Guest ttfn Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 Were the texts sent from a personal or work phone? Work, which is why this is an issue. It's certainly arguable that not only were they using racist language on a company phone (which in itself is presumably sackable) but they've also been racially discriminating against certain prospective signings. Either way, the sacking is now clearly justified, regardless of the context in which these texts were found. My only concern is the rush to judgement and the fact that Mackay's career is pretty much over because he said wrote and received some things which have May or may not betray his true character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseBreath Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 You're looking at it from your perspective, still. Try and imagine being Jewish or black and reading those texts having experienced a lifetime of prejudice. I'm not big on taking offence on behalf of other people who I presume should be taking offence really. Frankie Boyle makes jokes about Aids, cancer, baby p and a whole range of inappropriate subjects which certainly have the potential to cause offence and the audience finds it funny. Mackay and Moody make private jokes about similarly inappropriate subjects and it's not funny anymore. It seems inconsistent to me. Like others have said, it's all about context, and we don't know the context of these texts, so I can't see how we can judge. You talked earlier about progress. For me, applying a blanket state of offence just in case others are offended is not making progress. If anything it's patronising towards those affected and mocks the real progress we've made towards removing actual discriminatory racism from society. Maybe progress now means finally moving on towards a post-racism society, where the issue is no longer given special status and is instead treated on the equal terms with other types of prejudice about which the likes of Boyle are allowed to make jokes without being automatically vilified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisFilter Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 Post-racism can only exist post-racism and that's never going to happen. Ever. And it's not a blanket state of offense. It's entirely appropriate offense. Most importantly, I am offended by his texts. Personally offended. And I'm white. I'm offended because they're contemptuous of people I care deeply about. He can **** off. You sound like you might be from a generation or two older than mine. There's an argument that it should be acceptable to be 'un-PC' if you're a bit older because the world has changed from when views on such things are formed, but I don't buy that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseBreath Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 Post-racism can only exist post-racism and that's never going to happen. Ever. And it's not a blanket state of offense. It's entirely appropriate offense. Most importantly, I am offended by his texts. Personally offended. And I'm white. I'm offended because they're contemptuous of people I care deeply about. He can **** off. You sound like you might be from a generation or two older than mine. There's an argument that it should be acceptable to be 'un-PC' if you're a bit older because the world has changed from when views on such things are formed, but I don't buy that. Fair enough mate. I don't understand why I should be more offended by jokes based on inappropriate racism than I am by jokes based on other inappropriate subjects, but you're more than entitled to be so if that's what you want. On your last point, I was born in the mid-80s and grew up in Leicester, so I belong to a time and place where real discriminatory racism was very much in the spotlight. I suppose I cling on to the traditional British self-depracating sense of humour where people don't take themselves so seriously. I'll make no apologies for that as I firmly believe we're better off with that attitude than with the hyper-sensitivity that a lot of younger (and older) folk go with today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitchandro Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 Predictable reaction really. The fact is that some people have made successful mainstream careers out of inappropriate jokes, so evidently society is not as against them as they appear to suddenly become in situations like this. When these kind of jokes are made in private between understanding friends it is hardly crime of the century, is it? Maybe we'd be better off if people didn't find humour in such things, but they do. I didn't even know the word "chinky" was considered racist to be honest. Have to agree with Moose on this one tbh. I'm not really comfortable with all this drama over something so minor frankly. These were texts messages between 2 people. The only reason anyone is offended is because some cretin has made them public. That make those people the real villains of the piece, not those who exchanged private jokes or comments. Comments like that have absolutely no relevance to the wider world at all, you might think they are bellends fo saying such things but they are 2 insignificant people who have worked at insignificant, crap football clubs. There is no evidence to suggest that any discrimination has been carried into their jobs or in any walk of life outside private conversations. If, and I stress IF certain people are truly offended by the comments of two blokes they have never met and who have no real effect on their lives, then the harm has actually been caused by those who have made these comments public. Malky Mackay shouldn't have to apologise for these things because (as far as we know) he's never said them to anyone's face. On the other hand, he has just made himself look pretty stupid in that interview. He has denied that what he said is 'banter' (his agent has probably stupidly told him that he must avoid calling it that as the LMA bloke got in trouble for it). Well, the only other explanation is that you are prejudiced then, isn't it? Maybe he's a racist, maybe he isn't. But if he is he's just one racist and only privately, so anyone that really cares is a bit of an idiot. The amount of outrage that is sparked by a few words of one individual is rather sad. Especially as a lot of them could be considered distasteful jokes that, as Moosey said, have been made by many comedians (you know it's that thing called a sense of humour) Get on with your lives, people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisFilter Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 I think the drama is a good thing. It underlines that racism in any form is unacceptable in modern Britain. That's a big step forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ttfn Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 He's talking about potential employees in a derogatory way based on the colour of their skin. Not sure how that is anything other than contempt. I think you're over-simplifying it. Certainly, in the context we have been provided with the messages (employee sends another employee a message suggesting that he's not particularly impressed with the racial background of prospective employees) it looks absolutely dreadful: completely abhorrent and frankly if that is a true reflection of his beliefs he can't seriously expect to be employed in this country again. In the context of a friendship which has doubtless experienced and seen a lot of the racism apparently endemic in football it is POSSIBLE to see these messages differently, and stating that one or a couple of text messages indicate "utter contempt" for a whole race of people seems a bit (ironically) prejudicial, particularly when Mackay has encouraged the development of a number of black players throughout his career. Look, it may be that MM is actually a massive discriminatory racist who looks down on people of other races (and lord knows given what is apparent in the financial Impropriety at Cardiff I have no sympathy for him) but I am extremely reluctant to write a man off as a pariah on the basis of some texts he sent to a friend, the context for which we have absolutely no certainty over. The secret footballer wrote a column for The Guardian earlier today saying that he thinks that 90% of managers would have sent or received similar. Hanging MM out to dry is not the answer. The answer is a root-and -branch education of young players and managers so that acceptance of this degree of "banter" is eliminated, not flogging people in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grewks Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 Clearly Mackay is a racist young Farah, just look at his summer signings at cardiff....... Frazier Campbell - Non white Stephen Caulker - Non white Full back from france - Non white The jokes are no worse than you would hear from the likes of Frankie Boyle, jimmy carr etc. The two men are fools for doing it though, especially on a work phone. But...the matter was private. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleckneymike Posted 22 August 2014 Author Share Posted 22 August 2014 Clearly Mackay is a racist young Farah, just look at his summer signings at cardiff....... Frazier Campbell - Non white Stephen Caulker - Non white Full back from france - Non white The jokes are no worse than you would hear from the likes of Frankie Boyle, jimmy carr etc. The two men are fools for doing it though, especially on a work phone. But...the matter was private. So it is ok to be racist provided no one knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzell Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 Clearly Mackay is a racist young Farah, just look at his summer signings at cardiff....... Frazier Campbell - Non white Stephen Caulker - Non white Full back from france - Non white The jokes are no worse than you would hear from the likes of Frankie Boyle, jimmy carr etc. The two men are fools for doing it though, especially on a work phone. But...the matter was private. Still doesn't make the matter right though does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisFilter Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 So it is ok to be racist provided no one knows?This appears to be the message coming from a number on here. Racism is OK in private, and it's OK because some comedians can be racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacamion Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 This appears to be the message coming from a number on here. Racism is OK in private, and it's OK because some comedians can be racist. I think that's a misrepresentation of what others have said. You appear to be determined to see the worst in people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisFilter Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 My quest against bigotry has turned me into a bigot. Oh, the humanity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ttfn Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 This appears to be the message coming from a number on here. Racism is OK in private, and it's OK because some comedians can be racist. Literally nobody is saying that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisFilter Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 Literally nobody is saying that.Clearly I was being facetious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzell Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 I think that's a misrepresentation of what others have said. You appear to be determined to see the worst in people. Or maybe he's trying to get the point across that racism all together is wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacamion Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 Or maybe he's trying to get the point across that racism all together is wrong? I don't think anyone would disagree that racism is wrong. Who in here said it was right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisFilter Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 I don't think anyone would disagree that racism is wrong. Who in here said it was right? There's been plenty of people trying to provide context which, they assert, makes it less of a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grewks Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 So it is ok to be racist provided no one knows? Everyone offends different races on a daily basis, which is 'racist'. Are you any different? There's been plenty of people trying to provide context which, they assert, makes it less of a problem. Are you not racist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisFilter Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 Everyone offends different races on a daily basis, which is 'racist'. Are you any different? Are you not racist? I imagine on some level I have deep-seated cultural racism in me, but am I knowingly racist? No, absolutely not. But I live in a very multicultural place, have a very mixed group of friends and work in a very mixed office. I'm willing to accept that someone older from a more monocultural background will be more susceptible to prejudism born of ignorance. That's why I think it's important to engage on the subject and not let it slide. Belive it or not, I regularly bite my tongue on here when someone posts up something questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unabomber Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 Malky Mackay - Vincent Tan's revenge Sounds like a great sequel film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grewks Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 I imagine on some level I have deep-seated cultural racism in me, but am I knowingly racist? No, absolutely not. But I live in a very multicultural place, have a very mixed group of friends and work in a very mixed office. I'm willing to accept that someone older from a more monocultural background will be more susceptible to prejudism born of ignorance. That's why I think it's important to engage on the subject and not let it slide. Belive it or not, I regularly bite my tongue on here when someone posts up something questionable. By admitting you are 'not a racist'...do you know how many religions and races you have just offended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisFilter Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 By admitting you are 'not a racist'...do you know how many religions and races you have just offended?Eh? I think you're trying to be a bit too clever about it. Name a religion whose followers would be offended by someone not being racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grewks Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 Eh? I think you're trying to be a bit too clever about it. Name a religion whose followers would be offended by someone not being racist. Calvinists? Nazi's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacamion Posted 22 August 2014 Share Posted 22 August 2014 I'm willing to accept that someone older from a more monocultural background will be more susceptible to prejudism born of ignorance. Generalisations about people you don't know, based on partial knowledge of them - is that not also questionable? Or maybe we are all guilty of it occasionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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