David Guiza Posted 19 August 2014 Posted 19 August 2014 Didn't notice another topic for this; although it is early in the morning and I may just have missed it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28832462 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/18/ferguson-michael-brown-shot-multiple-times-autopsy-shows-including-in-head Shocking that this kind of thing can be going on in what is supposedly the most forward thinking nation in the world. It also raises the debate as to what, if anything, will Obama say or do about the situation. As a black American, is he damned if he does and damned if he doesn't take severe action? I also read an interesting article which stated that during Hoover's tenure as President there was an investigation into the FBI in the US, which found that they committed more felony's than they actually prevented. Hoover dismissed the report and nothing more was said about the matter.
David Guiza Posted 19 August 2014 Author Posted 19 August 2014 Forward thinking?...I don't think so. I couldn't agree more. But, if you were to believe most mainstream media and television you'd think that the American was the only way to live. I personally think they're more backward than the vast majority of Europe at the very least. Their policies on sentencing and defence particularly are appalling. And i wont get started on religion either!
leicsmac Posted 19 August 2014 Posted 19 August 2014 I think this all shows three things: - How deep the racial divide still is in many areas of the US - How powerful interests manipulate the mainstream media into broadcasting only the message they themselves want and how social media is a good counter to it - How flawed the relationship is between law enforcement and most of the populace in many areas of the US I couldn't agree more. But, if you were to believe most mainstream media and television you'd think that the American was the only way to live. I personally think they're more backward than the vast majority of Europe at the very least. Their policies on sentencing and defence particularly are appalling. And i wont get started on religion either! Agree with this. The nation was born out of the barrel of a gun, the pursuit of material wealth and the idea of pursuing one religion above all others (under the deception of 'religious freedom'), and those ideas are ingrained into most of the national psyche. That being said, America is so diverse in terms of its society there's many great places, too.
David Guiza Posted 19 August 2014 Author Posted 19 August 2014 I think this all shows three things: - How deep the racial divide still is in many areas of the US - How powerful interests manipulate the mainstream media into broadcasting only the message they themselves want and how social media is a good counter to it - How flawed the relationship is between law enforcement and most of the populace in many areas of the US Agree with this. The nation was born out of the barrel of a gun, the pursuit of material wealth and the idea of pursuing one religion above all others (under the deception of 'religious freedom'), and those ideas are ingrained into most of the national psyche. That being said, America is so diverse in terms of its society there's many great places, too. Completely agree. I've had a fantastic time on the few occasions I've been lucky enough to go to the states, and wouldn't change that for the world. However, the places I visited were the likes of NYC, Vegas and Miami. Hardly the sort of places where you'd get a true feeling of the American people (with the exception of the rougher parts of Miami and New York state). With America being so vast and diverse there is always going to cultural and social differences throughout. It's just tragic to see the suffering in Ferguson/Other places across the states, when the country as a whole is supposedly the greatest country in the world.
pSinatra Posted 19 August 2014 Posted 19 August 2014 Completely agree. I've had a fantastic time on the few occasions I've been lucky enough to go to the states, and wouldn't change that for the world. However, the places I visited were the likes of NYC, Vegas and Miami. Hardly the sort of places where you'd get a true feeling of the American people (with the exception of the rougher parts of Miami and New York state). With America being so vast and diverse there is always going to cultural and social differences throughout. It's just tragic to see the suffering in Ferguson/Other places across the states, when the country as a whole is supposedly the greatest country in the world. This is pretty much what I think about the States, as I have visited several times........mainly Boston & New York. In the cities, things seem pretty much how you would expect. But stray outside of these areas & there is a sense of a huge underclass & poverty on a scale we could never experience in this country. I have had that feeling for many years, but it was the New Orleans floods that appalled me most & cemented my opinion. How could a country so proud of themselves allow the suffering that followed the floods. We talk about the haves & the have nots in this country, and how the divide is growing bigger all the time. The poor in this country don't compare to the poor in the states. We have poverty, but look at places like Detroit.......where a whole city is bankrupt & a slum area. On my last visit, I was talking to my American aunt about being self-employed & the sort of income I make. I was suggesting that I wasn't in to make big money, but to simply make a living & to provide a valuable service. She couldn't get her head around it & was advising me on various ways to expand & make more money. I just wasn't interested & found it quite offensive - like she was belittling what I had already achieved & ignorant of the fact that I am happy doing what I do. My uncle, who has lived in America for 20+ years understood my position & said that he used to be the same.......until he moved to America. He said it is a major part of their culture, it's all about the money & that wealth is only measured in monetary terms. There seems to be a serious lack of compassion. Look at the shit storm that followed Obama's attempts to provide minimum standards of health care for all. I love going to the States........but I couldn't possibly live there. We share a language (kind of) but we are not alike.
