Public opinion and the politics of immigration

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

I always took it to mean full as in not enough houses, school places, jobs, etc

This is how I also feel. The NHS is suffering too, with more people than they can handle. 

[Strokes]

Is nobody acknowledging my troll joke? Fine i will get my coat.

[Guest MattP]

Can only add to what a couple of said, if you import large amounts of people from the Third World into your country expect what follows.

 

If Man Utd signed 11 Exeter players, put them in Man U kits and played at Old Trafford, they would still play like Exeter.

 

 

Spot on

 

Sounds like the Australian immigration policy. Are you coming here to provide a service for us in return for us letting you live here? If so, welcome aboard. Otherwise, no thanks

 

I have no idea why this hasn't been implemented in all developed countries

No idea, we all know why it happened under the last government, they wanted votes and they wanted to change the demographic of the country because they know that would give them stronger chances of being elected, they were that selfish they didn't even care about anything apart from that and didn't care how many communities they destroyed doing it in the process.

 

One of their advisors even admitted it. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

 

You reap what you sew eventually mind and karma is a bitch.

[MooseBreath]

Correct me if I'm wrong in any of what I say here.

I get the impression you're implying that these women are being hypocritical by calling for a clamp down on rape. This, you feel, is hypocritical because these women and the criminals follow the same religion and are therefore to be viewed as one group, where the actions of some can be used to represent the rest of Islam.

Again I see it as just another instance of lumping everyone into one category which is far too simplistic. Muslims are a social group I agree but that grouping can be divided further. The women and the criminals share a religion but their social beliefs appear to differ enough for me to view them as separate from each other. There's no hypocrisy in what this association are doing IMO.

Wasn't really implying anything. Just thought it was relevant that we have Muslim girls being raped by Muslim men and the Muslim women's association saying that 'we' should be doing more to help. It's an example of importing problems. I'm not saying that there aren't native rapists around because clearly there are, but as has been said, when you import people from countries and social classes where these crimes are more prevalent, you shouldn't be surprised when thy bring their crimes with them.

[Rincewind]

Correct me if I'm wrong in any of what I say here.

 

I get the impression you're implying that these women are being hypocritical by calling for a clamp down on rape. This, you feel, is hypocritical because these women and the criminals follow the same religion and are therefore to be viewed as one group, where the actions of some can be used to represent the rest of Islam.

 

Again I see it as just another instance of lumping everyone into one category which is far too simplistic. Muslims are a social group I agree but that grouping can be divided further. The women and the criminals share a religion but their social beliefs appear to differ enough for me to view them as separate from each other. There's no hypocrisy in what this association are doing IMO.

And why should they not expect the same protection other women receive?

[Harry - LCFC]

And why should they not expect the same protection other women receive?

 

To be honest I think I misread what Moose wrote, thought he was saying it was hypocritical of them to attack other Muslims. But yes you're quite right, they've got just as much right to protection as everyone else and I'm fully supportive of them having a say on this issue.

[Guest MattP]

Fantastic article from a Labour MP Tom Harris regarding the Romania/Bulgaria immigration situation.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10477858/Object-to-mass-immigration-from-the-EU-Join-the-Romaphobe-club.html

 

 

How grateful we all were when our political leaders graciously informed us that we were once again allowed to discuss immigration without being accused of racism.

 

And it’s (largely) been true. Because now there’s a new word, or rather, a number of new words that can be used pejoratively to describe those who question the value of large-scale immigration. And all those words end with “phobeâ€.

 

The latest is “Romaphobeâ€, used to attack anyone who is too stupid to understand how “lively†and “vibrant†their communities will become after New Year’s Day, when EU freedom of movement rules are lifted to Romanian and Bulgarian citizens.

 

Do I need to add all the usual caveats and qualifications before I continue? Okay, let's get it over with: the vast majority of immigrants from all over the world make a massively positive financial as well as personal and cultural contribution to the UK. Britain is far better off today than it would have been without immigration.

Okay? Can I continue now?

 

Like other MPs in parts of the country which have seen a large influx of Eastern European immigrants, I’ve been approached increasingly frequently by constituents with complaints and fears. The fears bit is easy to explain: no one wants to be accused of racism or of being a phobe.

 

But a consistent pattern of complaints took shape quite early on: filthy and vastly overcrowded living arrangements, organised aggressive begging, the ghetto-isation of local streets where women no longer feel safe to walk due to the presence of large groups of (workless) men, the rifling through domestic wheelie bins by groups of women pushing oddly child-free prams, and a worrying increase in the reporting of aggressive and violent behavior in local schools.

Naturally and inevitably, there are those who will point to similarly unpleasant anti-social behavior by the indigenous population, and for a time those complaints and fears of my constituents can be safely ignored or explained away in whatever way makes us all feel comfortable again.

