The Ferguson Situation

[purpleronnie]

Surprise suprise Matt focusing on a theft instead of the death of a man and a nice 'joke' at the jobless too.

[Finnegan]

I'm pretty sure most of the people I see wearing football tops around town aren't the affluent, well to do, comfortably wealthy types.

[Guest MattP]

Surprise suprise Matt focusing on a theft instead of the death of a man and a nice 'joke' at the jobless too.

 

I think the only man less qualified to comment on how black people from poor towns feel apart from me would be you.

[purpleronnie]

I think the only man less qualified to comment on how black people from poor towns feel apart from me would be you.

Hold on matt just move those goalposts a little more.

 

I haven't commented though have I unlike your good self, but I have no doubt living in various parts of America for over a decade, working with people from poor neighbourhoods on chicago's south side and visiting fellow workers in downing houston one of Americas most violent neighbourhoods doesn't give me a little knowledge on the subject.

[MooseBreath]

Is Obama really black? Who care's.

Edgy.

[Jordan]

None of us know the whole facts, I was just putting forward a few things that seem to show this guy wasn't exactly in a position of desperation some want to portray (not you, many in media)

Whatever the situation the lad brought the police attention onto himself that day, not the colour of skin, he chose to rob a store, no one else, he chose to attack a store clerk who 'disrespected him' no one else, - he decided to walk upon a police officer that rightly had started to question him about this, no one else, we can blame 'society' all we want but this is clearly a case of an individual's misbehaviour.

I could probably even get on the board the 'poverty' or 'desperation' angle if he was stealing bread and milk rather than a box of cigars. The excuse of 'I'm black and from a poor town' can only go so far and certainly doesn't extend to excusing theft.

Anyway onwards and upwards, the police are going to drop job application forms tonight from helicopters to try and disperse the crowds.

Let me put forward a few things to you, then.

First, stop acting like the whole city of Ferguson is in flames. It isn't. Rioting isn't smart, and looting is even more stupid, but that's been confined so far to just a few blocks in the town. That's missing the point, anyway.

Michael Brown wasn't acting like an angel, but he was still unarmed and the crime he was suspected of at the time was a mere robbery.

-Do you believe Darren Wilson's testimony is reliable?

-If Wilson's testimony is at least somewhat reliable, do you think the 3rd round of fire from him was necessary or excessive force? Was Wilson's life and health in danger at that time? Should Wilson have pursued Brown on foot at that time?

-Do you think there's anything he could have done differently that would have still led to him doing his job effectively, without killing Brown? Do you think what he did was good police work? Do you think there's at least probable cause (not guilt, just PC) for a crime there (even if it's "only" manslaughter?)

-Do you think it's fair that black people in Ferguson (and other nearby communities) are exploited by the cash-strapped St. Louis County cops as sources of revenue, and are slapped with parking tickets, traffic violations, and the like at an absurdly high rate?

-Do you think black people in Ferguson should be upset that they are stopped and/or harassed by the police at a rate well above what should be normal for their population and the crime rate of their population?

-Do you think St. Louis County's response to the initial wave of protests was fair, or was it excessive and militarized?

-Do you think DA McCulloch was a fair option to lead the prosecution in this case (considering his connections to the St. Louis Count PD, and that Missouri Gov. Nixon asked McCulloch to recuse himself from the case)?

-Do you find anything unusual at all with the way this grand jury proceeded, compared to standard practices of grand jury cases?

-Do you think the public are perhaps also upset that Missouri state statutes are interpreted as giving police officers quite large leeway to shoot to kill? Do you think people are upset that over the last 12 years, St. Louis County police have fatally shot 14 people, and only four of those incidents went to grand juries, and not one of those 14 incidents went to trial?

-Do you think black men in Ferguson, young and old, are really giving a shit about "if Obama can do it, so can you!" when the cops are in their face once again?

Most of the people in Ferguson that are protesting aren't criminals, but they still have to deal with their police as I they are so.

[Merging Cultures]

None of us know the whole facts, I was just putting forward a few things that seem to show this guy wasn't exactly in a position of desperation some want to portray (not you, many in media)

 

Whatever the situation the lad brought the police attention onto himself that day, not the colour of skin, he chose to rob a store, no one else, he chose to attack a store clerk who 'disrespected him' no one else, - he decided to walk upon a police officer that rightly had started to question him about this, no one else, we can blame 'society' all we want but this is clearly a case of an individual's misbehaviour.

 

I could probably even get on the board the 'poverty' or 'desperation' angle if he was stealing bread and milk rather than a box of cigars. The excuse of 'I'm black and from a poor town' can only go so far and certainly doesn't extend to excusing theft.

