Public opinion and the politics of immigration

[Webbo]

We will be in the long run.

 

We're all living today.

[Captain...]

I'm not sure if the average Spaniard or Greek would laugh or cry at that remark.

 

In the long run, I know the EU has fvcked up a lot, but the crisis wasn't caused by the EU or immigration, but their handling of it was poor, and that comment was very idealistic. But it is what I genuinely believe we should be striving for.

[Captain...]

Bulgaria is in the EU for geopolitical reasons, not because it will increase living standards in the country. And you are looking solely at the benifts for the host country, not for the country which has lost the doctors and nurses it has trained.

 

We have been generally talking about unskilled labour, the loss of skilled labour is another issue, but in terms of Bulgaria and Romania skilled labour has been readily available to come to the UK for a long time, so not going to change.

[Harry - LCFC]

I think it's something like one English job lost for every thirteen migrant jobs gained which isn't too bad.

[Captain...]

I think it's something like one English job lost for every thirteen migrant jobs gained which isn't too bad.

 

I would like to see the source for that, as even I'm surprised by that.

[Harry - LCFC]

I would like to see the source for that, as even I'm surprised by that.

 

I shall endeavour to find it for you 

[The God Emperor]

unfortunately I think alot of the problem is with English people rather than bulgarian job thiefs. some of my younger relatives are now leaving school and looking to get into the workforce, but theie attitude is absolutely appalling. "that dont pay enough" "I aint working weekends" "I aint going all that way on a bus, I'd have to be up at 6" is what I usually hear coming out of their mouths so its no surprise to me that employees are picking johnny foreigner over kevin the teenager.

alot of young people who should be the ones using the unskilled work available to get on the ladder and gain some experience are instead taking benefits and living off mum and dad until they find a job that meets their unreasonable criteria.

I know thats a generalisation but it seems to be the attitude of alot of young people, the rest are shafted by things like the minimum wage which leaves them unable to compete with an experienced immigrant who's willing to work for low pay.    

[Webbo]

unfortunately I think alot of the problem is with English people rather than bulgarian job thiefs. some of my younger relatives are now leaving school and looking to get into the workforce, but theie attitude is absolutely appalling. "that dont pay enough" "I aint working weekends" "I aint going all that way on a bus, I'd have to be up at 6" is what I usually hear coming out of their mouths so its no surprise to me that employees are picking johnny foreigner over kevin the teenager.

alot of young people who should be the ones using the unskilled work available to get on the ladder and gain some experience are instead taking benefits and living off mum and dad until they find a job that meets their unreasonable criteria.

I know thats a generalisation but it seems to be the attitude of alot of young people, the rest are shafted by things like the minimum wage which leaves them unable to compete with an experienced immigrant who's willing to work for low pay.    

I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

[MooseBreath]

Absolutely, that's exactly the result you'd expect from such a generous welfare state.

[Guest MattP]

Absolutely, that's exactly the result you'd expect from such a generous welfare state.

Beat me too it.

Why work when someone will pay you not to?

[bovril]

Beat me too it.

Why work when someone will pay you not to?

 

I'd like to think that the actual working is a greater motivation than just the money, even if the wages are lower than the benefits.

[ADK]

We should be putting the long term unemployed to work doing community work, 10 hours a week. I think it would be about right then.

[Jon the Hat]

I'd like to think that the actual working is a greater motivation than just the money, even if the wages are lower than the benefits.

 

I think we can safely say that has proven not to be the case.

[Harry - LCFC]

I'd like to think that the actual working is a greater motivation than just the money, even if the wages are lower than the benefits.

 

No-one's going to work that has an effective pay rate that is negative. As nice as it is to think that it just goes against human reasoning, an activity has to provide some benefit to the individual for them to want to do it.

 

Low wages is also part of this and something that seems to get ignored I find. You can't just look at welfare.

[Jon the Hat]

In the long run, I know the EU has fvcked up a lot, but the crisis wasn't caused by the EU or immigration, but their handling of it was poor, and that comment was very idealistic. But it is what I genuinely believe we should be striving for.

 

Until the EU answers the fundamental question of why we should be paying for better roads in Spain than we have here, it is not going to get my vote.

[ADK]

I certainly wouldn't work for free.

[Captain...]

Until the EU answers the fundamental question of why we should be paying for better roads in Spain than we have here, it is not going to get my vote.

 

It's give and take, I'm not sure if this is a specific example you are talking about, but in general if you improve the infrastructure around Europe it will improve trade links and make us all prosperous as a result. Furthermore subsidising a project like that in a struggling country will create jobs, as long as it is a useful project and not a white elephant (which wouldn't surprise me).

