Alf Bentley Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 My point was that any estimate of fraud is necessarily exactly that, just an estimate. It is totally different to other figures like employment, inflation, growth etc as those calculations all have established and respected methodologies. Benefit fraud meanwhile can only be just a guess, and no government is going to give a high figure as it would just betray their own incompetence at tackling the issue. So, there are respected methodologies that account for undeclared work (a factor affecting both employment stats and benefit/tax fraud stats, I'd have thought), for illicit trade, the black market and undeclared sales....yet no such methodologies for estimating tax/benefit fraud?!? I give up! Anyway, my last post included a link to the methodology for estimating benefit fraud, if anyone's interested in assessing it. Can't say that I have either the expertise or the inclination. Still, at least if the Tories announce that there has been an increase in benefit fraud, we can look forward to Moose coming on here and saying that their figure is a guess with no credibility. The same will presumably apply to any immigration stats, as obviously not all immigration is declared.
Tommy G Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 Women can't be involved in building wind farms? Firstly the process of building and developing renewable energies doesn't just mean getting some big blokes with their jeans hanging too low carrying bricks up some scaffolding. It is a whole industry with many types of jobs, research, purchasing, finance, planning etc, that people with all kinds of abilities will be able to do, there will even be jobs for women, they will need someone to make the tea... Secondly, investing in renewable energies will create jobs and will help address one of the big problems we have, which is the spiralling energy costs, not to mention the environment factor and reliance on finite enrgy sources. If we can become a world leader in renewable energies then we will have something to export, and strengthen our economy. You may not like the little shit, but if unemployment is a problem, then the government can try and stimulate employment by investing in industries in this country, or just pay benefits for people to sit on their arse. (They could also stop handing big contracts to foreign companies, because they will do it cheaper on the bottom line completetly missing the big picture, but that is another point). From a womens perspective - I was talking about them clambering about on building sites. not being sexist, but its a fact about that type of industry. It is male dominated. I thought his blabbering about how we could base ourselves on the German model. That ship sailed a long time ago, we are a service sector based economy and arent going to change that overnight by recreating our economic model on something he has dreamt up. His ideal would be the minimum wage set at a tenner an hour and we all hold hands and clap whilst making wind farms. Waste of air
Alf Bentley Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 Whoops! Accidentally gave Tommy G a rep point, instead of CPF! Unofficial -1 for Tommy G! Nah, make that -10!
Tommy G Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 Whoops! Accidentally gave Tommy G a rep point, instead of CPF! Unofficial -1 for Tommy G! Nah, make that -10! Thank you kindly I guess you are in agreement with his airy fairy views? He sat in First Class on the train on his way to that documentary last night, by the way
Captain... Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 From a womens perspective - I was talking about them clambering about on building sites. not being sexist, but its a fact about that type of industry. It is male dominated. I thought his blabbering about how we could base ourselves on the German model. That ship sailed a long time ago, we are a service sector based economy and arent going to change that overnight by recreating our economic model on something he has dreamt up. His ideal would be the minimum wage set at a tenner an hour and we all hold hands and clap whilst making wind farms. Waste of air I've not heard him say that about the minimum wage, I am against increasing the minimum wage as it will only serve to push up costs and therefore prices, but his point that people aren't being paid a living wage is a valid one, what is the point in getting people into work if we have to subsidise their wages with benefits. We need to adress the fact that people at the bottom aren't being paid enough to live whereas those in the middle and at the top are being paid far more than they need, that is the disparity that needs to be addressed more so than benefit fraud.
Captain... Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 Thank you kindly I guess you are in agreement with his airy fairy views? He sat in First Class on the train on his way to that documentary last night, by the way The cvnt, all of views are now completely invalid. Unless... Did he pay for it or do a George Osbourne? In which case, way to stick it to the man.