 

In the meantime, my constituents become angrier and more resentful, because the lives they have worked so hard to build for themselves and their families are being impinged upon by people whose culture, way of life and attitude to authority and those around them are utterly alien. And no one is listening to them, or representing them or their concerns.

 

The cries of “(insert preferred ethnic grouping)-phobia†always come from those who resist value judgments on other cultures. What’s good about our culture might be offensive to others, and vice versa. Everything’s relative, yeah?

No.

 

It would be absurd to claim that all foreign cultures are beneficial to the UK. Take an extreme example: female genital mutilation. This is a barbaric product of a backward culture that is alien to Britain and only exists here because it was brought here by north African immigrant communities. FGM is wrong, a hateful and disgusting practice. And it’s not just wrong here in the UK. It’s wrong wherever in the world it’s practiced and we should be doing everything we can to stop it. Sounds like cultural imperialism? Whatever.

 

So, having established that not every foreign cultural can, or should, fit seamlessly into modern Britain, can we at least recognise that those who simply do not want any more immigration from (for example) eastern Europe have every right to say so? And to be heard?

It’s simply not good enough for our leaders to say that it’s all right to talk about immigration, and then when they do exactly that, to call them bigots when they think no one’s listening.

 

Maybe the fears of a “flood†of eastern Europeans queuing up at Calais as December 31 ticks away are unfounded. No one any longer believes government estimates of how many are likely to come here anyway. But when David Cameron talks about making the UK benefit system less attractive to new arrivals from Romania and Bulgaria, he’s speaking to a lot more people than just his own party’s Right wing.

And my own party would do well to recognise that.

 

[Mike Oxlong]

Don't mind the Eastern European lap dancers being allowed in. They tend to have good bone structure and it makes me feel like I've done some good in that my wad has helped to buy a shiny new tractor for a village somewhere that it's needed.

[ADK]

 

Fantastic article from a Labour MP Tom Harris regarding the Romania/Bulgaria immigration situation.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10477858/Object-to-mass-immigration-from-the-EU-Join-the-Romaphobe-club.html

 

 

 

 

It's all ok coming out with that but none of the main 3 parties have done a single thing to stop this immigration being forced upon us which is ridiculous. No immigrant should be coming here and claiming benefits because no immigrant should be coming here unless they have a job lined up or a valuable qualification.

[Mike Oxlong]

Think we should send them some of our munters and chavs.

[Guest MattP]

It's all ok coming out with that but none of the main 3 parties have done a single thing to stop this immigration being forced upon us which is ridiculous. No immigrant should be coming here and claiming benefits because no immigrant should be coming here unless they have a job lined up or a valuable qualification.

 

We completely agree.

 

What I find so strange is the same people whinging about lack of housing, wages being driven down and cuts in the public sector are the same people who support mass uncontrolled immigration of unskilled workers. It's fcuking barmy.

[purpleronnie]

yet over the last decade or so, the UK has benefited fiscally from immigrants from EEA countries, who have put in considerably more in taxes and contributions than they received in benefits and transfers.

[Guest MattP]

yet over the last decade or so, the UK has benefited fiscally from immigrants from EEA countries, who have put in considerably more in taxes and contributions than they received in benefits and transfers.

 

Those figures can occasionaly be misleading though as they don't take into account benefits paid out to those who possibly lost unskilled work from the people already here. It's a very basic viewpoint to just judge it as 'that from EEC worker tax paid minus EEC entrants on benefits'.

 

Not to mention money earned that has been taken out of the economy here and sent back home to the home nations. I'd like to see a real in depth financial study on it by a completely independent body.

 

Keep speaking like that though and you'll be dragged up on BBC Question Time to be the rich, white, employed, middle class liberal who goes across the country to tell the youth unemployed of Boston why mass unkilled immigration of people who will undercut their wages is so good for them.

[purpleronnie]

 

 

Keep speaking like that though and you'll be dragged up on BBC Question Time to be the rich, white, employed, middle class liberal who goes across the country to tell the youth unemployed of Boston why mass unkilled immigration of people who will undercut their wages is so good for them.

Its about blinkin time.

[Mike the Metal Ed]

Unless the evil Eastern Europeans are now breeding by mitosis, are there not brilliant skills gaps that we, as EU citizems could fill in countries with a much lower cost of living?

 

I don't like our national attitude that this is all one way. As someone learning a media skill, not being able to freely apply for jobs on the continent could severely impact my future job prospects.

[Guest MattP]

Unless the evil Eastern Europeans are now breeding by mitosis, are there not brilliant skills gaps that we, as EU citizems could fill in countries with a much lower cost of living?