leicsmac Posted 19 August 2014 Posted 19 August 2014 This is pretty much what I think about the States, as I have visited several times........mainly Boston & New York. In the cities, things seem pretty much how you would expect. But stray outside of these areas & there is a sense of a huge underclass & poverty on a scale we could never experience in this country. I have had that feeling for many years, but it was the New Orleans floods that appalled me most & cemented my opinion. How could a country so proud of themselves allow the suffering that followed the floods. We talk about the haves & the have nots in this country, and how the divide is growing bigger all the time. The poor in this country don't compare to the poor in the states. We have poverty, but look at places like Detroit.......where a whole city is bankrupt & a slum area. On my last visit, I was talking to my American aunt about being self-employed & the sort of income I make. I was suggesting that I wasn't in to make big money, but to simply make a living & to provide a valuable service. She couldn't get her head around it & was advising me on various ways to expand & make more money. I just wasn't interested & found it quite offensive - like she was belittling what I had already achieved & ignorant of the fact that I am happy doing what I do. My uncle, who has lived in America for 20+ years understood my position & said that he used to be the same.......until he moved to America. He said it is a major part of their culture, it's all about the money & that wealth is only measured in monetary terms. There seems to be a serious lack of compassion. Look at the shit storm that followed Obama's attempts to provide minimum standards of health care for all. I love going to the States........but I couldn't possibly live there. We share a language (kind of) but we are not alike. Indeed - it's a lack of compassion that masquerades as individualism. The US is a wonderful place to visit, but not to stay. I think that that has a lot to do with the culture of materialism there too - the idea of money and getting as much of it as possible corrupts everything. Add the influence of fundamentalist religion and adherence to Scripture and suddenly such things have a 'divine' mandate, too - which makes it truly dangerous. But, as has been said before, there are parts and people that do show compassion there.
Guest MattP Posted 19 August 2014 Posted 19 August 2014 To be fair a there is nothing a black man can't achieve in America, they can become president despite being quite an inept politician as Barack Obama has proved. I'm not sure a lot of European countries would vote in a black leader yet. I love the place personally and that's from time on the liberal West Coast all the way to the Bible belt in Georgia. People have perceptions about America that have been exaggerated across the World especially when it comes to the Southern states. It's still horrifically obsessed with race mind, the fact whole cities can go up like this over a death most people think was justified (nbc poll) says a lot. It both ways mind. You look at the killing of Channon Christian and her bf and the Wichita massacres and it looks quite clear race wasn't played on because the perpetrators were black. Maybe they need a South Africa truth and reconciliation style project to try and move forward.
Head Honcho Posted 19 August 2014 Posted 19 August 2014 To be fair a there is nothing a black man can't achieve in America, they can become president despite being quite an inept politician as Barack Obama has proved. I'm not sure a lot of European countries would vote in a black leader yet. I love the place personally and that's from time on the liberal West Coast all the way to the Bible belt in Georgia. People have perceptions about America that have been exaggerated across the World especially when it comes to the Southern states. It's still horrifically obsessed with race mind, the fact whole cities can go up like this over a death most people think was justified (nbc poll) says a lot. It both ways mind. You look at the killing of Channon Christian and her bf and the Wichita massacres and it looks quite clear race wasn't played on because the perpetrators were black. Maybe they need a South Africa truth and reconciliation style project to try and move forward. I pretty much agree with much of this. As for all the dogooders giving the police a hard time...it's simple! Don't break the law and you won't be shot at. Guy on the radio just now saying "if you throw as much as a water bottle at the police they will tear gas you"...HELLO!
