Public opinion and the politics of immigration

[Guest MattP]

yes i agree , but i sense a change in attitudes towards discussing immigration in the last few years . it seems it's no longer off limits to express concern about it, and the risk of being labelled a racist seems less.

It's just an observation and opinion based on forums such as this though .   

 

It's incredible when you actually read that sentence back isn't it? For a country with free speech.

 

It still makes me laugh how all peoples principles go out of the window when it comes to this sort of thing, even the most hardline lefties would rather support policy that helps the rich get richer and the poor get poorer rather than even dare to oppose something that may see them slandered as racist.

[Zingari]

It's incredible when you actually read that sentence back isn't it? For a country with free speech.

 

It still makes me laugh how all peoples principles go out of the window when it comes to this sort of thing, even the most hardline lefties would rather support policy that helps the rich get richer and the poor get poorer rather than even dare to oppose something that may see them slandered as racist.

yes that is so true , we as a society really must regard free speech as paramount, regardless of how distasteful it may seem sometimes

I know we'd all like to draw lines about this that and the other , but those lines seem to close in on us.

 

i only found out a year or so back that "holocaust denial" was a criminal offence in some countries  .( i think we've refused people entry to the UK for this reason)

Surely everyone still has a right to challenge historical evidence and not just accept it happened exactly as it's been told .

I'm not saying i don't believe it, but every part of history should always be subject to public scrutiny and not off limits .  

[Guest MattP]

yes that is so true , we as a society really must regard free speech as paramount, regardless of how distasteful it may seem sometimes

I know we'd all like to draw lines about this that and the other , but those lines seem to close in on us.

 

i only found out a year or so back that "holocaust denial" was a criminal offence in some countries  .( i think we've refused people entry to the UK for this reason)

Surely everyone still has a right to challenge historical evidence and not just accept it happened exactly as it's been told .

I'm not saying i don't believe it, but every part of history should always be subject to public scrutiny and not off limits .  

 

Free speech is long gone over here, freedom of thought can land you in jail and that's next on the list.

 

Holocaust deniers will be refused (not only a criminal offence but can land you a long time in prison), even worse we refused Gert Wilders and Robert Spencer on the basis they may 'offend Islam', one had made a film that was widely regarded as factual and the other is considered a moderate Jew in America who has spent his whole life studying the history of Muslims.

 

Can you ever imagine someone being refused a VISA for the UK on the basis they might "offend Christianity or Hinduism?"

 

Of course the real reason wasnt that they would offend Islam, they did it because they knew the trouble it would cause on the streets, Christians and Hindus don't kick off and threatened to chop off peoples head off so things like the Jerry Springer Opera are fair game. (and quite rightly).

[ADK]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25181501

 

I think the whole EU movement of labour thing is terrible for our own unskilled workers.

[Harry - LCFC]

Didn't Nick Griffin say he had his doubts over whether the holocaust took place or not? Seem to remember a lot of very unhappy faces when he said that on Question Time but no-one was calling for a prison sentence were they?

[Captain...]

I'm saying people should explore all the options available to them. I'm sure there's a lovely niche with a reasonable standard of living just waiting for an enterprising Brit to exploit. The reason the Conservatives used to be very (as opposed to marginally) pro-EU is because building borders and restricting movement restricts opportunities, right?

 

Doing a TEFL course is a great way to get out the country and do soemthing useful and it is almost guaranteed work in most of Southern Europe, and I would reccomend it to anyone who has found themselves out of work. Incidentally while I was doing it in Spain I did a lot english test for people applying for government grants to work in another country, mostly people who were out of work and saw it as a way to get a job, as opposed to scrounging off the state actually working for a state handout, would like to see more people in the UK do that.

 

 

This is just madness Mike.

 

We have a lower unemployment rate than pretty much any other European nation, how can it benefit our people to enter into a pact with countries like Spain, Greece and Romania that have youth employment rates of upto 40%, how is that possibly going to benefit us in the long term?

 

You might be prepared to lower wages, standards of living and the chance of a succesful for life for British people so 'everyone wherever they live can get a chance' but I and a lot wouldn't be, I'd look after my own people first and I make no apology for that.

 

By that comment you may as well open the borders to the whole World.

 

What are "your own people Matt"?

 

Are all people not people and worth looking after, and if by having open trade relationships with poorer countries like Romania and Bulgaria we can pull them up to the same standards we have in western Europe, is that not worth it? To be honest your not normally too worried about your own people when you are slagging them off as scroungers and dole scum.

 

You take nationality out of it, employing a Bulgarian on minimum wage in the UK could see a whole family pulled out of poverty in Bulgaria,  giving the same job to one of these scroungers you bang on about will just seem him waste all his money on fags and booze, in terms of the greater good I know which one I would prefer.

 

 *takes off antagonistic liberal hat and puts away fishing rod*

 

Anyway, the real problem is we don't know where we stand, all the figures are manipulated, our "higher employment" is a sham as a large proportion of those in employment are still claiming a lot in benefits, our recovery has been massaged so it looks a lot better than it is, and too many people with agendas are influencing opinion for their own gain.

