moreover, there are rails on every row meaning that if the police do wish to apprehend a misbehaving fan they can 'trap' them by standing at either end of the row in order to stop their escape. This is much easier to police than the status quo, where I could very easily escape by clambering over seats behind or in front of me.

Given the fact that these areas are enormously popular due to the atmosphere they generate and the sensible pricing that comes with them, Borussia Dortmund's 25,000 capacity Sudtribune sells out for every single game, the financial benefits to the club are obvious.

Edited 14 January 2013 by Bilo

[flowwolf]

Come on, someone has to be trolling when they bring up Heysel

Err why ? elucidate.

[Bilo]

So what is the point of standing then ? using Germany as an analogy is a non starter we are not Germans who have a better culture than us.

You'd probably change your mind if you saw a match between Hansa Rostock and St. Pauli.

[flowwolf]

Research indicates that we are psychologically more inclined to sing while standing, as well as physically more able due to the diaphragm being freed up.

It also means you're far more able to participate in the displays of flags and banners as seen in Germany.

Furthermore, the capacity increases with safe standing areas, German rules stipulate that every standing place can have 1.5 times as many people in it as a seated place. In other words, if a seating area can take 1,000 people a safe standing area can safely hold 1,500 people.

In addition, authorities would have to relinquish little control. Indeed, they may have more control. How often do fans move from their allocated seat in a game? I'm almost never in my allocated seat at an away game and I know this to be the case with many of our fans. This means that in order to find me, the police have over 4,000 seats to choose from in the case of Hillsborough's Leppings Lane end. In a safe standing area, tickets are only valid for a particular block of no more than 1,000 places.

Moreover, there are rails on every row meaning that if the police do wish to apprehend a misbehaving fan they can 'trap' them by standing at either end of the row in order to stop their escape. This is much easier to police than the status quo, where I could very easily escape by clambering over seats behind or in front of me.

Given the fact that these areas are enormously popular due to the atmosphere they generate and the sensible pricing that comes with them, Borussia Dortmund's 25,000 capacity Sudtribune sells out for every single game, the financial benefits to the club are obvious.

Capcity ? we can't fill our ground now. And as I have already said you cannot compare us to the Germans they have a better mind set, they did not have to resort to the measures we did that lead to the hillsborough dissaster. It is and always has been an English disease, and there is no way the authorities are going to take a chance on going back to those dark days. And the system they have now means they don't have to have any police in the ground to " trap " anyone. ps glad to see your still up.

Edited 14 January 2013 by flowwolf

[EnglishOxide]

I sometimes wonder what it must be like to be as stupid as you. No worries, little knowledge and a blissful lack of self awareness. You must be so ****ing happy.

Edited 14 January 2013 by EnglishOxide

[Kitchandro]

Err why ? elucidate.

Because if it's possible Heysel holds even less relevance to the debate than Hillsborough.

[Dan LCFC]

Was just me and my friends or was the seating at Bristol Very dangerous, very easy to fall off/ over.

So easy that I managed it twice fvck off Chris Wood.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Capcity ? we can't fill our ground now. And as I have already said you cannot compare us to the Germans they have a better mind set, they did not have to resort to the measures we did that lead to the hillsborough dissaster. It is and always has been an English disease, and there is no way the authorities are going to take a chance on going back to those dark days. And the system they have now means they don't have to have any police in the ground to " trap " anyone. ps glad to see your still up.

Its also about choice too. Watching football seated is a pet hate of mine. I'd simply rather not go. Times I've been made to sit either by stewards like at leeds or man city in the cup at home being stuck right at the front of K in front of fans who'd rather sit.

Its also a lot safer than standing in a seated area like l block.

Now, you yourself may think its a waste of time or whatever, but surely at least you can see the benefits of giving choice to fans？

[C-man]

Capcity ? we can't fill our ground now. And as I have already said you cannot compare us to the Germans they have a better mind set, they did not have to resort to the measures we did that lead to the hillsborough dissaster. It is and always has been an English disease, and there is no way the authorities are going to take a chance on going back to those dark days. And the system they have now means they don't have to have any police in the ground to " trap " anyone. ps glad to see your still up.

'English disease' - trust me, there is far more trouble in Germany now (take yesterday's news on Aachen Ultras being forced out of their own ground by a neo-nazi group called the KBU, who also claim to 'support' Aachen, for example) than there is in England.

For the record, the KBU operate in a seated area of the Tivoli.

If they can use safe standing, record the highest attendances in any league outside the NFL and not see any injuries, I don't see why we can't.

Bilo has got everything absolutely spot on.

[indierich06]

Heysel was caused by a combination of a crumbling, poorly designed stadium, mass hooliganism, abysmal policing, inadequate segregation, the failure of UEFA to act on legitimate concerns and a desire for revenge from Liverpool fans for incidents that took place twelve months earlier. The charging that ultimately caused the disaster could not have happened on modern safe standing stands as sections are properly segregated and prevent charging.

Fencing was a last and failed resort for the police being unable to handle something that simply doesn't exist any more, mass hooliganism in grounds. Why it doesn't exist owes far more to improved police and judicial tactics and intelligence than it does to the humble plastic seat.

Again; both of these problems occurred under the old terracing model, which is not being proposed as a viable option. The terracing of old was unsafe, poorly designed and poorly policed. Safe standing areas such as rail seats are wholly different. They are purpose built to combat hooliganism, crushing, crowd surges and other dangers. Both of the problems are relevant only to terracing, not safe standing.

Simply put; this isn't bringing anything back, it's introducing something that has never been seen in this country.