 

Anyway onwards and upwards, the police are going to drop job application forms tonight from helicopters to try and disperse the crowds.

 

I don't think he is being portrayed as being desperate by anyone, I've not seen it in the media. Stealing 'cigars' is not an act of desperation. I was responding to:

 

There is nothing stopping young black men from going to school, getting an education and regenerating their own society. What stops them is their own paranoid scepticism that somehow if they were the most intelligent, qualified person on the face of the planet they wouldnt get looked at because of their race. This isnt true. The only thing that stops anyone getting anywhere is self attitude.

 

and 

 

Terrific post.

 

I'm not an Obama fan but hope his legacy would be that young black people will think 'If we can president, we can be anything'.

 

Sadly, I don't think it's going to be the case.

 

You and Bettsj2 suggest that we are all equal and Black people can do anything, if they just put their mind to it. Which is patently wrong. We are not all equal. There is racism. But also, the socio-economic situation many people find themselves in is an inhibiting factor to them reaching their full potential, as I mentioned previously. Michael Brown couldn't be President, he couldn't be 'anything' he wanted to be. He was going to go to a trade college, which is great. He could have had a good living working a trade. But regardless of what or why he stole something, the physical abuse he gave to the clerk, and whether he 'walk[ed] upon a police officer', the police in America shoot too quickly, and too many times. Unfortunately, black male youth tend to make up an disproportionate amount of those shootings. 

 

I can understand why people are rioting. There is injustice. They are let down by the system, they do not feel they can progress.

 

The white poor don't riot because they are told that it is other people's fault. It is the blacks, the hispanics, the immigrants. So, instead of rising up to demand a system that would benefit them, e.g. healthcare, they carry guns in fear. They want a fence to keep people out. They want to stop people from sponging off the state, forgetting that medical expenses are the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US, and that many people suffer from malnutrition and obesity from the low quality food they can barely afford.

 

Long gone are the days of making it in the US with $100 in your back pocket. People are not equal any more.

[Bettsj2]

and a lack of food, clean clothes, guidance, family support, books etc. Not to mention peer pressure and the threat of violence if they do not fit in.

It's a bit more complicated than you are making out.

Given, as you say, how rife gang culture, crime, violence etc are in the US, then it does take something monumental to break out of that cycle. I heard someone the other day say it quite well, "If you grow up in a mining town, you aspire to be a miner. If you grow up in the hood, you aspire to be a drug dealer. It is all many kids know." The schools where these children go are failing them. I lived in Baltimore City, all our friends with school age children moved out to the suburbs. There is 'white flight' in the cities. My tax bill kept going up, because there were fewer and fewer people paying taxes. Which meant cuts to education and support services.

I mentored a kid who's mum managed to get a City council job. It was low paying, but it was a regular pay check. She worked very hard to keep that job, there were thousands of others who were waiting behind her. She struggled to get out to the suburbs, where her son now has a better education. They have made their own luck. She is now dating a guy who I don't really like. I think he could bring them down. I hope she leaves him before it is too late. For many people, they do not have these options. They are stuck in a cycle that they cannot get out of.

It isn't as easy as saying, the only thing that stops anyone getting anywhere is self attitude. I'd say that is true for many of us from the privileged side of life.

A fantastic post and point of view. I cannot agree but very much respect what you say.

[MPH]

Let me put forward a few things to you, then.

First, stop acting like the whole city of Ferguson is in flames. It isn't. Rioting isn't smart, and looting is even more stupid, but that's been confined so far to just a few blocks in the town. That's missing the point, anyway.

Michael Brown wasn't acting like an angel, but he was still unarmed and the crime he was suspected of at the time was a mere robbery.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He fought the cop for his Gun. There is forensic evidence of a fight INSIDE the police car. For someone Who was walking  in the road, Being unarmed himself is imaterial if you are reaching inside a police car and fighting the officer for his gun... and as for the robbery, that didnt even come in to play - This police officer didnt even know about that and he was NOT a suspect in the robbery at that time.

 

 

Countless witness statements have been proven as lies by the forensic evidence. Even the Independant forensic experts and indepentent Autopsy reports comissioned by the family.

 

 

There are even witnesses who have confessed to not even being at the scene  when confonted  with the Forensic reports!

[Merging Cultures]

He fought the cop for his Gun. There is forensic evidence of a fight INSIDE the police car. For someone Who was walking in the road, Being unarmed himself is imaterial if you are reaching inside a police car and fighting the officer for his gun... and as for the robbery, that didnt even come in to play - This police officer didnt even know about that and he was NOT a suspect in the robbery at that time.

