ozleicester Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 Why have the black community responded by torching the town?! It's just gonna give the racists more ammunition for justifying why the cop 'had' to shoot. What choice have they got, they are being killed in the streets and the killers do not even go to trial. Id burn every thing i saw if i was them.
leicsmac Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 Scenes last night were laughable. Looting and vandalism absurdly described as protest. Police should be opening fire, it's disgraceful good decent people have to see their businesses ruined because such thuggery is treated with kid gloves. No excuse for the rioting, it does nothing for their very reasonable cause. But can you imagine the headlines if they did open fire? I think escalation is the last thing that's needed now, and everyone in authority as well as the parents of the guy who was killed know that too.
Guest MattP Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 Young black males in recent years were at a far greater risk of being shot dead by police than their white counterparts – 21 times greater, according to a ProPublica analysis of federally collected data on fatal police shootings. 21 times greater... No wonder they are fighting. Probably because they also seem about 21 times more likely to run at police officers after being caught on the rob.
Guest MattP Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 No excuse for the rioting, it does nothing for their very reasonable cause. But can you imagine the headlines if they did open fire? I think escalation is the last thing that's needed now, and everyone in authority as well as the parents of the guy who was killed know that too. That's the problem isn't it? The cops know they can't afford escalation so the crowds know they can get away with any sort of violence. As I've said, it's the innocent Asians and Koreans I feel for now, they have to watch their livelihoods get blown up because the blacks want to their own thugs to be treated with such exaggerated respect again
Finnegan Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 "The blacks?" I've seen footage of white "protestors" and if London is anything to go by, I'm sure there'll be plenty of perfectly innocent black people having their lives and livelihoods ruined by looting and rioting.
Footballwipe Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 No problem with protest, but it seems like this has once again been hijacked by opportunist thugs. At what point does a protester, urging for more equality for black people, think "In order to get the message across I'm going to smash this shop in and steal Pepsi and chips." They're ruining the message genuine protesters want to send, piggybacking on this death to loot. More harm than good. The actual protests and peaceful ones are pertinent, all the evidence suggests black people are treated awfully still in areas of the USA, and that needs to change.
Guest MattP Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 "The blacks?" I've seen footage of white "protestors" and if London is anything to go by, I'm sure there'll be plenty of perfectly innocent black people having their lives and livelihoods ruined by looting and rioting. The footage of the looting this morning I watched was overwhelmingly black, let's not confuse the looters and protesters.
Finnegan Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 The population of Ferguson is significantly majority black. It stands to reason if there is looting in the town there will be a majority of black looters.
leicsmac Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 No problem with protest, but it seems like this has once again been hijacked by opportunist thugs. At what point does a protester, urging for more equality for black people, think "In order to get the message across I'm going to smash this shop in and steal Pepsi and chips." They're ruining the message genuine protesters want to send, piggybacking on this death to loot. More harm than good. The actual protests and peaceful ones are pertinent, all the evidence suggests black people are treated awfully still in areas of the USA, and that needs to change. Pretty much what I wanted to say.
ozleicester Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 Oh those damned black people http://imgur.com/a/rYd72
David Guiza Posted 26 November 2014 Author Posted 26 November 2014 New York Times have printed the full case transcript for anyone that has the time/interest to read it. http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/11/24/ferguson-assets/grand-jury-testimony.pdf A lad I went Uni with attended some trainee Police/PSCO classes during our degree and told me that he was told to look for stereotypes when on duty; perhaps understandably. I'm a 6'3' white male and the odds of me being stopped and searched, for example, in this country are far less than a black man of the same description, and I'd imagine that's the exact same, if not more so in the US. Whether or not they felt like victims to the officer telling them to move off the road, and whether the officer would have reacted in the same way should it have been two white males doing the exact same thing is something that nobody knows. But, even the most naive of folk most realise that there is discrimination when it comes to this type of thing throughout the US, the only difference is that some would argue that discrimination works and helps to prevent crime etc.
Bettsj2 Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 Unfortunately in many black communities in the States, gang culture, crime, violence etc is rife and as a result, heavy policing is required. Nobody makes young black men steal, join gangs, deal drugs in these neighbourhoods, they do it as its the easy option. Yes, perhaps the American government has historically been racist and denied young black men the opportunities afforded to their white counterparts but that is in the past. There is nothing stopping young black men from going to school, getting an education and regenerating their own society. What stops them is their own paranoid scepticism that somehow if they were the most intelligent, qualified person on the face of the planet they wouldnt get looked at because of their race. This isnt true. The only thing that stops anyone getting anywhere is self attitude. Imagine what would happen if all the young people in these communities dumped all the gang shit, went to school, studied hard and either got decent jobs or started businesses. With 10 years, all the bullshit that goes on today would be gone. A friend of mine grew up in LA. He said most of the guys he knew had the attitude, 'whats the point in education when all i'll end up doing is dealin crack'. Too many have this low opinion of themselves and crime rises as a result and heavy policing is a result of it.
johnny the fox Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=935xZdnVwq4 you can't put it better than this.. 20 years ago, no change,.
