Safe Standing - Support the Early Day motion

[Your Are My Leicester]

Hi guys and girls,

 

A couple of months ago I wrote this letter to Top and the board,

 

Dear Mr. Srivaddhanaprabha,

I've done some research on safe standing in football, I would like to show you some evidence. I asked football fans around the country on their views on safe standing in football. These are just some replies I received:

" Safe standing should be brought back because it gives fans the opportunity to experience the match how they want in an environment that is 100% safe."

" Would improve atmosphere and gives fans option of whether to sit or stand."

"Safe standing should be introduced as it has been proven to be safe, tickets are cheaper, fans love the areas, atmosphere is greatly increased and it would end the unnecessarily hostile confrontations between fans who want to sit and fans who want to stand, as well as end battles between stewards and standing fans."

" Better atmospheres will be generated with much less chance of confrontations with stewards. It provides ALL fans with a choice so will encourage fans either for or against standing at football to return again. Would also provide bigger attendances."

"I'd be against safe standing because I'd feel unsafe if there were people crammed in, so therefore I'm against safe standing."

" Safe standing shouldn't be reintroduced due to the potential of overcrowding of fans in the stand."

Of the fans who gave me there opinions I found out that 78% were for standing and 22% were against standing.

    

 

 

What is rail seating?

Rail seats - The design
Each rail seat incorporates a high back with a sturdy top rail that comes up to approximately the waist height of the spectator standing behind it.

The top rail behind each seat links firmly into the next one right along the row, thus creating a continuous, robust barrier along its full length.

Despite being called seats, their primary function is that of a waist-high rail for the spectators standing behind them and for all domestic games the seats would remain folded up (if desired / permitted by the newly drafted regulations, the seats can be locked in this position). When folded up the seats lie flush between the uprights of the frame, thus making the whole railing just a few centimetres deep and freeing up the maximum amount of space between each row of rails for standing fans and ease of access and egress for stewards and paramedics. Rail heights in Germany vary between 90 and 115cm.

 

 

Rail heights compliant with Green Guide
The minimum height required here by the Green Guide for barriers in traditional standing areas at rugby and lower league football grounds is 102cm.

There may be an argument to revise this downwards for rails in safe standing areas, as with a maximum of 2 rows of spectators between each rail, they will never be called upon to withstand the same forces as rails on ‘old-fashioned’ terracing.

Even without any such lowering of the required height, however, it can be seen from the heights in use in Germany (up to 115cm) that hi-rail seats can comfortably comply with the current minimum 102cm height requirement (110cm for new builds).

 

 

Clear space for added safety
The images on the right show a rail seat folded up (potentially locked in that position), flush between the uprights and, below, the clear space between each upright in single step configuration (i.e. one row of standing fans between each line of rail seats). The freedom of movement along such rows is significantly better for stewards and/or paramedics than along rows of 'normal' seats, which project substantially into the free space and also fall forward uncontrollably to cause an obstruction and trip hazard.

 

Stand gradients

 

The Green Guide also requires that the gradient of standing areas in stadia where these are allowed does not exceed 25 degrees.

A number of German stadia using hi-rail seats currently do so in areas of the ground with gradients of 15.3, 21.3 and 24 degrees (as pictured on the right in the 'away' fans section of the Rhein Neckar Arena, home of TSG 1899 Hoffenheim in Germany). Installation of hi-rail seats in compliance with Green Guide gradient limits is thus clearly possible.

 

 

A couple of weeks later I received a phone call off Jim basically he said the board had asked him personally to reply to my letter. He said that the board and Susan Whelan had read my letter he said that they thought it was well structured and if it was ok with me if Susan Whelan could use my letter as a reference to approve of safe standing at safe standing forums she attends, I gave them permission obviously. Do you reckon this is was one them safe standing meetings? 

[theessexfox]

 

 

A couple of weeks later I received a phone call off Jim basically he said the board had asked him personally to reply to my letter. He said that the board and Susan Whelan had read my letter he said that they thought it was well structured and if it was ok with me if Susan Whelan could use my letter as a reference to approve of safe standing at safe standing forums she attends, I gave them permission obviously. Do you reckon this is was one them safe standing meetings? 

