Safe Standing - Support the Early Day motion

[Tom17LCFC]

Ian Stringer â€@StringerSport

RT @BBCSport: 13 clubs back reintroduction of standing at football grounds according to Football Supporters' Federation http://bbc.in/VAuhzO

[harpendenfox]

Personally I'd welcome a controlled standing area, but worth remembering attendance levels over the last 20 to 30 years. For example the 92/3 season which culminated in Wembley play off loss to Swindon, our average home attendance was 15,000 at a time when we were competing promotion all season. I think I'm right in saying we still had standing then, as the Kop became all seater in 94, I think?

[Kitchandro]

Personally I'd welcome a controlled standing area, but worth remembering attendance levels over the last 20 to 30 years. For example the 92/3 season which culminated in Wembley play off loss to Swindon, our average home attendance was 15,000 at a time when we were competing promotion all season. I think I'm right in saying we still had standing then, as the Kop became all seater in 94, I think?

The Kop became all seater in the summer of 94, after promotion in the play-offs.

Attendances probably did boom in the mid/late 90s for a number of reasons, football certainly became more popular to a wider audience.

It's safe to say however that boom has long gone and we're in a footballing recession now. It's worth noting our falling attendances more importantly

ooooo we've got Crimbo smileys :xmasbiggrin:

[Harry - LCFC]

The thing that gets me about this debate is that one side has well-reasoned, well thought out points backed up with factual evidence and common sense, and the other side has only childish, baseless cliches for arguments that are bordering on the retarded.

...and if Safe Standing were to be given a fair trial there'd be only one winner! We only need one good demonstration in front of the people who make the decisions and they'll have to concede defeat. The evidence is stacked against them and they can't win if Safe Standing supporters are allowed their rightful chance to speak out.

[GingerrrFox]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/20679867

Margeret's opinion is the major problem here, completely ignorant of the concept behind the proposals. Yes she lost her son at Hillsborough, but it's this kind of attitude which will stop safe standing trials being introduced for a fair few years yet.

I get really ****ed off with all these busy bodies that shove their nose and uninformed, wrong opinion into things that frankly they no nothing about. This Margaret woman does she not realise that the Liverpool fans in the Kop at Anfield who sing justice for the 96 are doing so while stood up?!?

What people like her who have probably not been to a football ground don't realise is that it is far more unsafe to be stood in an area thats designed for you to seat than to have rail seats. I can't stand when people don't have a ****ing clue what they are talking about and just make some outrageous statements to back the bullshit that they spout. **** her and **** her bollocks opinion. Yes what happened at Hillsborough was a tragedy and yes it should have been dealt with differently by the police etc but now that this recent inquest has brought light to this and let people know the truth, can't they just ****ing get over it and move on? Stop bringing it up in the public forum, these people aren't the only ones to have tragedy in their life. There's been other tragedies over the years the list is endless! They need to stop tarnishing football with this massive, sweeping paint brush and let the people who this would effect most (the fans, the clubs, the police) decide.

Edited 11 December 2012 by GingerrrFox

[SMX11]

Cardiff's Chief Exec was just on Talksport and he described the reasons why Safe Standing should be allowed. Spoke well imo, shame our lot sits on the fence as usual.

[Maybes]

Got some good air time on Talksport this evening.

Both Goughie and Durham in support of it.

I really can't see why some people don't back it because the Hillsborough argument is flawed and that seems to be the sticking point for them.

Needs to be re-introduced and gives supporters and choice. Germany is the perfect example.

[Bilo]

I find it immensely sad that some of the Hillsborough families themselves have been sucked in by some of the propaganda against standing, propaganda that was aimed at deflecting blame away from the police. The fans themselves and terracing were the main targets of the smear campaign and that sadly continues with the latter, immensely disappointing.

The fact is that all of those 96 innocent fans chose to stand that day. They chose to stand because they loved the atmosphere it gave, the camaraderie and the cheap tickets. I daresay that if many of them had lived to see what football had become in their name, they'd be horrified. Just like many of us, they'd have seen the atmosphere and excitement of terracing seeping away. The season tickets would have gotten further and further out of their reach, with match tickets following. The matches they did make would have been dull, lifeless, corporate affairs.

People saying we need to keep all-seaters in memory of the 96 therefore miss the point.

Edited 11 December 2012 by Bilo

[anotherharboroughfox]

I do not think there is anything safe about standing.

So every time I stand up during the day I'm in grave danger?

It's just silly.

[davieG]

Unfortunately whilst we've still got idiots throwing coins etc it makes the job of convincing the nay sayers that much harder, sure you can throw coins from a seat but behaviour like this reinforces their view that all football fans are potential hooligans and need to be strictly controlled.,

[C-man]

Unfortunately whilst we've still got idiots throwing coins etc it makes the job of convincing the nay sayers that much harder, sure you can throw coins from a seat but behaviour like this reinforces their view that all football fans are potential hooligans and need to be strictly controlled.,

I think Jon Darch told me that a fair few police officers have now admitted that safe standing could even assist them in controlling a crowd. With a bar in front of them how could it not?

[Father Ted]

I think pretty much every argument in favour of safe standing has been covered and expressed time and time again, yet, continually the same people (unfortunately often those with power and no interest in football) ignore the arguments and continue with what they believe to be correct without doing any research into the situation.

The more clubs that continue to back the safe standing campaign the better. Unfortunately, I don't believe that lobbying our MPs will help at all. They have no interest. I have emailed Keith Vaz FOUR times with no response. Give him some stick (totally unrelated) on twitter (for the tosser that he is), he responded angrily before I replied with 'you can tweet me back but can't reply to my emails'. Within seconds, the smarmy tosser asks for my email address so that he can track the emails down and give me a response. MPs are not interested in the slightest.