Tommy G Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 I've not heard him say that about the minimum wage, I am against increasing the minimum wage as it will only serve to push up costs and therefore prices, but his point that people aren't being paid a living wage is a valid one, what is the point in getting people into work if we have to subsidise their wages with benefits. We need to adress the fact that people at the bottom aren't being paid enough to live whereas those in the middle and at the top are being paid far more than they need, that is the disparity that needs to be addressed more so than benefit fraud. So you are of the opinion that people need to be paid the same regardless of their skill set. Apart from the exceptions (investment bankers) who get paid way more than they should, you can add footballers to that list to. I think you should be paid a lot of money if you are doing a good job 9or have professional qualifications etc)! If you dont pay the salary, then most talented people in this country will simply work abroad. As they will get paid more. No point dressing it up. Unless you are born into wealth, most people work for the money, to pay a mortgage and being up kids etc. The lack of decent wages in this country, if you suggest reducing the gap, wil squash any kind of entrepenurial flair of any youngsters of the future if there is no incentive i.e Pay. fact is some people earn more than others, maybe if people didn't sit on their arses complaining about that fact they might earn a bit more than others too. Think about it.
Tommy G Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 The cvnt, all of views are now completely invalid. Unless... Did he pay for it or do a George Osbourne? In which case, way to stick it to the man. Channel 4 paid for it. Still, if he stuck by his guns he would sit with the rest of the peasants in cattle class. instead he risked it and got the slating he got today
MooseBreath Posted 18 February 2014 Author Posted 18 February 2014 So, there are respected methodologies that account for undeclared work (a factor affecting both employment stats and benefit/tax fraud stats, I'd have thought), for illicit trade, the black market and undeclared sales....yet no such methodologies for estimating tax/benefit fraud?!? I give up! Anyway, my last post included a link to the methodology for estimating benefit fraud, if anyone's interested in assessing it. Can't say that I have either the expertise or the inclination. Still, at least if the Tories announce that there has been an increase in benefit fraud, we can look forward to Moose coming on here and saying that their figure is a guess with no credibility. The same will presumably apply to any immigration stats, as obviously not all immigration is declared. Yes I think I have made the obvious point on here before about official immigration figures probably being a bit lower than the reality. But immigration is generally well calculated. I hadn't seen your link to the benefit fraud methodology. I might have a look at it if I get a chance. But fundamentally it can only be a guess.
Captain... Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 Channel 4 paid for it. Still, if he stuck by his guns he would sit with the rest of the peasants in cattle class. instead he risked it and got the slating he got today What? I didn't realise his opinion was that everyone should travel in the same class, also if channel 4 booked it in advance you can get First class tickets cheaper than standard. Most likely it was the Free Wifi and space to work which made him choose first class. But hey lets ignore the points he makes and criticise him for travelling first class to Brimingham.
Smudge Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 I've never been on benefits, nor have my family, you angry little man! I was obviously raised differently to you though. What is it you're so angry at? Genuine claimants who are entitled to benefits claiming them (in which case I assume you're against the welfare state), or people committing benefit fraud? The UK government estimates that total fraud across the whole of the economy amounts to £73 billion a year. UK government figures for 2012 estimate benefits overpaid due to fraud is £1.2 billion and tax credit fraud is £380 million. So just under £1.6 billion in total; less than 1% of the overall benefits and tax credits expenditure and less than benefits underpaid and overpaid due to error. I don't get angry at very poor people who are on benefits like you do, if i had to channel my anger somewhere, it would be at amazon, starbucks, and all the other companies you probably frequent regularaly, while you rant at people who live pretty crappy lives. That 73 billion includes all fraud seems that's a broad brush to compare it against. The public sector fraud is estimated at 20.3 billion of which 1.2 billion of benefits fraud represents about 6% of government fraud. On top of benefits are housing, tv licence and vehicle tax fraud. Annual fraud indicator