Nice work 

[The Year Of The Fox]

Hi guys and girls,

 

A couple of months ago I wrote this letter to Top and the board,

 

Dear Mr. Srivaddhanaprabha,

I've done some research on safe standing in football, I would like to show you some evidence. I asked football fans around the country on their views on safe standing in football. These are just some replies I received:

" Safe standing should be brought back because it gives fans the opportunity to experience the match how they want in an environment that is 100% safe."

" Would improve atmosphere and gives fans option of whether to sit or stand."

"Safe standing should be introduced as it has been proven to be safe, tickets are cheaper, fans love the areas, atmosphere is greatly increased and it would end the unnecessarily hostile confrontations between fans who want to sit and fans who want to stand, as well as end battles between stewards and standing fans."

" Better atmospheres will be generated with much less chance of confrontations with stewards. It provides ALL fans with a choice so will encourage fans either for or against standing at football to return again. Would also provide bigger attendances."

"I'd be against safe standing because I'd feel unsafe if there were people crammed in, so therefore I'm against safe standing."

" Safe standing shouldn't be reintroduced due to the potential of overcrowding of fans in the stand."

Of the fans who gave me there opinions I found out that 78% were for standing and 22% were against standing.

    

 

 

What is rail seating?

Rail seats - The designEach rail seat incorporates a high back with a sturdy top rail that comes up to approximately the waist height of the spectator standing behind it.

The top rail behind each seat links firmly into the next one right along the row, thus creating a continuous, robust barrier along its full length.

Despite being called seats, their primary function is that of a waist-high rail for the spectators standing behind them and for all domestic games the seats would remain folded up (if desired / permitted by the newly drafted regulations, the seats can be locked in this position). When folded up the seats lie flush between the uprights of the frame, thus making the whole railing just a few centimetres deep and freeing up the maximum amount of space between each row of rails for standing fans and ease of access and egress for stewards and paramedics. Rail heights in Germany vary between 90 and 115cm.

Great effort

 

 

Rail heights compliant with Green GuideThe minimum height required here by the Green Guide for barriers in traditional standing areas at rugby and lower league football grounds is 102cm.

There may be an argument to revise this downwards for rails in safe standing areas, as with a maximum of 2 rows of spectators between each rail, they will never be called upon to withstand the same forces as rails on ‘old-fashioned’ terracing.

Even without any such lowering of the required height, however, it can be seen from the heights in use in Germany (up to 115cm) that hi-rail seats can comfortably comply with the current minimum 102cm height requirement (110cm for new builds).

 

 

Clear space for added safetyThe images on the right show a rail seat folded up (potentially locked in that position), flush between the uprights and, below, the clear space between each upright in single step configuration (i.e. one row of standing fans between each line of rail seats). The freedom of movement along such rows is significantly better for stewards and/or paramedics than along rows of 'normal' seats, which project substantially into the free space and also fall forward uncontrollably to cause an obstruction and trip hazard.

 

Stand gradients

 

The Green Guide also requires that the gradient of standing areas in stadia where these are allowed does not exceed 25 degrees.

A number of German stadia using hi-rail seats currently do so in areas of the ground with gradients of 15.3, 21.3 and 24 degrees (as pictured on the right in the 'away' fans section of the Rhein Neckar Arena, home of TSG 1899 Hoffenheim in Germany). Installation of hi-rail seats in compliance with Green Guide gradient limits is thus clearly possible.

 

 

A couple of weeks later I received a phone call off Jim basically he said the board had asked him personally to reply to my letter. He said that the board and Susan Whelan had read my letter he said that they thought it was well structured and if it was ok with me if Susan Whelan could use my letter as a reference to approve of safe standing at safe standing forums she attends, I gave them permission obviously. Do you reckon this is was one them safe standing meetings? 

[purpleronnie]

http://fsf.org.uk/latest-news/view/Football-League-clubs-vote-to-explore-safe-standing-trials

[Dan LCFC]

Letter is excellent and it appears to have been productive, top work.

 

Only fault I could pick was early on where you put "bring back" and I feel this is the key phrase that could turn a lot off. But later in it you seemed to cover that anyway so I'm arguably just being picky.

 

But great work. It appears Whelan is well on its side which has raised my opinion on her a hell of a lot.