Countless witness statements have been proven as lies by the forensic evidence. Even the Independant forensic experts and indepentent Autopsy reports comissioned by the family.

There are even witnesses who have confessed to not even being at the scene when confonted with the Forensic reports!

His DNA was find inside the car. That does not necessarily prove a fight occurred, who instigated it if it did happen, or that Brown was trying to get his gun. In Wilson's ABC interview he said Brown's hand was preventing him pulling the trigger, it was on the gun. There was blood found on the gun, but he was shot and blood splatters. Were there finger prints? Grease from his hand? Something to indicate he handled it?

I think a lot of people are confused that an unarmed guy, who just committed a robbery, would disrespect and then conduct an unprovoked attack on a policeman. There are no indications he was on drugs at the time, so his judgement want clouded. Brown would be aware that the police officer would shoot, tazer or beat him up, and no way would he get away with attacking man officer. So why would he have done it? Was he provoked? Did the Office instigate the attack? Did Brown really go for the gun? Once shot, why would Brown turn and charge at Wilson?

It's as hard to believe Wilson as it is some of the witnesses.

I'm not saying that Brown wasn't aggressive or didn't attack Wilson, clearly something happened the police don't go out looking to shoot people. I just don't think the evidence is as strong as as suggested, and that the officer needed to shoot as many times as he did. A proper trial would have been appropriate.

[Merging Cultures]

A fantastic post and point of view. I cannot agree but very much respect what you say.

Which bit don't you agree with? That there are external factors and socioeconomic conditions that prevent people from reaching their full potential?

I'd very much like to know what qualifications and job you do. If you don't have a PhD, are not a billionaire and the King of England I will be bitterly disappointed.

Right now, I've been offered a job in Kenya, but my wife's job is here and we have young kids we don't want to move right now. These are my external factors preventing me from earning more money. I know I could do the job, I have self confidence, but I am not at my full potential.

Now apply that same idea to a black young person in inner city US. The likelihood is their father is in prison or doesn't live at home, they've had no father figure. The people who are successful and get respect are the gang members, the drug dealers, the pimps. They attend a school that is severely under funded. They don't have enough food and can't concentrate in class. This sounds extreme, but it really isn't in many parts of inner city America.

Success really does start with education. Unfortunately for a lot of kids, parents do not value education as much as they should, or they are in a school system that is not performing. So the responsibility falls back on children? You've obviously forgotten the amount of times you faked illness to avoid going to school, or lied to your teacher about the homework you didn't do. But British inner city schools, on the whole are a lot better than American inner city ones. There is a three tier system in the US. The inner City schools, the suburban schools and the private schools. Private schools are much more affordable and popular in the US than the UK. We were looking at them for my daughter, and we work nonprofit. The standard of education is obviously better than the inner city schools near our house. Unfortunately, they are still out of reach for the majority of people, as is moving to the suburbs.

So, now what does a kid with poor qualifications aspire to do? How can they reach their full potential? Of course the answer is to have a good attitude /s

[Wrighty22]

I'd say he deserved what he got. Bloody savage.

[MC Prussian]

Anybody else already mentioned the Tamir Rice incident in Cleveland?

Bored black kid toys around with a harmless air gun, police pull up, shoot him within seconds upon arrival.

 

Find it hard to believe?

 

There's even a surveillance video:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/26/tamir-rice-video-shows-co_n_6227552.html

[Bettsj2]

Which bit don't you agree with? That there are external factors and socioeconomic conditions that prevent period from reaching their full potential?

I'd very much like to know what qualifications and job you do. If you don't have a PhD, are not a billionaire and the King of England I will be bitterly disappointed.

You gave an example of someone getting out of the cycle but then said many dont have that opportunity. If you have potential, I believe only you can truly hold it back. My point of view is that everyone does have the opportunity if they choose to pursue it and not accept the hand thats dealt to them.

I grew up in Beaumont Leys and left school with 3 GCSE A-C grades. Career advisors and teachers wrote me off as being someone who would not achieve anything. I'm mixed race and have been the victim of racism. What I didnt do, is conform to the stereotype and hang around on street corners smoking weed and getting into fights. A couple of my friends did end up in jail and one of them is sadly now not with us as a direct result of hanging with the wrong crowd. I saw that you can make something out of nothing and went and did it.

