Malky Mackay - Vincent Tan's revenge

[Charl91]

And while we're on the subject... 'good natured humour', I'm not sure the majority of black people would find a joke based on the stereotype that black people are criminals that good natured. Are you?

 

 

Oh **** off. Racist jokes are racist. The clue is in the name. The whole point of a racist joke is that it denigrates other races, IE implies that the subject of the joke is inferior. By your own quoted definition, that's racist.

I'm not for a second suggesting that someone who thinks it's OK to make jokes about black people would then actively discriminate against them in the real world, but I'd suggest it more likely than someone who would cringe at the very thought of telling a racist joke.

As for your question about whether I've laughed at a joke about Scots or the Irish or blondes. Yeah, of course I have, I'm not some paragon of virtue. I just think racist jokes are a ****'s preserve. I probably told racist jokes as a kid, but I grew up.

 

I can't argue with you if you are unable to actually form a rational argument. Who are you to decide that some stereotype-based jokes are acceptable and yet others aren't? If I'm racist, then by your own definition you are Xenophonic, because you've laughed at an Irish joke. The gaps in your logic are outstanding.

 

. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLKvYB7CeAY. 

 

 

And yes, black people do also find jokes funny. Is he racist too?

[ChrisFilter]

My point was that I laughed at those jokes when I was younger. But my wording was poor, I'll grant you.

Are you really suggesting that a white person telling a joke is no different to a black person telling it? Next you'll be saying 'but black people say nigger in rap songs!'.

Have you seen the documentary where they took Ron Atkinson to the US to try and explain why he was seen as racist? I suspect you'd be as confused as him by it all if you can't see why Mackay's texts are considered unacceptable.

[Charl91]

My point was that I laughed at those jokes when I was younger. But my wording was poor, I'll grant you.

Are you really suggesting that a white person telling a joke is no different to a black person telling it? Next you'll be saying 'but black people say nigger in rap songs!'.

Have you seen the documentary where they took Ron Atkinson to the US to try and explain why he was seen as racist? I suspect you'd be as confused as him by it all if you can't see why Mackay's texts are considered unacceptable.

 

So, only Irish people can make Irish jokes? You're still not helping your argument. You're also saying that I "can't see why Mackays texts are considered unacceptable", which isn't helping to convince me that you can actually read, because I explained and agreed they weren't acceptable quite a few posts back.

 

Context is important, which you seem to be missing out on. If a white person calls a black stranger "nigger", then yes that's racist. If they're singing along to a rap song? Not racist. And yes, I am happy to make stereotypical jokes to friends of mine who different ethnicities/nationalities, because I know they find it amusing. If I thought they were likely to be offended, then I clearly wouldn't.

 

Everything and anything can be the butt of a joke. By saying that you can make fun of certain demographics, but you can't make fun of group X or group Y, you're actually creating an us-vs-them mentality. There's a huge different between making a joke and holding dogmatic racist beliefs, and if you can't grasp that, then there's nothing I can really do to convince you otherwise.

 

I don't disagree that Mackay is probably racist. However, that doesn't mean that you are racist if you make stereotypical jokes.

[Haydos]

Why is Malky getting ALL the shit for this? Didn't he send like 1 of those texts?

 

It's that other bellend Moody who should be getting 99% of the grief.

[ChrisFilter]

Of course I can grasp that, but that's not actually the point you've been making. And I actually explicitly said that there was a difference in a previous post.

You reveal the problem I'm commenting on in that post. You'd tell a person of another ethnicity a joke about their ethnic group in some circumstances but not others. But I bet you'd tell the joke you feel is inappropriate for them to another white person.

I'm not missing context. You are, as evidenced by posting that video to support your argument.

And to your first point, telling Irish jokes is xenophobic, yes. I think they're equally unacceptable. If an Irish person chooses to tell an Irish joke, that's up to them.

For the record, I've never heard a funny racist joke that I can recall. They're all thinly-veiled contempt. Even the ones you'd refer to as good natured.

[Mark_w]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2732188/Malky-Mackay-called-Cardiff-City-Malaysian-owner-Vincent-Tan-chink.html

 

'A week later came another illuminating exchange, offering what appears to be a startling observation about Mackay. At the time, Mackay was concerned that a player they were pursuing had been linked with a rival club. He relayed his feelings to Moody, who replied: ‘He told me he had an offer to go there but will never accept because the manager is a racist. Thankfully he hasn’t met you.’'

 

But obviously, the people who know Malky, know he isn't a racist.