Captain... Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 So you are of the opinion that people need to be paid the same regardless of their skill set. Apart from the exceptions (investment bankers) who get paid way more than they should, you can add footballers to that list to. I think you should be paid a lot of money if you are doing a good job 9or have professional qualifications etc)! If you dont pay the salary, then most talented people in this country will simply work abroad. As they will get paid more. No point dressing it up. Unless you are born into wealth, most people work for the money, to pay a mortgage and being up kids etc. The lack of decent wages in this country, if you suggest reducing the gap, wil squash any kind of entrepenurial flair of any youngsters of the future if there is no incentive i.e Pay. fact is some people earn more than others, maybe if people didn't sit on their arses complaining about that fact they might earn a bit more than others too. Think about it. I didn't say everyone should be paid the same, what I would like to see is a closing of the gap between what is earnt at the top and at the bottom, one way to do that is to pay everyone at the bottom more, but that will just increase costs. What I would like to see is companies distribute success and profits through the food chain, bonuses should paid through out the whole company to reward the success that everyone is a part of. This will be motivation to work harder to improve profits if you know you will see some of it. Likewise pay rises, should be company wide, rather than giving those at the top big pay rises and bonuses to reward success, when those at the bottom, who have also been a part of that success get nothing. As for the brain drain, do you think we pay the highest wages in the world? There is already plenty of opportunity for people to move to other countries for huge amounts of money, I got offered a job in Dubai huge salaries tax free, accomodation paid for. I turned it down because I don't want to live in Dubai. People actually enjoy living in this country because despite it's many flaws it is still one of the best countries in the world. I think we would need to seriously tax the shit out of top earners for people to actually move abroad, they are more likely to set themselves up abroad and work in the UK, which also happens now. We wouldn't lose the "talent" just their taxes.
Tommy G Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 I didn't say everyone should be paid the same, what I would like to see is a closing of the gap between what is earnt at the top and at the bottom, one way to do that is to pay everyone at the bottom more, but that will just increase costs. What I would like to see is companies distribute success and profits through the food chain, bonuses should paid through out the whole company to reward the success that everyone is a part of. This will be motivation to work harder to improve profits if you know you will see some of it. Likewise pay rises, should be company wide, rather than giving those at the top big pay rises and bonuses to reward success, when those at the bottom, who have also been a part of that success get nothing. As for the brain drain, do you think we pay the highest wages in the world? There is already plenty of opportunity for people to move to other countries for huge amounts of money, I got offered a job in Dubai huge salaries tax free, accomodation paid for. I turned it down because I don't want to live in Dubai. People actually enjoy living in this country because despite it's many flaws it is still one of the best countries in the world. I think we would need to seriously tax the shit out of top earners for people to actually move abroad, they are more likely to set themselves up abroad and work in the UK, which also happens now. We wouldn't lose the "talent" just their taxes. Unfortunately for you companies can pick and chose who they pay bonus' to, and if you want income from the success of a company then perhaps purchase some shares and get a dividend? A good example is john Lewis who pay good bonus' to all staff which is profit driven, i believe So your point about only paying ''top bosses'' is a bit flawed depending how you look at it
Captain... Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 Unfortunately for you companies can pick and chose who they pay bonus' to, and if you want income from the success of a company then perhaps purchase some shares and get a dividend? A good example is john Lewis who pay good bonus' to all staff which is profit driven, i believe So your point about only paying ''top bosses'' is a bit flawed depending how you look at it It's not unfortunate for me, I get a 9% bonus guaranteed rising to 15% based on performance. It is unfortunate for those working at the bottom, feeling like underpaid and under appreciated worker drones. John Lewis is a good example of the model I would like to see other companies adopt, but as you said, the government can't force companies to structure their pay like that. They can regulate and tax, but they can't dictate pay structures. I'm not sure which point about "only paying ''top bosses''" you are referring to to be honest, but you are probably right it is most likely flawed.