I have an insurance consultancy business that is doing very well, have just started a used car business that will double my income and am in the process of putting together plans for a new Boxing gym in the south west. I'm most definitely not the King of England but living where I do (Carlyon Bay, Cornwall), I do feel like it when I take my morning run along the coastal path. Speaking of which its time for. Your tone suggests my posts pissed you off so if thats the case I apologise, no offence meant. I hope my answers to your questions satisfy you enough to be a little less patronising and agressive to any reply you choose to post.

If not, well fvck it. Have a good day anyway.

[leicsmac]

You gave an example of someone getting out of the cycle but then said many dont have that opportunity. If you have potential, I believe only you can truly hold it back. My point of view is that everyone does have the opportunity if they choose to pursue it and not accept the hand thats dealt to them.

I grew up in Beaumont Leys and left school with 3 GCSE A-C grades. Career advisors and teachers wrote me off as being someone who would not achieve anything. I'm mixed race and have been the victim of racism. What I didnt do, is conform to the stereotype and hang around on street corners smoking weed and getting into fights. A couple of my friends did end up in jail and one of them is sadly now not with us as a direct result of hanging with the wrong crowd. I saw that you can make something out of nothing and went and did it.

I have an insurance consultancy business that is doing very well, have just started a used car business that will double my income and am in the process of putting together plans for a new Boxing gym in the south west. I'm most definitely not the King of England but living where I do (Carlyon Bay, Cornwall), I do feel like it when I take my morning run along the coastal path. Speaking of which its time for. Your tone suggests my posts pissed you off so if thats the case I apologise, no offence meant. I hope my answers to your questions satisfy you enough to be a little less patronising and agressive to any reply you choose to post.

If not, well fvck it. Have a good day anyway.

 

I think the point that MC was making was that your purely anecdotal evidence does not rack up against the compelling empirical evidence regarding 'making something out of nothing', as you say.

 

Personal responsibility is a fine thing and it can help you get out of a bad starting situation, but there are occasions where the deck is stacked far, far too much against a person.

 

I actually think it's more the case of people giving you a helping hand over here than in the US, too, which can help people if they truly want to better themselves. Stateside, most of the time you're on your own.

[Merging Cultures]

You gave an example of someone getting out of the cycle but then said many dont have that opportunity. If you have potential, I believe only you can truly hold it back. My point of view is that everyone does have the opportunity if they choose to pursue it and not accept the hand thats dealt to them.

I grew up in Beaumont Leys and left school with 3 GCSE A-C grades. Career advisors and teachers wrote me off as being someone who would not achieve anything. I'm mixed race and have been the victim of racism. What I didnt do, is conform to the stereotype and hang around on street corners smoking weed and getting into fights. A couple of my friends did end up in jail and one of them is sadly now not with us as a direct result of hanging with the wrong crowd. I saw that you can make something out of nothing and went and did it.

I have an insurance consultancy business that is doing very well, have just started a used car business that will double my income and am in the process of putting together plans for a new Boxing gym in the south west. I'm most definitely not the King of England but living where I do (Carlyon Bay, Cornwall), I do feel like it when I take my morning run along the coastal path. Speaking of which its time for. Your tone suggests my posts pissed you off so if thats the case I apologise, no offence meant. I hope my answers to your questions satisfy you enough to be a little less patronising and agressive to any reply you choose to post.

If not, well fvck it. Have a good day anyway.

I think you said it well. "If you have potential". Not many people have the potential you do. Only a small percentage of people are entrepreneurs. So the majority will seek employment, and if they don't have the education or skills required, or if simply there aren't any jobs available.

Personally, I know if I hadn't gone to a decent school and has parents who pushed me, I wouldn't have done much with my life. I probably wouldn't have gone into crime though.

Sorry, if you thought my posts were aggressive and patronising. I actually thought the same of yours and MattPs. I also think they are a bit blinkered and not founded in what happens in the real world. The attitude "I've done it, so anyone can" is just unrealistic.

[Buce]

Purely out of curiosity, MC, and I apologise if the question is intrusive, but what socio-economic background does your wife come from? From the bits and pieces you've spoken of her she appears to be highly successful in her career.

[Merging Cultures]

Purely out of curiosity, MC, and I apologise if the question is intrusive, but what socio-economic background does your wife come from? From the bits and pieces you've spoken of her she appears to be highly successful in her career.

 

Great question, but explaining her situation is a long story. TL;DR Kingston, Jamaica, lower-middle class, Mum a teacher, extended family have businesses, got good grades, went to Uni (eventually), was helped with fees for her masters in the US.

