Safe Standing - Support the Early Day motion

[C-man]

Why do you say that?

I think that'd be about right though. Most people want to sit so I wouldn't strip out too many seats. Although I imagine standing would become more fashionable over time as more people realise it's safe and that it can be a good experience.

Also, I thought it was 1.8 standing spaces per seat. Not sure where I heard that from though.

1.8 is the maximum limit that they use in a few grounds in Germany, the majority use 1.5-1.6.

In my opinion the best place to do it at Filbert Way would be the bottom half of the Kop, up to say, the vomitories. Then a few rows would need to be stripped out so that there are no sightline issues for those sat behind. Number of practical benefits to this:

1) Fans standing behind the goal can help 'suck it in'

2) Fairly sure the way the ground is constructed means it would be impossible to introduce it at the top end of a stand.

3) Shifts fans away from L1 so that police costs fall. The police are unlikely to sanction a bigger standing area next to away fans.

4) Tickets are cheaper for seats behind a goal than in L1 so the club takes less of a 'hit' when prices are dropped for a standing place.

5) I'm reliably informed that it's cheaper to put in fewer but longer rows of the seats than more rows in one block, let's say. Stretching this across the whole 'lower' Kop would be a good way to achieve this.

Makes me laugh when people say 'but people like to sit in the Kop'. People need to wake up and realise that they may have to move for a greater cause than their personal view of a football pitch.

[Kitchandro]

1.8 is the maximum limit that they use in a few grounds in Germany, the majority use 1.5-1.6.

In my opinion the best place to do it at Filbert Way would be the bottom half of the Kop, up to say, the vomitories. Then a few rows would need to be stripped out so that there are no sightline issues for those sat behind. Number of practical benefits to this:

1) Fans standing behind the goal can help 'suck it in'

2) Fairly sure the way the ground is constructed means it would be impossible to introduce it at the top end of a stand.

3) Shifts fans away from L1 so that police costs fall. The police are unlikely to sanction a bigger standing area next to away fans.

4) Tickets are cheaper for seats behind a goal than in L1 so the club takes less of a 'hit' when prices are dropped for a standing place.

5) I'm reliably informed that it's cheaper to put in fewer but longer rows of the seats than more rows in one block, let's say. Stretching this across the whole 'lower' Kop would be a good way to achieve this.

Makes me laugh when people say 'but people like to sit in the Kop'. People need to wake up and realise that they may have to move for a greater cause than their personal view of a football pitch.

How come?

[yorkie1999]

If they brought safe standing in It would not be in the east stand because they would have to do the whole stand which also means everyone in that stand would have to sit down. The only places is behind the goals or in the corners

Edited 10 April 2013 by yorkie1999

[Mike the Metal Ed]

How come?

Probably something to do with the gradient of the stand, to my untrained eye, the south stand seems to be curved so that the seats nearer ground level are at a shallower gradient. Having two blocks of standing right behind the goal a la the Allianz would be excellent, anyway.

Edited 10 April 2013 by Mike the Metal Ed

[C-man]

Probably something to do with the gradient of the stand, to my untrained eye, the south stand seems to be curved so that the seats nearer ground level are at a less shallow gradient. Having two blocks of standing right behind the goal a la the Allianz would be excellent, anyway.

I'm no architect either but I seem to remember certain H&S bods say that concerts couldn't be held because of the lack of support (as in suspension, not fans, even if equally applicable) in the stands.

I'm also guessing (with my extremely limited science knowledge) that the closer to the ground you are, the more weight you can take at a certain level of support.

May be talking rubbish but I think they'd have to spend shed loads reinforcing the whole stand if they tried to stick a standing area at the top.

[flowwolf]

Are you still choosing to ignore the numerous posts and articles that show you what safe standing is, and how this kind of thing is stopped?

Are you still choosing to say the same thing over and over ?. None of the articles or the video have any proof what so ever that it is a safe system to impliment in this country. Not one club has installed them or even been given permission to try them out. Not one club has asked the fans shall we try it ?

Edited 10 April 2013 by flowwolf

[flowwolf]

If you take into consideration those who have publically come out in support and those already with standing areas its over half of the 72 league clubs.

Plus it starts with the fans, its up to them to try and get their club to either support it or invite the safe standing roadshow.

I'm sure many other clubs would support it if the fans took some initiative.

Sorry ronnie but clubs take no notice of fans. we are an anoyance nothing more. As has been shown by the ridiculous pandering to Sky changing the game times and dates at will. And again I ask are the pro standing fans going to foot the bill for ripping out seats to be replace with those bloody awful standing sitting down lock up things ? Because you can bet your life the club won't.

[theessexfox]

Are you still choosing to say the same thing over and over ?.

Well... yes, as you and your fellow dimwits insist upon commenting idiotic nonsense on a topic that you haven't sufficiently read up on...

[Bilo]

Sorry ronnie but clubs take no notice of fans. we are an anoyance nothing more. As has been shown by the ridiculous pandering to Sky changing the game times and dates at will. And again I ask are the pro standing fans going to foot the bill for ripping out seats to be replace with those bloody awful standing sitting down lock up things ? Because you can bet your life the club won't.