 

We have no idea what the impact will be of open borders with Bulgaria and Romania, but those who really wanted to live here are most likely already here as they weren't banned from coming over, just tighter restrictions. Most prior immigration estimates have been grossly over inflated compared to reality and most statistics show immigrants don't actually claim a lot of benefits. That is not to say that I think they should be allowed to and I have no problem with Cameron's proposed changes to immigrants claiming benefits, I'm surprised they are not stricter, and don't think they should only apply to Bulgarians and Romanians.

 

Really, though, I see this as a massive smokescreen because immigrants claiming benefits is not that big a problem and as a proportion it is quite small, according to the Telegraph there are currently less than 50,000 eastern europeans (from 8 countries) currently claiming benefits in the UK, out 1.5million in total, we have much bigger problems, like the 1.5million total, but this is a vote winner so is getting a lot more press, because people's fears have been stoked up.

[ADK]

I think the "immigrants claiming benefits" is a bit of a strawman anyway. The real issue is immigrants taking jobs away from English people.

[Webbo]

It depends on what you count as benefits, a Romanian men with two children at home coming over here to work can claim child benefit for his kids to be sent home and that would give him a better than average weekly wage in Romania before you even count his wages.

[Captain...]

I was basing my figures on the telegraph article, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10271855/Number-of-foreign-nationals-on-benefits-soars-to-400000.html

 

Cameron's proposed changes to how Bulgarians and Romanians can claim, really does seem like it will have a minimal effect as it is only targetting what will be a very small percentage of foreign claimants.

 

As for they are taking our jobs, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter who does the job as long as it gets done and as long as successful applicants are hired based on ability alone, and not by doing the job for cheaper, then it is hard to complain (admittedly I do when it comes to foreigners in the premiership, but again that is largely down to them being cheaper) if someone has come over to this country, learnt the language and shown themselves to be better suited than any native applicants to a job, unskilled or otherwise, then fair play to them. What I don't agree with is them working for less than minimum wage as it is illegal, but that is a separate issue.

[ADK]

What is someone of low ability supposed to do though if they cannot get a job?

[Captain...]

What is someone of low ability supposed to do though if they cannot get a job?

 

What is low ability? Lets be honest most unskilled jobs are employed based on personality and attitude not ability. Pretty much anyone can stack shelves, clean, pull a pint or do data entry work. Most employers look for someone with the right attitude and that they think they would get on with. Even in skilled jobs that is a massive factor.

 

So someone of low ability should do 1 of 2 things, change their attitude or learn a skill, or both.

 

Considering the importance of communication, for a native English person to lose out on a job to someone who speaks English as a second language, then there really has to be something wrong with the native.

 

 (why do you think it took Lamby so long to find a job?)

[bovril]

I'm saying people should explore all the options available to them. I'm sure there's a lovely niche with a reasonable standard of living just waiting for an enterprising Brit to exploit. The reason the Conservatives used to be very (as opposed to marginally) pro-EU is because building borders and restricting movement restricts opportunities, right?

 

Interesting statistic I was told last week by someone working at the British embassy in Sofia - 35,000 Bulgarians living in UK (0.05% of the population) and 18,000 Brits living in Bulgaria (0.3%).

Leaving aside the advantages and disadvantaged of immigration (and as I said before the disadvantages for Bulgaria are much more than for the UK), Bulgarians and Romanians have always been free to work in the UK, just like anybody from any country if they really want to. There are a lot of spheres of industry, agriculture, food processing etc where the transitional controls don't even apply. From the 1st of January nothing much will be different.

[MooseBreath]

Funny how quickly these so called socialists will abandon their "help the poor" stance when presented with an opportunity to show how gosh darn internationally cultured and thoroughly not racist they are. Ten minutes ago they were banging on about how unemployment is awful and everyone should do less hours so more people can work, now they're saying its fine to flood the low-skilled market with yet more ultra-cheap imported labour.

Typical one-dimensional, fickle as fvck liberals. "I'm in favour of whatever I think makes me sound coolest today, even if it completely contradicts what I said yesterday".

Wonderful stuff.

[Jon the Hat]

Funny how quickly these so called socialists will abandon their "help the poor" stance when presented with an opportunity to show how gosh darn internationally cultured and thoroughly not racist they are. Ten minutes ago they were banging on about how unemployment is awful and everyone should do less hours so more people can work, now they're saying its fine to flood the low-skilled market with yet more ultra-cheap imported labour.

Typical one-dimensional, fickle as fvck liberals. "I'm in favour of whatever I think makes me sound coolest today, even if it completely contradicts what I said yesterday".

Wonderful stuff.

 

Wow.  You are making a huge and probably misguided assumption there.  You really think people recognise that they hold contradictory views?

[DennisNedry]

'If we can pull Romania and Bulgaria up to the same standards as Western Europe'

 

At the expense of lowering our standards?

[Captain...]

'If we can pull Romania and Bulgaria up to the same standards as Western Europe'

 

At the expense of lowering our standards?