As a result, I offer an alternative. We begin to lobby high profile celebrities on Twitter to RT a generic tweet if they are in favour Safe Standing in football and back the FSF's movements. We can set a date and time in which we can attempt to get a trend going and send twitter mad for a couple of hours and hopefully raise some publicity. I'll email FSF regarding this.

Would love to see this at the KP and it is a slow fight that is becoming more and more within our grasp on a daily basis.

#NoAlCalcioModerno

[Corky]

The Cardiff man on talkSport was excellent, clear, well-thought out arguments. I liked the fact he kept referring to the "open terrace" notion that seems to be a reason for not bringing it back, by making it clear it was not going to be like this (as most people who've looked into it will know) should hopefully reassure or educate those who are against it.

The main point, which I think might be lost, is that safety could be enchanced by this. A lot of injuries are sustained through standing in seated areas. Take out those seats in the current position and you avoid that. And it's only going to be a small percentage of the ground- those who want to sit will have the majority of the ground to choose from.

[davieG]

I think Jon Darch told me that a fair few police officers have now admitted that safe standing could even assist them in controlling a crowd. With a bar in front of them how could it not?

Maybe but it's not the official police line and the people that need to be influenced ie MPs will need to be convinced that we aren't all hooligans for them to vote in favour of a change and when they see the headlines and pictures of Ferdinand's bleeding head they'll hardly likely be persuaded.

[purpleronnie]

MP's won't want to rock the boat...unfortunately.

[davieG]

MP's won't want to rock the boat...unfortunately.

...and this gives them the perfect reason not too.

[Corky]

I see what you are saying davie but this behaviour could happen in a seated or standing area.

It shouldn't be the case that a few idiots mean the whole campaign is shut out.

[purpleronnie]

...and this gives them the perfect reason not too.

yep it certainly wont help, but the fact is the fans stood anyway.

And not surprise:-

Margaret Aspinall, chair of the Hillsborough Family Support Group

"There are 96 reasons why it should not be allowed.

"There were 96 dead at Hillsborough and it could have been a lot more.

"Standing should never, ever come back. I do not think there is anything safe about standing.

"I feel insulted that while people are trying to fight for justice for Hillsborough, that this campaign is growing now."

Incredible.

[davieG]

I see what you are saying davie but this behaviour could happen in a seated or standing area.

It shouldn't be the case that a few idiots mean the whole campaign is shut out.

Absolutely but when you're trying to convince people that don't have any concept of seating/safe standing or even attending a football match they won't see that.

[The Year Of The Fox]

I think Jon Darch told me that a fair few police officers have now admitted that safe standing could even assist them in controlling a crowd. With a bar in front of them how could it not?

They did jon told me the same thing

[davieG]

yep it certainly wont help, but the fact is the fans stood anyway.

And not surprise:-

Margaret Aspinall, chair of the Hillsborough Family Support Group

"There are 96 reasons why it should not be allowed.

"There were 96 dead at Hillsborough and it could have been a lot more.

"Standing should never, ever come back. I do not think there is anything safe about standing.

"I feel insulted that while people are trying to fight for justice for Hillsborough, that this campaign is growing now."

Incredible.

So even more convincing that standing encourages / abets that sort of behaviour.

[purpleronnie]

So even more convincing that standing encourages / abets that sort of behaviour.

But if fans are standing in their thousands anyway what difference would it make?

[LJS]

The Premier League have said that modern stadia have improved the match day experience for the majority of fans and I reckon they have that right. The demographic profile of fans has changed a fair bit over the years and consists largely of families and middle class supporters who have been, in part, attracted by 'modern football'. Perhaps those described by some, wrongly in my view as no type of football fan should really be considered as more legitimate than another, as real fans are now in the minority? It is this group of fans who seem more passionately in favour of a return to standing, partly due to nostalgia and partly because they've seen it work elsewhere.

I'd describe myself as one of the middle class section these days. I like to sit to watch football and I don't like to sing. I want to watch the football and go home. I'm not interested in the 'fan culture' aspect of it all. But I do think, provided it can be made safe as it would seem it can, people should be given the option to support their club in a different way to that which suits me. If it comes in and improves atmosphere then that's great. Even if it doesn't improve the atmosphere the worst case is that people have more choice as to how they show their support. I don't see a downside.

[davieG]

But if fans are standing in their thousands anyway what difference would it make?

You don't need to convince me that's the difference, you're trying to convince people that don't want to be convinced, aren't interested in being convinced, people that have a sufficient majority in elections not to have to worry about what seemingly a minority of football fans want. Therefore those fans need to be seen to be nigh on 'perfect' and deserving.

[davieG]

The Premier League have said that modern stadia have improved the match day experience for the majority of fans and I reckon they have that right. The demographic profile of fans has changed a fair bit over the years and consists largely of families and middle class supporters who have been, in part, attracted by 'modern football'. Perhaps those described by some, wrongly in my view as no type of football fan should really be considered as more legitimate than another, as real fans are now in the minority? It is this group of fans who seem more passionately in favour of a return to standing, partly due to nostalgia and partly because they've seen it work elsewhere.

I'd describe myself as one of the middle class section these days. I like to sit to watch football and I don't like to sing. I want to watch the football and go home. I'm not interested in the 'fan culture' aspect of it all. But I do think, provided it can be made safe as it would seem it can, people should be given the option to support their club in a different way to that which suits me. If it comes in and improves atmosphere then that's great. Even if it doesn't improve the atmosphere the worst case is that people have more choice as to how they show their support. I don't see a downside.

The reason it's changed is partly due to not having standing areas and other aspects of the 'modern matchday experience' which has driven them away.