 

I don't like our national attitude that this is all one way. As someone learning a media skill, not being able to freely apply for jobs on the continent could severely impact my future job prospects.

 

So just because you might want to apply for job on the continent you think young unskilled Britons here should have their employment prospects severly compromised?

 

And you've had the gall to call the Tories nasty for trying to get people to move to a smaller house.

[ADK]

yet over the last decade or so, the UK has benefited fiscally from immigrants from EEA countries, who have put in considerably more in taxes and contributions than they received in benefits and transfers.

 

That argument fails to take into account the fact most people want immigration controls, not closed immigration. I'd imagine there are a good number of migrants who come here from EEA countries with valuable skills that would still have been allowed to migrate with a controlled system.

 

As already mentioned it assumes there is no opportunity cost in employing a migrant worker.

[Mike the Metal Ed]

So just because you might want to apply for job on the continent you think young unskilled Britons here should have their employment prospects severly compromised or move to a third World country?

 

And you've had the gall to call the Tories nasty for trying to get people to move to a smaller house.

 

I'm saying people should explore all the options available to them. I'm sure there's a lovely niche with a reasonable standard of living just waiting for an enterprising Brit to exploit. The reason the Conservatives used to be very (as opposed to marginally) pro-EU is because building borders and restricting movement restricts opportunities, right?

[lavrentis]

I wonder if those Eastern Europeans i see on a park bench everyday go to work?

[Guest MattP]

I'm saying people should explore all the options available to them. I'm sure there's a lovely niche with a reasonable standard of living just waiting for an enterprising Brit to exploit. The reason the Conservatives used to be very (as opposed to marginally) pro-EU is because building borders and restricting movement restricts opportunities, right?

 

Yep and we can actually still have that you know without completely opening up borders to countries where significent proportions of the population are controlled by criminal gangs and the living wage is less than our basic JSA.

 

People did go and work in Europe before we decided on an open border policy, British people also go and work in the USA, Canada, Australia and many other places as well if they are skilled enough.

[Mike the Metal Ed]

Yep and we can actually still have that you know without completely opening up borders to countries where significent proportions of the population are controlled by criminal gangs and the living wage is less than our basic JSA.

 

People did go and work in Europe before we decided on an open border policy, British people also go and work in the USA, Canada, Australia and many other places as well if they are skilled enough.

 

But placing artificial barriers in peoples' way is a bit of a hindrence to that. Fact is there isn't that much low-skilled work to go around in this country any more, which is why such immigration has slowed. We're no longer a manufacturing powerhouse where one can leave their job at lunch and go across the road into a new job by afternoon. What we can do is trade skills as a European, if not global, community to make everywhere a nicer place to live. I don't want to deny anyone a chance of building a better life for themselves and their families, no matter what nationality they are.

[Guest MattP]

But placing artificial barriers in peoples' way is a bit of a hindrence to that. Fact is there isn't that much low-skilled work to go around in this country any more, which is why such immigration has slowed. We're no longer a manufacturing powerhouse where one can leave their job at lunch and go across the road into a new job by afternoon. What we can do is trade skills as a European, if not global, community to make everywhere a nicer place to live. I don't want to deny anyone a chance of building a better life for themselves and their families, no matter what nationality they are.

 

This is just madness Mike.

 

We have a lower unemployment rate than pretty much any other European nation, how can it benefit our people to enter into a pact with countries like Spain, Greece and Romania that have youth employment rates of upto 40%, how is that possibly going to benefit us in the long term?

 

You might be prepared to lower wages, standards of living and the chance of a succesful for life for British people so 'everyone wherever they live can get a chance' but I and a lot wouldn't be, I'd look after my own people first and I make no apology for that.

 

By that comment you may as well open the borders to the whole World.

[Dr The Singh]

This is just madness Mike.

 

We have a lower unemployment rate than pretty much any other European nation, how can it benefit our people to enter into a pact with countries like Spain, Greece and Romania that have youth employment rates of upto 40%, how is that possibly going to benefit us in the long term?

 

You might be prepared to lower wages, standards of living and the chance of a succesful for life for British people so 'everyone wherever they live can get a chance' but I and a lot wouldn't be, I'd look after my own people first and I make no apology for that.

 

By that comment you may as well open the borders to the whole World.

Matt P is not just a pretty face, he should be a pretty face with a turban on....agree with alot he says, most of the time!!!

[Guest MattP]

Matt P is not just a pretty face, he should be a pretty face with a turban on....agree with alot he says, most of the time!!!

 

There is a picture of me in an India kit after losing a bet once, but I've not dared go for the turban. (yet)

[Dr The Singh]

Don't like India mate, I would never wear the kit, must have been horrible for you!!

 

You got the round face for a good starch, tharkan turban!!