Merging Cultures Posted 18 February 2014 Posted 18 February 2014 Wow Mark is a lazy git. He's not done anything since 2008? Fairplay he has a job now apparently. But surely even he could have gotten a job at McDonalds or something.
Rincewind Posted 19 February 2014 Posted 19 February 2014 http://politicalscrapbook.net/2014/02/dad-had-benefits-sanctioned-while-caring-for-cancer-stricken-baby-leukaemia/
Zingari Posted 19 February 2014 Posted 19 February 2014 http://politicalscrapbook.net/2014/02/dad-had-benefits-sanctioned-while-caring-for-cancer-stricken-baby-leukaemia/ blimey Ken , there's some angry feckers commenting on that article .
Captain... Posted 19 February 2014 Posted 19 February 2014 http://politicalscrapbook.net/2014/02/dad-had-benefits-sanctioned-while-caring-for-cancer-stricken-baby-leukaemia/ Sad news, there really does seem to be a lack of common sense when sanctioning people on benefits. On a side note, does the equivalent of paternity and maternity leave count when on benefits? Seeing as new working mothers get up to 52 weeks of leave, if they are on benefits do they get the equivalent time where they don't have to apply for work and get their benefits secured?
Strokes Posted 19 February 2014 Posted 19 February 2014 blimey Ken , there's some angry feckers commenting on that article .Kin hell, people comparing it to the nazi regime. I might be wrong but in pretty sure there is no genocide going on yet.
DennisNedry Posted 19 February 2014 Posted 19 February 2014 Blimey, that political scrapbook looks like the left wing version of stormfront - nutjobs on the other side of the spectrum
MooseBreath Posted 19 February 2014 Author Posted 19 February 2014 Love the way they give no background or details whatsoever and yet it's enough to make people angry as hell. For all anyone knows he could be a banker taking home multi mill bonuses
leicsmac Posted 19 February 2014 Posted 19 February 2014 It is all rhetoric...left wing equivalent of the Daily Fail. Also, I find it hilarious how both left wing and right wing nutters can evoke Godwins Law on comment threads. It really is an equal opportunities insult.
Alf Bentley Posted 19 February 2014 Posted 19 February 2014 On a side note, does the equivalent of paternity and maternity leave count when on benefits? Seeing as new working mothers get up to 52 weeks of leave, if they are on benefits do they get the equivalent time where they don't have to apply for work and get their benefits secured? Why do you ask? You haven't got some unemployed tart up the duff, have you, Captain?! Not a girl called Jack, surely.... That's just typical of you wet liberal types, seizing the opportunity to scrounge some benefits. I bet you'll be after a council house, too, and will probably let the spare room out to Romanian immigrants so as to avoid the bedroom tax. Never mind about the kid, just send Jack out to earn her living the day after the birth - on the lowest wage possible. Maximising the profits of capitalist corporations is the only way we can build a successful economy and the patriotic Victorian society that we all need. If there are no vacancies for lefty journalists, she could always get an unpaid internship making tea at a wind farm and work her way up from the bottom, like all the top bosses do. Mind you, sounds like you might have already done too much "working your way up from the bottom"....
Captain... Posted 19 February 2014 Posted 19 February 2014 Why do you ask? You haven't got some unemployed tart up the duff, have you, Captain?! Not a girl called Jack, surely.... That's just typical of you wet liberal types, seizing the opportunity to scrounge some benefits. I bet you'll be after a council house, too, and will probably let the spare room out to Romanian immigrants so as to avoid the bedroom tax. Never mind about the kid, just send Jack out to earn her living the day after the birth - on the lowest wage possible. Maximising the profits of capitalist corporations is the only way we can build a successful economy and the patriotic Victorian society that we all need. If there are no vacancies for lefty journalists, she could always get an unpaid internship making tea at a wind farm and work her way up from the bottom, like all the top bosses do. Mind you, sounds like you might have already done too much "working your way up from the bottom".... nope... just curious, honest guv.
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