 

She grew up in Kingston, Jamaica in a lower-middle class neighbourhood. Her Mum was a teacher and her Dad was an accountant and a Pastor. Her Mum has retired now, and she is a Pastor of a small Church in Balaclava, St. Elizabeth (v rural). Her Dad passed away when she was only 18. On her Mum's side, the family managed to secure a plot of land, many many years ago, in their rural community. That plot was a sugar plantation, which supplied sugar to Appleton Rum, as sugar prices dropped they moved in to transporting sugar cane and rum for Appleton. Because her Mum was a teacher, my wife and her sister, were able to attend the very well respected Catholic all girls school. They wouldn't have been able to afford to otherwise. She did well at school, and she got a 3.99 GPA but was initially rejected from Uni of West Indies, the only Uni on the Island at the time, due to so much competition (and probably corruption). In the end, they knew someone at the Uni who helped them plead their case, and she was accepted. Uni was free back in those days, she lived at home and didn't do anything other than study. She graduated with a 2:1, or whatever the US type equivalent is, and she went to work for a Christian missions group in Montego Bay. While there she met a lot of people and made friends. When she decided to go to Uni, she chose a Christian college in California, but didn't have the fees and her Mum couldn't afford to pay either. Fortunately, one of the people she met at the missions group committed to helping her.

 

She has seen people who are more than capable try to make something of themselves, but they haven't caught the breaks that she did. We now help sponsor some kids in Jamaica to hopefully give them some of the breaks she received.

[Darkon84]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDLpiEWlFZ0

 

STILL don't know why videos wont load up on here properly for me at the moment. I've got a feeling it's just that the work computer is pretty crap.

 

Anyway, it's about 8 minutes of footage from 'the front line' by a local, showing the looting, arson, abuse etc, including one brave woman sticking up for her business against some looters.

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

They could of at least pretended there was some form of justice with a mock trial, but no, nobody to answer to, so why bother.

[Merging Cultures]

Another failure to indict a policeman for the death of an unarmed man.

Sure, this guy talked back to the policemen. He was fed up of being harassed. As I see it, he had his hands up when he was swarmed by police. He said repeatedly he couldn't breathe, as the policeman puts him in a banned choke hold.

The NYC Office of the Chief Medical Examiner ruled it a homicide and said death was caused by “compression of the neck [choke hold], compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police.”

So, we know how he died and the video shows us who did it.

How does that not make it to trial?

The Grand Jury needed 12 votes, and was comprised of 14 white and 9 'non-white' people. That's how it didn't make it to trial.

[Buce]

Another failure to indict a policeman for the death of an unarmed man.

Sure, this guy talked back to the policemen. He was fed up of being harassed. As I see it, he had his hands up when he was swarmed by police. He said repeatedly he couldn't breathe, as the policeman puts him in a banned choke hold.

The NYC Office of the Chief Medical Examiner ruled it a homicide and said death was caused by “compression of the neck [choke hold], compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police.”

So, we know how he died and the video shows us who did it.

How does that not make it to trial?

The Grand Jury needed 12 votes, and was comprised of 14 white and 9 'non-white' people. That's how it didn't make it to trial.

If he couldn't breathe, where did he find the breath to repeatedly say so?

[Merging Cultures]

If he couldn't breathe, where did he find the breath to repeatedly say so?

He couldn't breathe. He died. That's pretty clear cut. You can't argue against the medical examiners report.

I've been in situations that I was struggling to breathe, bottom of a ruck for instance. My chest was compressed, I couldn't get a full breath, but I remember saying 'I can't breathe' and people moved so I could breathe. Unfortunately, the police didn't listen.

[Buce]

He couldn't breathe. He died. That's pretty clear cut. You can't argue against the medical examiners report.

I've been in situations that I was struggling to breathe, bottom of a ruck for instance. My chest was compressed, I couldn't get a full breath, but I remember saying 'I can't breathe' and people moved so I could breathe. Unfortunately, the police didn't listen.

Fair enough.

I wasn't being facetious, it was a genuine question regarding something which appeared to be counterintuitive.

[Merging Cultures]

Fair enough.

I wasn't being facetious, it was a genuine question regarding something which appeared to be counterintuitive.

 

! I wasn't sure!! Tone is very difficult to read on FT!!

 

It does appear to be counter intuitive, so I understand the police point of view, I've said it about my kids when they are 'choking' on something. But at the same time, they could have eased off a little, just moved. The ruck didn't stop because I couldn't breath. Space was made. The police ignored him, pushed his head into the pavement, and caused his death.

 

The next case up is the 12 year old with the BB gun. The kid (and the parents) were stupid for allowing him to have a BB gun and also for removing the orange tip. The world is a stupid place!