 

How much have our standards lowered since the influx from Poland and other eastern european countries?

 

But yes, why not? Is that not the point of them joining the EU to help them progress and become developed countries? If we have to take a hit economically to help them get there, isn't that better in the long run as we would be much stronger as a collective?

[Webbo]

How much have our standards lowered since the influx from Poland and other eastern european countries?

 

But yes, why not? Is that not the point of them joining the EU to help them progress and become developed countries? If we have to take a hit economically to help them get there, isn't that better in the long run as we would be much stronger as a collective?

When you can't pay your mortgage it's no good telling the bank manager that Romania is much better off now, he's not interested. Your priority should always be you and your own family first.

[Guest MattP]

When you can't pay your mortgage it's no good telling the bank manager that Romania is much better off now, he's not interested. Your priority should always be you and your own family first.

Don't worry the people who laud things like mass unskilled immigration generally don't have issues like the one you mention.

Go and ask an unemployed youth in Boston if he thinks our standards haven't dropped...

It's people like Polly Toynbee etc who will look the working class straight in the eye claiming to be in it together before flying of to her villa in Italy.

[Guest MattP]

As moose says, the hypocrisy of these people is incredible, spend all year moaning about unemployment, housing, pressure on public service and then support something that causes more problems for everyone of those things just in case they could be considered racist.

[Captain...]

When you can't pay your mortgage it's no good telling the bank manager that Romania is much better off now, he's not interested. Your priority should always be you and your own family first.

 

That doesn't make sense, unless you are saying that the influx of Romanians has cost you your job? even then considering the welfare state we have in the UK, that would also be very unlikely to leave you unable to pay your mortgage, unless you are living well over your means, in which case you should move to a smaller property (that was the advice to the benefit scroungers wasn't it?).

 

Immigration has and continues to have a very positive impact on the UK, financially and culturally, of course it isn't perfect and there are problems, but in the long run a stronger more developed and united Europe will provide greater benefits to all.

[Webbo]

That doesn't make sense, unless you are saying that the influx of Romanians has cost you your job? even then considering the welfare state we have in the UK, that would also be very unlikely to leave you unable to pay your mortgage, unless you are living well over your means, in which case you should move to a smaller property (that was the advice to the benefit scroungers wasn't it?).

 

Immigration has and continues to have a very positive impact on the UK, financially and culturally, of course it isn't perfect and there are problems, but in the long run a stronger more developed and united Europe will provide greater benefits to all.

Mass immigration means less opportunity for people in this country looking for work and depresses the wages of those in work, not to mention the increased costs to public services.

 

This isn't meant as any detriment to Romanians, Bulgarians and any other immigrant coming from a deprived background. Wanting to improve your own circumstances is a natural and admirable objective for anyone but please don't tell me that the rest of us are so much better off for it.

[Captain...]

As moose says, the hypocrisy of these people is incredible, spend all year moaning about unemployment, housing, pressure on public service and then support something that causes more problems for everyone of those things just in case they could be considered racist.

 

If you are referring to me, (I don't spend all year moaning about unemployment, housing and pressure on public services, just at the Government's completely inadequate way of addressing those issues), it has nothing to do with being considered racist, and nobody has used the race card in this thread, not that I saw anyway (although I can see this is the preferred tactic when dealing with someone of a different opinion). Immigration will create jobs and boost the economy, unless we are talking about immigrants coming here and claiming benefits, which most people agree that benefit tourism shouldn't be permitted, but it is an absolute minority (saying that Cameron's plans to deal with it are weak, and will prove to be completely ineffective, but will win him a few votes as it looks like he's doing something).

[Guest MattP]

but in the long run a stronger more developed and united Europe will provide greater benefits to all.

I'm not sure if the average Spaniard or Greek would laugh or cry at that remark.

[Captain...]

Mass immigration means less opportunity for people in this country looking for work and depresses the wages of those in work, not to mention the increased costs to public services.

 

This isn't meant as any detriment to Romanians, Bulgarians and any other immigrant coming from a deprived background. Wanting to improve your own circumstances is a natural and admirable objective for anyone but please don't tell me that the rest of us are so much better off for it.

 

We will be in the long run.

 

The thing is you have to trust economic principles, it will fluctuate, and if we have too much immigration then yes wages will go down and it will have a negative impact, but then wages will be at a premium somewhere else, that will attract more migrants to where the wages are higher, every change, such as opening the borders to Romania and Bulgaria will cause fluctuations but over time it will even out. The negative impacts so far of European immigrants has been minimal and largely beneficial. We can look at controlling the negative effects by targetting employers that exploit cheap labour, and benefit tourists, but in general we need immigration to grow.

 

If you read what I quoted up there from the Telegraph there is a report saying that we will need 6 million more immigrants over then next 50 years to maintain growth.

[bovril]

Bulgaria is in the EU for geopolitical reasons, not because it will increase living standards in the country. And you are looking solely at the benifts for the host country, not for the country which has lost the doctors and nurses it has trained.