[Dan LCFC]

http://fsf.org.uk/latest-news/view/Football-League-clubs-vote-to-explore-safe-standing-trials

 

It's going to happen isn't it? Excellent stuff. Genuinely am delighted that the battle for it is being won and I think clubs will look back and think "why didn't we try this sooner".

 

If there's no safe standing within 3 years then I'll actually be amazed and it's unlike me to be optimsitic where the footballing authorities are involved.

[purpleronnie]

Apparantly bristol city are unveiling plans for their redeveloped ground which may well include safe standing as its going to be used with the rugby team, if that happens it will be interesting to see how they steward/police the rugby compared to the football in these safe standing areas.

 

But as these redevelopments seem to take so long in England it may never happen.

 

But as far as safe standing goes its certainly pushed its way to the forefront and opened a lot of peoples eyes.

 

Guess we'll see.

[Harry - LCFC]

@The_FSF Well done Wycombe Wanderers, 25th club to back Safe Standing Campaign: http://bit.ly/1c2LACo  @wwfcofficial @WWISC1994

 

Indeed, well done Wycombe! 

[purpleronnie]

Interesting article about standing at cardiff:-

http://www.fsf.org.uk/blog/view/Cardiff-City-s-incredible-journey-by-Dr-Steve-Frosdick

 

Not safe standing but allowing fans to stand.  TBH I'd be happy if every ground did this.  At least fans would know they wouldnt get hassle from stewards.

[Simmo86]

Green Brigade section at Celtic Park shut due to persistent standing.

As much as I dislike Celtic, thats a shocker!

[purpleronnie]

Green Brigade section at Celtic Park shut due to persistent standing.

As much as I dislike Celtic, thats a shocker!

I knew they had problems with other things in that section but standing never seemed to be an issue.  It doesnt seem to be one in other scottish stadiums.

 

makes me think its the other problems they had would be the reason but had to use standing as an excuse to shut it.  I reckon it will be temporary and fans will be allowed back and allowed to stand if other issues sorted out.

 

My only concern is that this news spreads and some other clubs decide to follow suit.

Edited 6 August 2013 by purpleronnie

[The Year Of The Fox]

Interesting article about standing at cardiff:-

http://www.fsf.org.uk/blog/view/Cardiff-City-s-incredible-journey-by-Dr-Steve-Frosdick

 

Not safe standing but allowing fans to stand.  TBH I'd be happy if every ground did this.  At least fans would know they wouldnt get hassle from stewards.

A massive big up to Cardiff there. How have they found a loophole though that says it's not illegal? Is it because they're ran by the Welsh FA?

[Harry - LCFC]

I didn't think standing at a football match was illegal tbh. It's against club policy to stand so it's up to the stewards to deal with it, if they choose not to then there's no problem.

[purpleronnie]

A massive big up to Cardiff there. How have they found a loophole though that says it's not illegal? Is it because they're ran by the Welsh FA?

I know that in scotland they carry out seperate safety reports in sections where they allow fans to stand.  Maybe they have done this in that section too, I guess as long as they deem it safe then its ok with the council?

[The Year Of The Fox]

I know that in scotland they carry out seperate safety reports in sections where they allow fans to stand.  Maybe they have done this in that section too, I guess as long as they deem it safe then its ok with the council?

I dont know! Where's bilo gone?!

Surely if it was as simple as that then every club would utilise this 'loophole' in that they'd advertise the area in question when selling tickets.

I don't think itll be quite as clear cut as what you say.

[purpleronnie]

I dont know! Where's bilo gone?!

Surely if it was as simple as that then every club would utilise this 'loophole' in that they'd advertise the area in question when selling tickets.

I don't think itll be quite as clear cut as what you say.

 

Well its scotland so they may have different safety regulations than here, Ibut I know for definate one particular scottish club does carry out seperate safety reports for the standing section.

 

As far as cardiff I don't know but as long as the club and council are ok with it then it seems ok, most clubs have areas where fans stand so dont bother with extra reports and i'm sure most councils dont really care either.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

I didn't think standing at a football match was illegal tbh. It's against club policy to stand so it's up to the stewards to deal with it, if they choose not to then there's no problem.