Guest MattP Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 Unfortunately in many black communities in the States, gang culture, crime, violence etc is rife and as a result, heavy policing is required. Nobody makes young black men steal, join gangs, deal drugs in these neighbourhoods, they do it as its the easy option. Yes, perhaps the American government has historically been racist and denied young black men the opportunities afforded to their white counterparts but that is in the past. There is nothing stopping young black men from going to school, getting an education and regenerating their own society. What stops them is their own paranoid scepticism that somehow if they were the most intelligent, qualified person on the face of the planet they wouldnt get looked at because of their race. This isnt true. The only thing that stops anyone getting anywhere is self attitude. Imagine what would happen if all the young people in these communities dumped all the gang shit, went to school, studied hard and either got decent jobs or started businesses. With 10 years, all the bullshit that goes on today would be gone. A friend of mine grew up in LA. He said most of the guys he knew had the attitude, 'whats the point in education when all i'll end up doing is dealin crack'. Too many have this low opinion of themselves and crime rises as a result and heavy policing is a result of it. Terrific post. I'm not an Obama fan but hope his legacy would be that young black people will think 'If we can president, we can be anything'. Sadly, I don't think it's going to be the case.
Merging Cultures Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 Unfortunately in many black communities in the States, gang culture, crime, violence etc is rife and as a result, heavy policing is required. Nobody makes young black men steal, join gangs, deal drugs in these neighbourhoods, they do it as its the easy option. Yes, perhaps the American government has historically been racist and denied young black men the opportunities afforded to their white counterparts but that is in the past. There is nothing stopping young black men from going to school, getting an education and regenerating their own society. What stops them is their own paranoid scepticism that somehow if they were the most intelligent, qualified person on the face of the planet they wouldnt get looked at because of their race. This isnt true. The only thing that stops anyone getting anywhere is self attitude. Imagine what would happen if all the young people in these communities dumped all the gang shit, went to school, studied hard and either got decent jobs or started businesses. With 10 years, all the bullshit that goes on today would be gone. A friend of mine grew up in LA. He said most of the guys he knew had the attitude, 'whats the point in education when all i'll end up doing is dealin crack'. Too many have this low opinion of themselves and crime rises as a result and heavy policing is a result of it. and a lack of food, clean clothes, guidance, family support, books etc. Not to mention peer pressure and the threat of violence if they do not fit in. It's a bit more complicated than you are making out. Given, as you say, how rife gang culture, crime, violence etc are in the US, then it does take something monumental to break out of that cycle. I heard someone the other day say it quite well, "If you grow up in a mining town, you aspire to be a miner. If you grow up in the hood, you aspire to be a drug dealer. It is all many kids know." The schools where these children go are failing them. I lived in Baltimore City, all our friends with school age children moved out to the suburbs. There is 'white flight' in the cities. My tax bill kept going up, because there were fewer and fewer people paying taxes. Which meant cuts to education and support services. I mentored a kid who's mum managed to get a City council job. It was low paying, but it was a regular pay check. She worked very hard to keep that job, there were thousands of others who were waiting behind her. She struggled to get out to the suburbs, where her son now has a better education. They have made their own luck. She is now dating a guy who I don't really like. I think he could bring them down. I hope she leaves him before it is too late. For many people, they do not have these options. They are stuck in a cycle that they cannot get out of. It isn't as easy as saying, the only thing that stops anyone getting anywhere is self attitude. I'd say that is true for many of us from the privileged side of life.
The Doctor Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 Young black males in recent years were at a far greater risk of being shot dead by police than their white counterparts – 21 times greater[/size], according to a ProPublica analysis of federally collected data on fatal police shootings.[/size] 21 times greater... No wonder they are fighting. Even so, how does responding to being profiled as violent thugs by acting like violent thugs help their cause?
Finnegan Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 Even so, how does responding to being profiled as violent thugs by acting like violent thugs help their cause? Refer to Bmore's post above.