Used them a lot have you?

The club would pay and would derive profit from doing so, as has been the case in pretty much every ground in the Bundesliga.

[Leicesterpool]

1.8 is the maximum limit that they use in a few grounds in Germany, the majority use 1.5-1.6.

In my opinion the best place to do it at Filbert Way would be the bottom half of the Kop, up to say, the vomitories. Then a few rows would need to be stripped out so that there are no sightline issues for those sat behind. Number of practical benefits to this:

1) Fans standing behind the goal can help 'suck it in'

2) Fairly sure the way the ground is constructed means it would be impossible to introduce it at the top end of a stand.

3) Shifts fans away from L1 so that police costs fall. The police are unlikely to sanction a bigger standing area next to away fans.

4) Tickets are cheaper for seats behind a goal than in L1 so the club takes less of a 'hit' when prices are dropped for a standing place.

5) I'm reliably informed that it's cheaper to put in fewer but longer rows of the seats than more rows in one block, let's say. Stretching this across the whole 'lower' Kop would be a good way to achieve this.

Makes me laugh when people say 'but people like to sit in the Kop'. People need to wake up and realise that they may have to move for a greater cause than their personal view of a football pitch.

To be fair I like the banter between L1 & the away fans, if you move that lot from there, then it would kill the atmosphere. Also as Jobber as mentioned in the past the atmosphere from fans in the kop is different to the east stand. Most of the fans in the kop just like to sit and watch the game and join in the odd chant while the east stand like to watch the game, create a little banter and stand. To be honest i can't see many regulars in the kop being happy with the idea of standing for ninety minutes.

[Voll Blau]

Some unbelieavble ignorance still flying around in this read. C-man's nailed the benefits. I'd defy anyone to argue against what he's said.

[Kitchandro]

To be fair I like the banter between L1 & the away fans, if you move that lot from there, then it would kill the atmosphere. Also as Jobber as mentioned in the past the atmosphere from fans in the kop is different to the east stand. Most of the fans in the kop just like to sit and watch the game and join in the odd chant while the east stand like to watch the game, create a little banter and stand. To be honest i can't see many regulars in the kop being happy with the idea of standing for ninety minutes.

Then they'll have to move won't they!

Jesus it's not like the ground offers numerous different perspectives depending on where you sit. There's an identical stand at the other end.

It won't kill the atmosphere, because there isn't any. Instead of singers being spread out around the ground, almost everyone who wants to stand or sing will just move to the Kop. Maybe the literal unity will inspire some spiritual and vocal unity, which is badly needed.

Maybe we'll thrive by not relying on some piss poor away support and a drum. Who knows, maybe some of the older lot will come back to experience a proper Kop like they knew in the old days.

Edited 11 April 2013 by Kitchandro

[flowwolf]

Used them a lot have you?

The club would pay and would derive profit from doing so, as has been the case in pretty much every ground in the Bundesliga.

Used them a lot yourself have you ? So the club would pay would they ? I presume you have had some sort of personal assurance from the club on that matter or you would not be so crass as to make that statement.

The Bundesliga did not have a Hysel or a Hillsborough to go on. Any sort of comparison to our leagues and theirs is ridiculous , but then again I suppose the hypothesis shown in relation to this mythical safe standing bollocks is also ridiclous.

[Mike the Metal Ed]

Used them a lot yourself have you ? So the club would pay would they ? I presume you have had some sort of personal assurance from the club on that matter or you would not be so crass as to make that statement.

The Bundesliga did not have a Hysel or a Hillsborough to go on. Any sort of comparison to our leagues and theirs is ridiculous , but then again I suppose the hypothesis shown in relation to this mythical safe standing bollocks is also ridiclous.

Anderlecht, Genk and Antwerp fans can freely stand... why was standing never outlawed in Belgium? Unless of course the government of the day overreacted and decided to use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut and standing was unfairly scapegoated.

Sunderland had terracing in the Premier League as recently as 1997, and Fulham in 2002, and this isn't even with the model of terracing we're discussing, but an older, allegedly inferior model, so why did nobody die or get badly injured in the combined 38 fixtures that took place in those respective seasons?

Edited 11 April 2013 by Mike the Metal Ed

[flowwolf]

Anderlecht, Genk and Antwerp fans can freely stand... why was standing never outlawed in Belgium? Unless of course the government of the day overreacted and decided to use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut and standing was unfairly scapegoated.

Sunderland had terracing in the Premier League as recently as 1997, and Fulham in 2002, and this isn't even with the model of terracing we're discussing, but an older, allegedly inferior model, so why did nobody die or get badly injured in the combined 38 fixtures that took place in those respective seasons?

Are you saying that what happened at Hilsborough was an over reaction? And we are not Belgium are we? Our fans are unique in their stupidity so you can't compare us to anyone else.