 

One question though, why does it matter that their roads are better than ours? We are not in competition with Spain and it would make no sense for the EU to subsidise shit roads in Spain, just so we can keep our superiority, the idea is to aid development in Europe one way to do that is to build good transport infrastructure.

 

The truth is though in a give and take relationship those that have the most, us, Germany, France, give the most and those that have the least take the most, that is the only way it could work, it would be even more ludicrous for Spain in their current state to be financing our high speed railway. That is what you have to accept if we are a part of the EU.

[davieG]

It's give and take, I'm not sure if this is a specific example you are talking about, but in general if you improve the infrastructure around Europe it will improve trade links and make us all prosperous as a result. Furthermore subsidising a project like that in a struggling country will create jobs, as long as it is a useful project and not a white elephant (which wouldn't surprise me).

 

One question though, why does it matter that their roads are better than ours? We are not in competition with Spain and it would make no sense for the EU to subsidise shit roads in Spain, just so we can keep our superiority, the idea is to aid development in Europe one way to do that is to build good transport infrastructure.

 

The truth is though in a give and take relationship those that have the most, us, Germany, France, give the most and those that have the least take the most, that is the only way it could work, it would be even more ludicrous for Spain in their current state to be financing our high speed railway. That is what you have to accept if we are a part of the EU.

Not just better but white elephants

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18855961

[Captain...]

Not just better but white elephants

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18855961

 

I know that this was a big problem in Spain, and they made some very bad investments and there is still a lot of corruption in the local Government's Valencia was one of the worst, pumping lots of money into what were essentially vanity projects for the mayoress, the F1, America's Cup, Master's Tennis tournament and the spectacular construction on their dry river bed:

 

 

While many other areas went downhill quickly, and possibly deliberately, it is pretty much considered fact that Valencia took other city's homeless for money and dumped them in a very poor area of the city, between the beach and the city centre, for the purpose of driving down house prices, so they could buy it all up to develop the sea front. 

 

I can understand the criticism of the EU giving them money when they clearly spent it very irresponsibly, and hopefully the EU and Spain has learnt from it's mistakes.

 

It still doesn't change my mind that the EU is absolutely the right thing we should be doing, but I accept that it hasn't been done in the right way.

[Guest MattP]

This is exactly why we need some voluntary tax system in place where you only benefit from what you put in.

If the captain wants to fund Spanish potholes then charge him for it, he can be taxed at 80% and the rest of us who have no interest in doing so can be taxed at normal rates from what see as essential like schools, hospitals etc

Of course it works both ways as well as he can use the freedom of movement to his benefit.

All this seems to be doing at the minute is benefiting the rich from each country whatever it is

[davieG]

I'd have been happy if it had stayed as a Common Market after that's what people voted for, rather not to leave originally.

[Bellend Sebastian]

Until the EU answers the fundamental question of why we should be paying for better roads in Spain than we have here, it is not going to get my vote.

 

That's not fair, Jon.  It was EU money that paid for the 'Super Crossing' near Leicester Station that everybody hates.

 

Imagine if the Spaniards knew about that, eh?  They'd be so livid they'd probably chuck a spear in a bull, or something

[Jon the Hat]

I can understand the criticism of the EU giving them money when they clearly spent it very irresponsibly, and hopefully the EU and Spain has learnt from it's mistakes.

 

It still doesn't change my mind that the EU is absolutely the right thing we should be doing, but I accept that it hasn't been done in the right way.

 

The EU is going to continue to and try and do what its want to do, and the that is create a European Socialist Super state.  They want all powers of tax and spend, and I'm sure a lot of the Eurocrats are happy about the crises in Spain and Greece, becuase it proves their point, which is that you cannot have the EU without have central government, becuase local government have to be accountable for their spending, and the Angela Merkel struggles to convince Germans to bail everyone out.

 

The EU doesn't think it has done anything wrong, except not move fast enough towards its goals.

[ithuriel]

Love when peeps come out with the term, 'in the long run'

Remember my parents saying that when nuclear power was first put forwards in the long run it was supposed to make energy prices cheaper .

Have been amused by peeps where I work though, when the Polish first started coming over the Asians hated it and said there should be tighter boarder controls since the country was over loaded, earlier in the year the Polish lads were telling me how bad the Bulgarians and Romanians are  and none of them like the Somalians.

Poor old Keith Vaz will not know who to turn to at this rate to get his votes

[Guest MattP]

 

This is why we need to increase Polish immigration, tough, hard working, good looking and generally right wing in their views.

 

Maybe it's a Tory masterplan in the same way Labour laid out the red carpet for the third world.