ADK Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 Lets not allow a minority, even a significant minority of opportunist looters to represent an entire race.
ozleicester Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 Even so, how does responding to being profiled as violent thugs by acting like violent thugs help their cause? My guess (and thats all it is as im a middle aged middle class white male and therefore living in a society designed and focused on me) A society that has failed so many of these people has left them with a complete disrespect for that society. They cant go to th courts and expect a rational outcome, They cant go to the police and expect assistance. If your society is fvcked... then you respond by fighting back
Guest MattP Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 and a lack of food, clean clothes, guidance, family support, books etc. Not to mention peer pressure and the threat of violence if they do not fit in. Fair point of course for many, but let's not use that as an excuse for this case. Michael Brown had graduated from high school a few days before, he was wearing the latest Cardinals jersey when he decided to physically assault the convenience store clerk and steal a box of cigars from his shop. He seemed to have all the opportunities everyone else had whatever colour he was.
Guest MattP Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 If your society is fvcked... then you respond by fighting back Good job the Asians didn't take that advice in 1946 and 2004. They had a 'our society is fcuked so let's rebuild it' attitude.
David Guiza Posted 26 November 2014 Author Posted 26 November 2014 Terrific post. I'm not an Obama fan but hope his legacy would be that young black people will think 'If we can president, we can be anything'. Sadly, I don't think it's going to be the case. I'm also very much not an Obama fan, but yes, in theory his legacy should have opened doors to black youths and what they can achieve. But, Obama was born to Univeristy educated parents in Hawaii - quite a difference to the community and culture that young children in Ferguson, New Orleans etc are/will grow up in. Of course the protesters are not entirely blameless in this whole affair, but imagine beind between the ages of around 10-21 in Ferguson at the minute, are you really going to be looking at the events that have transpired and thinking 'I can make something of myself in this country', let alone get a role in politics? You can always blame the belief and attitude of the person themselves, but that's very easy to do when you're a hetrosexual, white, British male. Ferguson is an extreme set of circumstances of something which seems to occur throughout the states. I don't have the answer to who is to blame for that, be it society, be it history, whatever. But Obama being president isn't going to change any of that, unfortunatley.
Merging Cultures Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 Fair point of course for many, but let's not use that as an excuse for this case. Michael Brown had graduated from high school a few days before, he was wearing the latest Cardinals jersey when he decided to physically assault the convenience store clerk and steal a box of cigars from his shop. He seemed to have all the opportunities everyone else had whatever colour he was. I don't really know where to start with this. Graduating High School in America is a really big thing, so maybe he had a future, we was off to trade school... perhaps he could be President on day /s. He had the latest Cardinals Jersey... OK. Looks like he was wearing a white t-shirt in the surveillance video minutes before he died. Also, does that mean he has a lot of money? 'Jerseys' are expensive in the US, but we don't know if he bought it, stole it, got a knock-off... it could be one of three t-shirts he has? I wouldn't say from the 'facts' you presented that he had the same opportunities everyone else had whatever colour he was. I say 'facts' because from the surveillance video, minutes before his death, it looks like he is wearing a plan white t-shirt, and I am not quite sure the relevance of saying he owns a 'jersey' therefore he has the same opportunities... http://youtu.be/mkOfqIXkBRE?t=1m27s
Guest MattP Posted 26 November 2014 Posted 26 November 2014 Graduating High School in America is a really big thing, so maybe he had a future, we was off to trade school... perhaps he could be President on day /s. He had the latest Cardinals Jersey... OK. Looks like he was wearing a white t-shirt in the surveillance video minutes before he died. Also, does that mean he has a lot of money? 'Jerseys' are expensive in the US, but we don't know if he bought it, stole it, got a knock-off... it could be one of three t-shirts he has? I wouldn't say from the 'facts' you presented that he had the same opportunities everyone else had whatever colour he was. I say 'facts' because from the surveillance video, minutes before his death, it looks like he is wearing a plan white t-shirt, and I am not quite sure the relevance of saying he owns a 'jersey' therefore he has the same opportunities... None of us know the whole facts, I was just putting forward a few things that seem to show this guy wasn't exactly in a position of desperation some want to portray (not you, many in media) Whatever the situation the lad brought the police attention onto himself that day, not the colour of skin, he chose to rob a store, no one else, he chose to attack a store clerk who 'disrespected him' no one else, - he decided to walk upon a police officer that rightly had started to question him about this, no one else, we can blame 'society' all we want but this is clearly a case of an individual's misbehaviour. I could probably even get on the board the 'poverty' or 'desperation' angle if he was stealing bread and milk rather than a box of cigars. The excuse of 'I'm black and from a poor town' can only go so far and certainly doesn't extend to excusing theft. Anyway onwards and upwards, the police are going to drop job application forms tonight from helicopters to try and disperse the crowds.
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