[Nick]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2732188/Malky-Mackay-called-Cardiff-City-Malaysian-owner-Vincent-Tan-chink.html

 

'A week later came another illuminating exchange, offering what appears to be a startling observation about Mackay. At the time, Mackay was concerned that a player they were pursuing had been linked with a rival club. He relayed his feelings to Moody, who replied: ‘He told me he had an offer to go there but will never accept because the manager is a racist. Thankfully he hasn’t met you.’'

 

But obviously, the people who know Malky, know he isn't a racist.

 

[ChrisFilter]

I think the weirdest thing about all of this is that it's the bloody Mail leading the charge. How times have changed.

[Tielemans63]

At the end of the day they are all clearly absolute bell ends. The texts sent by both Moody and Mackay were unacceptable in any professional context but the way Tan has gone about his business has been disgusting. He's entitled to hold a grievance against Mackay but to do it so publicly and to time the revelations so deliberately as to deny him his next job just as he's about to sign the contract is a pretty shitty thing to do.

As for Irish jokes, only the Irish or the sons of Irish immigrants can tell them without it being racist. Any of you lot tell them and I'll go straight to your employer with a print out from this forum.

[ChrisFilter]

I don't think it was Cardiff who leaked them.

[Tielemans63]

I don't think it was Cardiff who leaked them.

I'd imagine, in a round about way, it will have definitely come from Cardiff / Tan. The Daily Mail is simply the medium.

[MooseBreath]

telling Irish jokes is xenophobic, yes. I think they're equally unacceptable.

Glad you finally addressed this point. Can we assume then that by extension you find any joke relating to any specific nationality equally unacceptable? What about other personal characteristics, height, weight, hair colour, gender, tone of voice, choice of clothing, taste in music etc? Is it just that you find any joke for which another person is the butt equally unacceptable?

Although I would find it a bit ridiculous, I'd be able to understand that stance a lot more comfortably than singling out race as the one and only way in which people could be offended by jokes.

[ChrisFilter]

Glad you finally addressed this point. Can we assume then that by extension you find any joke relating to any specific nationality equally unacceptable? What about other personal characteristics, height, weight, hair colour, gender, tone of voice, choice of clothing, taste in music etc? Is it just that you find any joke for which another person is the butt equally unacceptable?

Although I would find it a bit ridiculous, I'd be able to understand that stance a lot more comfortably than singling out race as the one and only way in which people could be offended by jokes.

As I get older I find those sorts of jokes less and less funny, but I don't disagree that there's are differing degrees of prejudice and bigotry. It's all about context, as people keep saying.

Racist, sexist and homophobic jokes are particularly unacceptable because of their historical context. People of minority sexualities/ethnicities and women have suffered years and years of prejudice and abuse which is perpetuated in these jokes.

It's really not hard to understand. You just have to take a step back from your preconceived notions of what is and isn't appropriate to you because it's not about you, it's about the subject of the jokes/contempt/jokes.

[MooseBreath]

As I get older I find those sorts of jokes less and less funny, but I don't disagree that there's are differing degrees of prejudice and bigotry. It's all about context, as people keep saying.

Racist, sexist and homophobic jokes are particularly unacceptable because of their historical context. People of minority sexualities/ethnicities and women have suffered years and years of prejudice and abuse which is perpetuated in these jokes.

It's really not hard to understand. You just have to take a step back from your preconceived notions of what is and isn't appropriate to you because it's not about you, it's about the subject of the jokes/contempt/jokes.

I understand the historical context argument and I think it's perfectly reasonable if applied equally and proportionately. The trouble is there isn't really any group of people who haven't suffered prejudice at some point in history, so who decides what is still relevant and to what extent? If you make a joke about black people being slaves society would be outraged, but you make a joke about white people being slaves and nobody would care. This despite the fact that both black people and white people have been victims of the slave trade throughout history. So who decides one is more relevant than the other, and why? Surely anti-racism is essentially about racial equality while what we're doing now is elevating the historical suffering of one race above another.

It seems backwards to me. Now that we've been so successful in eliminating real discriminatory racism, progress from here would be drawing a line in the sand and moving forward as equals. That's how you get to post-racism.

[ChrisFilter]

I understand the historical context argument and I think it's perfectly reasonable if applied equally and proportionately. The trouble is there isn't really any group of people who haven't suffered prejudice at some point in history, so who decides what is still relevant and to what extent? If you make a joke about black people being slaves society would be outraged, but you make a joke about white people being slaves and nobody would care. This despite the fact that both black people and white people have been victims of the slave trade throughout history. So who decides one is more relevant than the other, and why? Surely anti-racism is essentially about racial equality while what we're doing now is elevating the historical suffering of one race above another.

