Malky Mackay - Vincent Tan's revenge

[Strokes]

I hate everyone equally.

[MooseBreath]

But I live in a very multicultural place, have a very mixed group of friends and work in a very mixed office. I'm willing to accept that someone older from a more monocultural background will be more susceptible to prejudism born of ignorance. That's why I think it's important to engage on the subject and not let it slide.

I'm not sure you'll get much change out of this angle since you're posting on a Leicester forum and most of us on here have lived for the majority of our lives in the Leicester area, and hence have just as much a multicultural upbringing as yourself. I would also say youre not actually engaging with the subject at all. You've decided that any suggestion of racism regardless of the severity and the context should be met with blanket disapproval and instant vilification of the perpetrator. That's a very narrow minded view of the issue in my opinion. Other posters are engaging with the subject in much greater depth by acknowledging that there are different levels of racism and that context is important.

Assuming you're quite young, and not to be patronising, I would think in time you'll probably learn that minor issues like this call for a bit of common sense and perspective rather than instant judgement and vilification.

[Grewks]

I'm not sure you'll get much change out of this angle since you're posting on a Leicester forum and most of us on here have lived for the majority of our lives in the Leicester area, and hence have just as much a multicultural upbringing as yourself. I would also say youre not actually engaging with the subject at all. You've decided that any suggestion of racism regardless of the severity and the context should be met with blanket disapproval and instant vilification of the perpetrator. That's a very narrow minded view of the issue in my opinion. Other posters are engaging with the subject in much greater depth by acknowledging that there are different levels of racism and that context is important.

Assuming you're quite young, and not to be patronising, I would think in time you'll probably learn that minor issues like this call for a bit of common sense and perspective rather than instant judgement and vilification.

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

Who hasn't ever sent or received a text message which is racist/sexist etc? I get them all the time from people.

[ChrisFilter]

Exactly.

Who hasn't ever sent or received a text message which is racist/sexist etc? I get them all the time from people.

Me. Sounds like you need some new friends.

Seriously, it's not acceptable to me. And it shouldn't be to you.

[Legend_in_blue]

There are far more serious issues going on in the world right now.

Calm down everyone!

[ChrisFilter]

I'm not sure you'll get much change out of this angle since you're posting on a Leicester forum and most of us on here have lived for the majority of our lives in the Leicester area, and hence have just as much a multicultural upbringing as yourself. I would also say youre not actually engaging with the subject at all. You've decided that any suggestion of racism regardless of the severity and the context should be met with blanket disapproval and instant vilification of the perpetrator. That's a very narrow minded view of the issue in my opinion. Other posters are engaging with the subject in much greater depth by acknowledging that there are different levels of racism and that context is important.

Assuming you're quite young, and not to be patronising, I would think in time you'll probably learn that minor issues like this call for a bit of common sense and perspective rather than instant judgement and vilification.

You're younger than me.

I'm not for a second suggesting that there aren't levels of prejudice, and that context doesn't change things, but what I am saying is that all racism is abhorrent.

So Malky Mackay is a little bit racist in private with his mates. That doesn't make him BNP material but, by my way of thinking, that does make him a ****. It also makes a position working with people of different ethnicities very difficult for him.

I'm not calling for his head, but I'm absolutely going to argue that what he's said in private is deserving of the ire he's on the receiving end of.

I'm also going to continue to call people out when they're suggesting that the texts are somehow ok. They're not. Not in my book.

[ChrisFilter]

Generalisations about people you don't know, based on partial knowledge of them - is that not also questionable?

Or maybe we are all guilty of it occasionally.

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not referring to anyone on here. I'm just saying that differing degrees of prejudice based on a person's situation are understandable. Never acceptable, but certainly more understandable if someone has grown up in a very monocultural society or has bigoted parents and peers, or the like.

[Grewks]

You're younger than me.

I'm not for a second suggesting that there aren't levels of prejudice, and that context doesn't change things, but what I am saying is that all racism is abhorrent.

So Malky Mackay is a little bit racist in private with his mates. That doesn't make him BNP material but, by my way of thinking, that does make him a ****. It also makes a position working with people of different ethnicities very difficult for him.

I'm not calling for his head, but I'm absolutely going to argue that what he's said in private is deserving of the ire he's on the receiving end of.

I'm also going to continue to call people out when they're suggesting that the texts are somehow ok. They're not. Not in my book.

 

 

No one is saying his texts are ok....they are just putting it into perspective.

 

If his actions make him a ****, then everyone in the world is a ****. 

 

One way or another, everyone is a racist, simply by being an atheist, christian, catholic, sikh, muslim etc offends other religions and therefore racist. That isn't being clever, I am just using your perspective of 'every racist is ****'.

[ChrisFilter]

No one is saying his texts are ok....they are just putting it into perspective.

If his actions make him a ****, then everyone in the world is a ****.

One way or another, everyone is a racist, simply by being an atheist, christian, catholic, sikh, muslim etc offends other religions and therefore racist. That isn't being clever, I am just using your perspective of 'every racist is ****'.

Yeah, I still don't think that argument works.