Health and safety issues.

[Harry - LCFC]

This recent scenario strongly lends itself to the case for introducing safe standing. If the chaps in charge are most concerned about safety then it's just plain silly to allow people to stand in seated areas but not allow the introduction of safer (yes, safer) standing areas.

 

 

Health and safety issues.

 

Ah sorry, when I said "no problem" I meant the club are free to do this if they want to because there aren't any laws stopping them (I think). But yes of course

I agree there are dangers that go with standing in a seated area and that is an issue. I'd like to place that responsibility on the individual though - people know what they're getting into by standing, they should realise they could get hurt by doing so.

Edited 7 August 2013 by Harry - LCFC

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

This recent scenario strongly lends itself to the case for introducing safe standing. If the chaps in charge are most concerned about safety then it's just plain silly to allow people to stand in seated areas but not allow the introduction of safer (yes, safer) standing areas.

 

 

 

Ah sorry, when I said "no problem" I meant the club are free to do this if they want to because there aren't any laws stopping them (I think). But yes of course

I agree there are dangers that go with standing in a seated area and that is an issue. I'd like to place that responsibility on the individual though - people know what they're getting into by standing, they should realise they could get hurt by doing so.

Agreed. 

[The Year Of The Fox]

Oh did anyone see Jon Darch's tweet the other day?

Ashton Gate is to be fitted with rail seats- in the up position when whatever rugby team play there and in the down position when Bristol City play there.

Very ludicrous but a small step in the right direction nonetheless.

[purpleronnie]

As most thought Celtic have now opened the section again to the GB, a huge own goal by celtic to close the section.  The GB have support from all the fans and the manager and players, GB stood their ground and won, a great day for the ultra scene in scotland that continues to grow.

[Bilo]

A SAG (Safety Advisory Group) only has the right to close a section if there is clear evidence of the manner in which it is being managed is detrimental to the safety of supporters. As there is little evidence of standing being unsafe, mainly because it isn't, a section has NEVER been closed in the UK due to persistent standing, nor has it had its capacity reduced due to persistent standing. 

 

A club would have the right to sue for damages if this were to happen owing to inconsistencies in the way in which regulations are enforced, note regulations rather than laws, across the country. What might be considered unacceptable in terms of practice regarding standers by Reading's SAG might very easily pass at Crystal Palace's SAG for example. 

 

I've said before and I'll say again, the legal onus is on the club to provide all-seated accommodation for its spectators. There is no legal obligation to force all fans to sit, nor is there any legal obligation upon the fan to sit down. Legally, the King Power Stadium could have 32,000 fans standing in front of their seat for 90 minutes and no law would be broken. 

 

The problem, ultimately, is that standing is associated with poor behaviour. I note the article stated that;

 

 

 

Unsafe "lateral movement of spectators" and "body surfing" was also highlighted, along with damage to 190 seats in the area over the last four home matches.

 

However, it is worth pointing out that in a safe standing area that none of the above would be an issue. Lateral movement of spectators is controlled within safe standing areas and the nature of the rail seating arrangement precludes 'body surfing.' In addition, the heavy steel seats are far more sturdy than the plastic ones used at Celtic Park and other British stadia. One stadium manager, I think at Hannover, stated he hadn't had to replace a seat in 10 years in the safe standing section. The answer should be obvious.

 

Congratulations to the Green Brigade and indeed to the wider Celtic supporter base, the only way we're going to get what we want is by sticking together. It appears that this message is slowly but surely making its way south of the border.

Edited 23 August 2013 by Bilo

[1964FOX]

It is not illegal to stand at a football match that is a fact. Ground regulations are established and enforced by each individual club from guidelines issued by various organisations. Most clubs just reprint an enforce the template guidelines.

Cardiff have clearly presented a good argument to vary the guidelines in a safe and well managed way hence they can do it without any authority making a fuss it's as simple as that.

Well done Cardiff.

More clubs will follow and this should lead the way to the introduction of rail seating, it's an important first step towards change.