It seems backwards to me. Now that we've been so successful in eliminating real discriminatory racism, progress from here would be drawing a line in the sand and moving forward as equals. That's how you get to post-racism.

 

I'm not sure where to begin with this. 

 

Can you really, honestly not see a difference between the historical abuse of and prejudice towards black people at the hands of white people than the other way around?

 

And as for the suggestion that discriminatory racism has been eliminated... my god. Really?! It's alive, well and still near ever-present.

 

Again, stop looking at this from your own perspective.

[Nick]

I understand the historical context argument and I think it's perfectly reasonable if applied equally and proportionately. The trouble is there isn't really any group of people who haven't suffered prejudice at some point in history, so who decides what is still relevant and to what extent? If you make a joke about black people being slaves society would be outraged, but you make a joke about white people being slaves and nobody would care. This despite the fact that both black people and white people have been victims of the slave trade throughout history. So who decides one is more relevant than the other, and why? Surely anti-racism is essentially about racial equality while what we're doing now is elevating the historical suffering of one race above another.

It seems backwards to me. Now that we've been so successful in eliminating real discriminatory racism, progress from here would be drawing a line in the sand and moving forward as equals. That's how you get to post-racism.

 

Wow.

[Stadt]

Too many people forcing their own view about others' views on others.

[Guest MattP]

I understand the historical context argument and I think it's perfectly reasonable if applied equally and proportionately. The trouble is there isn't really any group of people who haven't suffered prejudice at some point in history, so who decides what is still relevant and to what extent? If you make a joke about black people being slaves society would be outraged, but you make a joke about white people being slaves and nobody would care. This despite the fact that both black people and white people have been victims of the slave trade throughout history. So who decides one is more relevant than the other, and why? Surely anti-racism is essentially about racial equality while what we're doing now is elevating the historical suffering of one race above another.

It seems backwards to me. Now that we've been so successful in eliminating real discriminatory racism, progress from here would be drawing a line in the sand and moving forward as equals. That's how you get to post-racism.

Great post. The way people want to pick and choose historical events to suit their own one eye closed viewpoint of what is acceptable in the modern day verges on the ridiculous.

You would think Malky was Jimmy Savile the way some are reacting.

[purpleronnie]

You would think Malky was Jimmy Savile the way some are reacting.

 

Who would that be?  Or is just a throwaway meaningless comparison?

[MooseBreath]

Can you really, honestly not see a difference between the historical abuse of and prejudice towards black people at the hands of white people than the other way around?

Absolutely not. Why should there be a difference? Prejudice is prejudice, suffering is suffering. It doesn't become more or less important depending on race.

[purpleronnie]

Absolutely not. Why should there be a difference? Prejudice is prejudice, suffering is suffering. It doesn't become more or less important depending on race.

The fact apartied was still happening in the 1990's makes it very real to many who lived through it, and the white slaves often were slaved by their fellow whites.  So a comment about black slaves is very real to a lot of people still, white slavery wouldn't be.

[Nick]

Great post. The way people want to pick and choose historical events to suit their own one eye closed viewpoint of what is acceptable in the modern day verges on the ridiculous.

You would think Malky was Jimmy Savile the way some are reacting.

 

Nonsense!

[ChrisFilter]

Absolutely not. Why should there be a difference? Prejudice is prejudice, suffering is suffering. It doesn't become more or less important depending on race.

I hadn't realised you were an idiot. I wouldn't have wasted my time trying to educate you had I known. Unbelievable.

[MooseBreath]

I hadn't realised you were an idiot. I wouldn't have wasted my time trying to educate you had I known. Unbelievable.

It's a shame you've had to resort to personal insults really as with the exception of a couple of the usual pointless contributions I had thought this was quite a good natured debate. I should probably bow out now if this is the direction it's going to take.

A final thought though. There have been many more white slaves than black throughout history and there are still many thousands of white slaves today, including in this country. Take a trip into town after the football later and pop into a "sauna" or two and you can have a chat with some of them if you like.

[ChrisFilter]

It's a shame you've had to resort to personal insults really as with the exception of a couple of the usual pointless contributions I had thought this was quite a good natured debate. I should probably bow out now if this is the direction it's going to take.

A final thought though. There have been many more white slaves than black throughout history and there are still many thousands of white slaves today, including in this country. Take a trip into town after the football later and pop into a "sauna" or two and you can have a chat with some of them if you like.

I shouldn't have, but what you're saying is either idiocy or something more sinister.