leicsmac Posted 19 August 2014 Posted 19 August 2014 To be fair a there is nothing a black man can't achieve in America, they can become president despite being quite an inept politician as Barack Obama has proved. I'm not sure a lot of European countries would vote in a black leader yet. I love the place personally and that's from time on the liberal West Coast all the way to the Bible belt in Georgia. People have perceptions about America that have been exaggerated across the World especially when it comes to the Southern states. It's still horrifically obsessed with race mind, the fact whole cities can go up like this over a death most people think was justified (nbc poll) says a lot. It both ways mind. You look at the killing of Channon Christian and her bf and the Wichita massacres and it looks quite clear race wasn't played on because the perpetrators were black. Maybe they need a South Africa truth and reconciliation style project to try and move forward. I actually think these days it's less about race (though that's still a part of it) and more about people using their authority to give people they don't like a hard time, no matter what their skin colour is. I wouldn't discount the obvious and powerful influence the Southern states and religious fundamentalists have over the political process there, though. And the materialism means that some of the poverty there wouldn't look out of place in a third world country. Wouldn't mind seeing the source for the NBC poll, from what I've been reading the killing was wholly unjustified - man was unarmed, a reasonable distance away from the cop and moving away, according to the coroner and eyewitnesses. I pretty much agree with much of this. As for all the dogooders giving the police a hard time...it's simple! Don't break the law and you won't be shot at. Guy on the radio just now saying "if you throw as much as a water bottle at the police they will tear gas you"...HELLO! If you're someone the police doesn't like in some places there, you don't have to break the law to become a target. There's so much mistrust there due to past abuse of power and response on both sides and lack of accountability - it's not as black and white as you make out.
Guest MattP Posted 19 August 2014 Posted 19 August 2014 Wouldn't mind seeing the source for the NBC poll, from what I've been reading the killing was wholly unjustified - man was unarmed, a reasonable distance away from the cop and moving away, according to the coroner and eyewitnesses. Will try and find it when I'm on the PC. The poll was actually to show the disparancy between race. Something like 85% of whites believed it was justified compared to 57% of blacks. Both were in the majority though so we probably shouldn't fall into the usual trap of thinking the protectors represent a majority.
leicsmac Posted 19 August 2014 Posted 19 August 2014 Will try and find it when I'm on the PC. The poll was actually to show the disparancy between race. Something like 85% of whites believed it was justified compared to 57% of blacks. Both were in the majority though so we probably shouldn't fall into the usual trap of thinking the protectors represent a majority. That doesn't surprise me. Think back to the OJ trial poll when measured between white and black people. Still so much division there.
Harry - LCFC Posted 19 August 2014 Posted 19 August 2014 They are obsessed by race. When I was watching the news over there the commentators they invited in for discussion felt the need to announce what their race before explaining their point of view. They kept talking about 'White America' and 'Black America' - with that kind of attitude there's always space for racism to drift in if people think that races naturally behave differently. Plenty of people using this case for their own ends too. Often just fuelling the white v black notion, which isn't helping.
bovril Posted 19 August 2014 Posted 19 August 2014 I love the idea of America. That you can make something of yourself if you are Indian-American, Jewish-American, Polish-American whatever. Call me naive but I believe that still exists to a large extent. In that sense they are not so obsessed with nationality and borders as the Europeans are. I don't know that violence in Ferguson and other places is purely about race. There's a whole undercurrent of fear and mistrust across the country, people live so far apart and don't even know their neighbours. Arguments are settled with guns. Skin colour exacerbates the situation.
leicsmac Posted 25 November 2014 Posted 25 November 2014 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30188737 Feel free to come out of the 1950's and join the rest of us in the 21st Century any time, Missouri. No rush.