[Mike the Metal Ed]

I'm saying the hooliganism of the 80s was a bugbear of the sitting government, and the Hillsborough Football Disaster gave them the perfect excuse to change the way supporters were handled, mostly to our detriment as law-abiding fans who just want to follow our club. While changes were desperately needed, the infrastructure at Sheffield Wednesday at the time was appalling, and many clubs needed to reinforce poorly maintained, 60-80 year old stands. The legislative changes were too extreme. Even the Taylor Report said that standing is "not intrinsically unsafe". This form of standing area is even safer than the well-maintained standing sections we currently have, because, as pointed out, it eliminates the ability to surge. Combined with the more rigorous safety inspections now carried out on all seated and standing areas, there is now no problem with giving our fans this choice back.

Your view on English football supporters, too, seems quite outdated. Please provide hard figures (and not isolated cases of major hooliganism that can be counted on one hand in the last decade) that proves that "our fans are unique in their stupidity".

Edited 11 April 2013 by Mike the Metal Ed

[indierich06]

Are you saying that what happened at Hilsborough was an over reaction?

Yes, completely. Standing itself was not the reason for the Hillsborough Tragedy, it was a one off caused by poor policing and non-existent management of the fans in the stadium, allowing them all to pour into a single pen. There's nothing intrinsically dangerous about standing at football matches - it carried on after Hillsborough and was the complete norm before it.

This new system, combined with infinitely better stewarding and policing at football matches would mean there will never be another Hillsborough. Instead, now we have the situation where people stand at games anyway, either on unsafe terraces or in seating areas, which is actually far more dangerous than the new safe standing system would ever be. Safe standing is the logical answer to make sure that what happened at Hillsborough never happens again.

[whoareyaaa]

Are you saying that what happened at Hilsborough was an over reaction? And we are not Belgium are we? Our fans are unique in their stupidity so you can't compare us to anyone else.

Everything you have said in this thread is absolute utter garbage.

Hilsborough was a one off incident - there was no safe standing in the ground at the time so why are you even comparing this?

and as someone else stated there hasn't been any major disasters before or since then. ****ing dumb idiot.

[davieG]

Yes, completely. Standing itself was not the reason for the Hillsborough Tragedy, it was a one off caused by poor policing and non-existent management of the fans in the stadium, allowing them all to pour into a single pen. There's nothing intrinsically dangerous about standing at football matches - it carried on after Hillsborough and was the complete norm before it.

This new system, combined with infinitely better stewarding and policing at football matches would mean there will never be another Hillsborough. Instead, now we have the situation where people stand at games anyway, either on unsafe terraces or in seating areas, which is actually far more dangerous than the new safe standing system would ever be. Safe standing is the logical answer to make sure that what happened at Hillsborough never happens again.

Not forgetting the fences a major contribution to so many deaths.

[theessexfox]

Used them a lot yourself have you ? So the club would pay would they ? I presume you have had some sort of personal assurance from the club on that matter or you would not be so crass as to make that statement.

The Bundesliga did not have a Hysel or a Hillsborough to go on. Any sort of comparison to our leagues and theirs is ridiculous , but then again I suppose the hypothesis shown in relation to this mythical safe standing bollocks is also ridiclous.

as you're totally aware, Hillsborough wasn't safe standing, and with safe standing incidents like Hillsborough are IMPOSSIBLE.

Anyway, there's no reason why it shouldn't be implemented, but what are people's realistic hopes for the future of Safe Standing?

[indierich06]

as you're totally aware, Hillsborough wasn't safe standing, and with safe standing incidents like Hillsborough are IMPOSSIBLE.

Anyway, there's no reason why it shouldn't be implemented, but what are people's realistic hopes for the future of Safe Standing?

I think it'll be introduced eventually, but it'll take a long, long time to get it all sorted. It could do with more publicity and backing from big names in football though.

[indierich06]

Our fans are unique in their stupidity so you can't compare us to anyone else.

Can you please look at the rail seating and explain to us exactly how anything like Hillsborough could possibly happen if this system was implemented, not just vague nonsense - I want to hear the mechanics of how crushing or stampeding would occur when each row of spectators is separated by a metal bar.

[flowwolf]

Everything you have said in this thread is absolute utter garbage.

Hilsborough was a one off incident - there was no safe standing in the ground at the time so why are you even comparing this?

and as someone else stated there hasn't been any major disasters before or since then. ****ing dumb idiot.

Are you forgetting Hysel aswell how convenient. Both Hilsborough and Hysel disasters would never have happened if they had been all seater stadiums fact. By the way do you always end your child like rants with abuse ? be careful your wearing your inteligence on your sleeve.

[theessexfox]

Are you forgetting Hysel aswell how convenient. Both Hilsborough and Hysel disasters would never have happened if they had been all seater stadiums fact. By the way do you always end your child like rants with abuse ? be careful your wearing your inteligence on your sleeve.

Nor would they happened if SAFE ****ING STANDING was in place, which is what this thread is about.

[whoareyaaa]

Are you forgetting Hysel aswell how convenient. Both Hilsborough and Hysel disasters would never have happened if they had been all seater stadiums fact. By the way do you always end your child like rants with abuse ? be careful your wearing your inteligence on your sleeve.

it would help if you could actually spell intelligence correctly.

What is the point of discussing something with you when you clearly have no idea, i'm surprised you can even string a sentence together with your complete lack of common sense.