[purpleronnie]

Another article.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/the-last-word-as-painful-as-hillsborough-remains-its-time-to-reclaim-lost-spirit-of-the-terraces-8815918.html?origin=internalSearch

 

The Last Word: As painful as Hillsborough remains, it’s time to reclaim lost spirit of the terraces

     

     

     

     

 

     

 

 

 

Suggested Topics

 

We have reflected once again this week on the legacies of Hillsborough a year after an independent panel exposed a top-level cover-up over England’s worst stadium disaster.

Unfortunately for the families of the 96 Liverpool fans who died at that fateful FA Cup semi-final in April 1989, the painstaking inquiry into alleged police misconduct is stymied in inaction or, at the very best, inertia.

While the relatives of the victims cannot move on without the requisite justice, the tragedy is also holding back a wider debate about safe standing.

The very notion of any reintroduction of standing is abhorrent to those directly affected by Hillsborough and this is understandable. It is a highly emotive issue. But we are not talking about a wholesale return to the bad old days when unregulated terraces allowed pockets of hooliganism to fester like sores on the game. The safe standing lobby, spearheaded by the Football Supporters’ Federation (FSF), is targeting 10 to 20 per cent of capacity at most.

The campaign, which is growing in momentum and could soon be introduced at Celtic after the Scottish Premier League sanctioned pilot schemes, is at its most basic a consumer-driven response.

Not all fans want to watch football the same way. Clubs are not serving the needs of all their customers if they insist everyone sits still for 90 minutes when a small, but significant, number would prefer to stand, sing and shout. It’s just bad business.

The truth is that many fans are out of their seats for large parts of the match anyway. “Persistent standing†is the bane of stewards’ lives up and down the country. Some clubs are more successful at policing it than others. Some have just accepted it as a fact of life. Cardiff City’s “singing sections†are an acknowledgement that standing is tolerated in designated areas despite the fact it is officially forbidden. Since 1994, following a change in legislation in response to Hillsborough and the subsequent Taylor Report, all clubs in the Premier League and the Championship must have all-seater stadiums.

It is not illegal for spectators to stand but, under a civil contract they effectively sign by buying a ticket, they can be thrown out. At Cardiff, they aren’t. It is a stance supported by the council after a club-commissioned study by Dr Steve Frosdick, an expert in crowd dynamics, concluded it would not compromise safety and might even improve it.

It would be an interesting test case if the Sports Ground Safety Authority (SGSA), a quango, challenged Cardiff’s interpretation of the law. Equally, if the SGSA lets it slide, it sets a precedent for others such as Aston Villa, Hull City and Crystal Palace, the only other Premier League clubs to publicly back the FSF’s safe standing campaign.

As English football fans gaze enviously at Germany, where ticket prices are lower, atmospheres feel less corporate and the national team does not continually disappoint, it has not gone unnoticed that safe standing is a prominent feature.

Rail seats, which flip up for domestic games and lock down to comply with rules in the Champions League, are a popular innovation. Why not try them here?

Cardiff’s experiment has not resulted in more disorderly behaviour, a commonly cited counter-argument. The club earned the title of most family-friendly in the Football League last season.

As Superintendent Steven Graham, match day commander at the West Midlands Police and a proponent of safe standing, said: “If you put a decent person on a terrace, they’re a decent person. If you put someone with criminal intent in a seated area, they’re someone with criminal intent... To say that just because you put someone in a standing area, they will misbehave, is fundamentally wrong.â€

In the long shadow cast by Hillsborough, it would be a brave government that amended the law only to have a major incident. Hugh Robertson, the sports minister, backed by the English leagues, prefers the status quo while pointing out that seated stadiums have improved the overall fan experience.

A lot has changed in football since the 1980s, however, and the game has thrived as a result. Resisting calls for safe standing trials runs contrary to the Premier League’s evolutionary ethos, which has underpinned its success.

There is an opportunity to reclaim the disenfranchised by reinventing some of the lost spirit of the terraces, minus the criminality, and democratising the match-day experience through increased capacity and lower prices. The memories of Hillsborough, as awful as they are, should not stand in the way of progress.

 

[C-man]

Thank God a journo has had the courage of his conviction to say it. We all know that the HSG are the stumbling block, but it's such an emotive issue you can't help but tread carefully. It would take a very brave and patient man to sit down with the group and explain everything thoroughly and how what is being suggested could actually improve safety at games.