I don't think I lack perspective. I'm just saying he's a **** regardless of the context in which he sent those texts. Simple.

[Grewks]

Yeah, I still don't think that argument works.

I don't think I lack perspective. I'm just saying he's a **** regardless of the context in which he sent those texts. Simple.

 

Why doesn't it work?

 

By simply being a christian you are considered a racist by a muslim.

 

By simply being an atheist you are considered a racist by a christian.

 

 

Just because 'you don't think it works like that' doesn't mean it isn't the case.

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

Vincent Tan once called me a "honky"

[Corky]

Malky's not sexist, some of his best wives are women.

[Mark_w]

Why doesn't it work?

 

By simply being a christian you are considered a racist by a muslim.

 

By simply being an atheist you are considered a racist by a christian.

 

 

Just because 'you don't think it works like that' doesn't mean it isn't the case.

 

That is, without a shadow of a doubt, the least intelligent post I've read on any forum ever. Congratulations.

[Charl91]

I think there needs to be a distinction between "racist jokes" and "being racist" - context is very important. I make "racist" jokes now and again in the same way that I make jokes about the Scots, the Irish, Americans, Women, Blondes, Gingers, short people, fat people, old people, Christians, Muslims, my friends, my family, myself etc. I wouldn't say that I am "racist" anymore then I hate ginger people. Most jokes are just utilising a stereotype for humorous effect; if you're among close friends who know you well enough, then they'll be aware that you're not actually biased against demographic X, Y or Z. Most stereotypes are ridiculous without any logic or reason behind them, but that doesn't mean you endorse these views when you poke fun at them. 

 

That being said, there's a time and a place, and in a professional environment and on your work phone certainly isn't one of them. Also, I think there is a fine line between jokes and just being racist/sexist and I'm pretty sure they crossed it, and I get the impression that they genuinely are racist. Complaining about "no white faces" in the squad is pretty pathetic, in fact most of the comments were pretty disgusting.

 

I must admit, I have laughed at the "black monopoly board" picture before though.

[Grewks]

That is, without a shadow of a doubt, the least intelligent post I've read on any forum ever. Congratulations.

 

 

it is true though.

 

 

Just look at the palestine/israeli conflict in Gaza. I'd advise you to watch the Louis Theroux documentary regarding the extreme zionist group out there, and how by simply belonging to one religion, you're offending another.

[Mark_w]

it is true though.

 

 

Just look at the palestine/israeli conflict in Gaza. I'd advise you to watch the Louis Theroux documentary regarding the extreme zionist group out there, and how by simply belonging to one religion, you're offending another.

 

No you're not offending an entire religion, you're offending a few idiotic nutjobs (for example - an extreme zionist group). Your original claim that believing in one religion is racist towards another is nonsense.

 

I am an atheist, but I'm not prejudice against religious people, I don't automatically assume I'm better than religious people and I don't treat religious people differently because they're religious. I'm certain that 99% of religious people wouldn't consider me racist for it. Similarly, I don't think that a Christian is being racist towards me just because they believe in God. You must be able to see that it's incredibly silly to suggest that 'By simply being a christian you are considered a racist by a muslim. By simply being an atheist you are considered a racist by a christian'.

 

And for the record, if you're trying to condense the Palestine/Israel conflict into Jews think Palestinian Muslims/Christians are racist and vice versa, then you really need a history lesson.

 

 

I think there needs to be a distinction between "racist jokes" and "being racist" - context is very important. I make "racist" jokes now and again in the same way that I make jokes about the Scots, the Irish, Americans, Women, Blondes, Gingers, short people, fat people, old people, Christians, Muslims, my friends, my family, myself etc. I wouldn't say that I am "racist" anymore then I hate ginger people. Most jokes are just utilising a stereotype for humorous effect; if you're among close friends who know you well enough, then they'll be aware that you're not actually biased against demographic X, Y or Z. Most stereotypes are ridiculous without any logic or reason behind them, but that doesn't mean you endorse these views when you poke fun at them.

 

I'm really failing to see how the texts that were being quoted are jokes, they didn't even seem to be attempting humour (other than perhaps the monopoly and agent texts), so that doesn't really hold water.

[ChrisFilter]

I think there needs to be a distinction between "racist jokes" and "being racist" - context is very important. I make "racist" jokes now and again in the same way that I make jokes about the Scots, the Irish, Americans, Women, Blondes, Gingers, short people, fat people, old people, Christians, Muslims, my friends, my family, myself etc. I wouldn't say that I am "racist" anymore then I hate ginger people. Most jokes are just utilising a stereotype for humorous effect; if you're among close friends who know you well enough, then they'll be aware that you're not actually biased against demographic X, Y or Z. Most stereotypes are ridiculous without any logic or reason behind them, but that doesn't mean you endorse these views when you poke fun at them.

That being said, there's a time and a place, and in a professional environment and on your work phone certainly isn't one of them. Also, I think there is a fine line between jokes and just being racist/sexist and I'm pretty sure they crossed it, and I get the impression that they genuinely are racist. Complaining about "no white faces" in the squad is pretty pathetic, in fact most of the comments were pretty disgusting.