Well said. It seems those who are against it, or dismiss it out of hand haven't really taken the time to see that it's a million miles away from the old terracing system. It's called safe standing for a reason - it's perfectly safe. Much safer than the current system where people stand in rows of seats.

[indierich06]

Capcity ? we can't fill our ground now. And as I have already said you cannot compare us to the Germans they have a better mind set, they did not have to resort to the measures we did that lead to the hillsborough dissaster. It is and always has been an English disease, and there is no way the authorities are going to take a chance on going back to those dark days. And the system they have now means they don't have to have any police in the ground to " trap " anyone. ps glad to see your still up.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Let me repeat what dozens of others have said in this thread; with safe standing, there is no way there can be a repeat of anything like Heysel or Hillsborough. Every week at grounds across the country, hundreds - maybe even thousands - of fans stand for 90 minutes. There is no way this can really be policed, or stopped. The proposed safe standing system would allow them to do this safely and without putting themselves or others at risk.

[1964FOX]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Let me repeat what dozens of others have said in this thread; with safe standing, there is no way there can be a repeat of anything like Heysel or Hillsborough. Every week at grounds across the country, hundreds - maybe even thousands - of fans stand for 90 minutes. There is no way this can really be policed, or stopped. The proposed safe standing system would allow them to do this safely and without putting themselves or others at risk.

Yes he is clearly deliberately obtuse with a small sprinkling of wummery. He does encourage debate though.

[flowwolf]

I sometimes wonder what it must be like to be as stupid as you. No worries, little knowledge and a blissful lack of self awareness. You must be so ****ing happy.

Yes because your well thought our reply puts my intelligence into the shade does it not ? You either could not be bothered to give a counter argument or you do not have that ability. personally I think it's the latter.

For you to call anyone else stupid when you post contained nothing other than idiotic gainsay amounts to the most pathetic post I have ever had the misfortune to read. No need to wonder any longer you have been owned.

[flowwolf]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Let me repeat what dozens of others have said in this thread; with safe standing, there is no way there can be a repeat of anything like Heysel or Hillsborough. Every week at grounds across the country, hundreds - maybe even thousands - of fans stand for 90 minutes. There is no way this can really be policed, or stopped. The proposed safe standing system would allow them to do this safely and without putting themselves or others at risk.

Allow me to repeat , it is not going to happen, that is not being obtuse that is being realist. You can all say what you like on here but none of you have the power to change a thing and those in power will never allow standing again safe or otherwise. I realise that makes me unpopular but I think i'm used to that by now , at least I don't get ambition mixed up with ability.

[flowwolf]

Yes he is clearly deliberately obtuse with a small sprinkling of wummery. He does encourage debate though.

With that in mind have I earned my place at the table ?

[Lobsterboyuk]

Capcity ? we can't fill our ground now. And as I have already said you cannot compare us to the Germans they have a better mind set, they did not have to resort to the measures we did that lead to the hillsborough dissaster. It is and always has been an English disease, and there is no way the authorities are going to take a chance on going back to those dark days. And the system they have now means they don't have to have any police in the ground to " trap " anyone. ps glad to see your still up.

It's an uphill task to get safe standing trials going and your pessimism about it's chances are reflective of most people's opinions I fear. But I am mightily impressed by the FSF, for once there is an organisation resembling something of the "German" mind set. Rather than pockets of disorganised supporters we have a proper campaigning approach going on. They're playing the game well and in spite of the Hillsborough/Heysel tragic events they are getting face time with some influential people and achieving some impressive lobbying. Will there be an overnight installation of safe standing throughout the land, I doubt it, but some trials within a few years doesn't seem impossible.

As to capacities, our "standing" section in L1 has a waiting list. This is not about converting the whole stadium, most fans *want* to sit let's be clear. But there is a (profitable) minority who want to stand, I think it's three times more fans in a safe standing row compared to the same space as seats. If they changed the upper section of L1 I'm confident the club would fill it with season ticket holders including folk who don't actually attend regularly at the moment.

You have to acknowledge the growing number of clubs that have publicly backed this and the SPL are in the process of changing their regulations to allow standing. CCTV technology has improved massively since the dark days and you'll probably have to have a membership card (i.e. you're only going to be naughty once before you get your banning order).

Edited 14 January 2013 by Lobsterboyuk

[yorkie1999]

It's an uphill task to get safe standing trials going and your pessimism about it's chances are reflective of most people's opinions I fear. But I am mightily impressed by the FSF, for once there is an organisation resembling something of the "German" mind set. Rather than pockets of disorganised supporters we have a proper campaigning approach going on. They're playing the game well and in spite of the Hillsborough/Heysel tragic events they are getting face time with some influential people and achieving some impressive lobbying. Will there be an overnight installation of safe standing throughout the land, I doubt it, but some trials within a few years doesn't seem impossible.

As to capacities, our "standing" section in L1 has a waiting list. This is not about converting the whole stadium, most fans *want* to sit let's be clear. But there is a (profitable) minority who want to stand, I think it's three times more fans in a safe standing row compared to the same space as seats. If they changed the upper section of L1 I'm confident the club would fill it with season ticket holders including folk who don't actually attend regularly at the moment.

You have to acknowledge the growing number of clubs that have publicly backed this and the SPL are in the process of changing their regulations to allow standing. CCTV technology has improved massively since the dark days and you'll probably have to have a membership card (i.e. you're only going to be naughty once before you get your banning order).

They won't change the upper section of L1 to safe standing because of view restrictions, if they put it anywhere it will be in one of the corners or the kop.