Samilktray Posted 25 November 2014 Posted 25 November 2014 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30188737 Feel free to come out of the 1950's and join the rest of us in the 21st Century any time, Missouri. No rush. And the worst thing is the scumbag has apparently made enough money on sympathy donations from the public to live a very comfortable life
David Guiza Posted 25 November 2014 Author Posted 25 November 2014 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30188737 Feel free to come out of the 1950's and join the rest of us in the 21st Century any time, Missouri. No rush. Horrendous decision. Not entirely sure how anyone can justify that; it's very easy at times to play the race card, but it's decisions like this that make it so.
Guest MattP Posted 25 November 2014 Posted 25 November 2014 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30188737 Feel free to come out of the 1950's and join the rest of us in the 21st Century any time, Missouri. No rush. From my reading I can see why they came to the decision, the witness testimony makes it a hard call for me. If you want to just throw people in prison because you might get called racist I'll pass on joining the 21st century.
Jon the Hat Posted 25 November 2014 Posted 25 November 2014 From my reading I can see why they came to the decision, the witness testimony makes it a hard call for me. If you want to just throw people in prison because you might get called racist I'll pass on joining the 21st century. The press is playing it usual game of winding things up - photos of the guy when he was a kid, not telling us he just robbed a store, barely sharing the evidence the grand jury heard at all. If you are on that Grand Jury, and the witnesses tell you that this man charged at a policeman, you have photos of said policeman with facial bruising from being attacked, then it seems a fair judgement to me. Personally I find a lot of the coverage and protesting and rioting to be more likely to influence the outcome adversely to Policeman, and potentially to Justice.
leicsmac Posted 25 November 2014 Posted 25 November 2014 From my reading I can see why they came to the decision, the witness testimony makes it a hard call for me. If you want to just throw people in prison because you might get called racist I'll pass on joining the 21st century. I think at the very least it should have gone to trial. There was enough probable cause for that, though evidently the grand jury didn't agree, for reasons known only to them, and so it goes. I also think that sticking pinhole cameras on cops will help with cases like this in the future. The really bad thing about this is that whether morally or legally right or wrong it's a massive double win for the white supremacist crowd. 'Their' man (white authority figure) got off, and when the inevitable unrest over this verdict occurs they can point all the fingers they like and say, "See? I told you they were animals..." Depressing times.
Darkon84 Posted 25 November 2014 Posted 25 November 2014 Soooooooo, ummmm yea. That's definitely the correct way to react to something you don't agree with http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30190224
leicsmac Posted 25 November 2014 Posted 25 November 2014 Soooooooo, ummmm yea. That's definitely the correct way to react to something you don't agree with http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30190224 Yeah, it's not good and those involved are doing themselves no favours by acting like this. That being said, police abusing their authority is a big issue in the US, and this is a key case highlighting it. It's frustrating really, as I said in a different thread the really bad thing about this is that whether morally or legally right or wrong it's a massive double win for the white supremacist crowd. 'Their' man (white authority figure) got off, and when the inevitable unrest over this verdict occurs they can point all the fingers they like and say, "See? I told you they were animals..."
Leeds Fox Posted 25 November 2014 Posted 25 November 2014 Sometimes American policing, especially firearms related reminds me of when you see civil unrest in a 3rd world country and the military are just running around, with no direct or plan. It seems like a situation of, a few cops holding weapons, all itching to pull the trigger because that's what they do the job for, to have that pistol in their hands in a stand off. They want to be in that position, but when it happens, nobody actually knows what to do, then all of a sudden, bang, and one of them has fired a round into a suspect, often very prematurely in a situation which could've had a less devastating ending. My point is a general statement and not aimed particularly at this scenario.
DB11 Posted 25 November 2014 Posted 25 November 2014 Reminds me of how this incident in West Midlands where a teenager with a fake gun was "2mm" away from being shot dead How quick does the officer pull the gun?!
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