I must admit, I have laughed at the "black monopoly board" picture before though.

How is telling racist jokes not racist? The monopoly board 'joke' you admit to finding funny is based on a racial stereotype upheld and reinforced by a majority ethnicity against a minority ethnicity. That is racism. And it's not funny.

[ChrisFilter]

it is true though.

Just look at the palestine/israeli conflict in Gaza. I'd advise you to watch the Louis Theroux documentary regarding the extreme zionist group out there, and how by simply belonging to one religion, you're offending another.

It's not remotely true. It's just that some bigots use religion as a device to breed hate, or are victims of others using religion as said device.

And you seem to be conflating racial and religious prejudice.

[Strokes]

Racial prejudice is a natural way of life, its not specific to whites or brits. By and large this is pretty tame (i still cant see a real nasty element to it) its unsavoury at best and i have seen much worse. What else would you expect from a jock?

[lifted*fox]

That is, without a shadow of a doubt, the least intelligent post I've read on any forum ever. Congratulations.

Indeed, my head almost exploded at how rediculous it is.

[Dr The Singh]

I completely understand what MB is saying but the racism, sexism and homophobia was all performed in a professional context whereby they were talking about who they were going to employ at the club and who they were going to deal with.

For all we know there may be a wider context here behind these messages but it certainly appears that the discussion of these prospective employees in racist terms ("not many white faces") may well constitute actual discriminatory racism as opposed to the use of racist language for ironic or shock value.

I would stress, however, that I'd be mortified to be called a sexist on the back of what I considered a private message to an old friend and colleague telling them to "man up" (which I'm sure is the sort of thing I have sent in the past).

There's a difference between having sympathy for Mackay and empathy for the fact that he's basically had his life ruined by some texts he sent which may or may not reveal his true character.

This!!!

Football already has been tinged with racism. Being from a sikh background and the highlight of lack of Asian footballers in the game and the links to racism particular institutional racism and subconscious racism being a factor, it's bloody concerning a footballer manager is making references about the lack of white players.

This text was under his working capacity, stress, banter etc are all lame excuses.

Having a text about a joke eg Irish, Indian, and Englishman is far different.

[Charl91]

 

 

 

 

I'm really failing to see how the texts that were being quoted are jokes, they didn't even seem to be attempting humour (other than perhaps the monopoly and agent texts), so that doesn't really hold water.

 

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to imply that what he said was a joke nor funny (hence the second part of my post). What they said was clearly out of order, and a different issues, and they should certainly be punished for it. I was just weighing in my opinion and agreeing with others that just because you make a joke which is based on racial (or sexual or national) stereotypes, it doesn't automatically make you racist/sexist/xenophobic.

 

 

How is telling racist jokes not racist? The monopoly board 'joke' you admit to finding funny is based on a racial stereotype upheld and reinforced by a majority ethnicity against a minority ethnicity. That is racism. And it's not funny.

 

noun

1.

a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human raceis superior to any or all others.

 

I don't think you really understand racism, nor humour. Have you never laughed at an Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman joke? A Blonde joke? They're all based on stereotypes too. If I believed in those stereotypes, then yes, I would be racist, however that's clearly not the case, in the same way that I don't believe that gingers are lacking souls or that the Germans are all Nazis. Are you going to claim that I'm also xenophonic, homophobic, prejudice against height, weight and hair colour? It's just a form of shock humour, that some people find entertaining, nothing more.

 

It's all about the context; I wouldn't be foolish enough to make such jokes in front of an audience I didn't know, but I would happily do it amongst friends. It's not just white people who like/make such jokes you know. Quite frankly, your attitude is quite tedious, and I can't tell whether you're being deliberately obtuse or simply naive. It's people like you who actually make standing up to racism difficult, because you insist on crying racist and making a fuss over non-issues, which is demeaning to people who have to deal with actual issues of racism. All you do is undermine the fight against racism, and give Daily Mail readers unnecessary ammunition about "political correctness gone mad" simply because you are unable to differentiate between racism and good natured (albeit slightly edgy) humour.

[ChrisFilter]

Oh **** off. Racist jokes are racist. The clue is in the name. The whole point of a racist joke is that it denigrates other races, IE implies that the subject of the joke is inferior. By your own quoted definition, that's racist.

I'm not for a second suggesting that someone who thinks it's OK to make jokes about black people would then actively discriminate against them in the real world, but I'd suggest it more likely than someone who would cringe at the very thought of telling a racist joke.

As for your question about whether I've laughed at a joke about Scots or the Irish or blondes. Yeah, of course I have, I'm not some paragon of virtue. I just think racist jokes are a ****'s preserve. I probably told racist jokes as a kid, but I grew up.

[ChrisFilter]

And while we're on the subject... 'good natured humour', I'm not sure the majority of black people would find a joke based on the stereotype that black people are criminals that good natured. Are you?

[Nick]

Great thread. I think it's brilliant that we give Moosebreath (freshly back from his latest ban for his putridly prejudice and obnoxious postings) a platform to help us all to understand the fine line between being 'edgy' and 'racist.'