Terror Attack at Canadian Mosque

[Alf Bentley]

53 minutes ago, MattP said:

Just because (in my opinion) we have far more culturally in common with a country doesn't mean that we will discuss news from those countries more than ones that are next to us.

 

We talk about what is presented to us in the new, politics is a prime example and we look at Europe far more than our cultural similars the US aside (and that's because it's the superpower), I can find pages on the French and German elections in this weeks papers near the front page, I can barely find something near the front on the Canadian, New Zealand or Australia elections even when they have had a change of government.

 

The Canadian attack isn't on the front page of the Times today (they do hav a picture of the attacker), the story is shoved onto page 31, the second story in the World section behind the Macron surge that threatens to beat Fillon into second, does that make the Times newspaper racist or not wanting to admit it's prejudice?

 

I don't think it does.

 

This is my last comment on this topic as I find the debate about such events too depressing - particularly the muted reaction of people who express (justified) outrage at similar atrocities committed by Islamists.....and who sometimes use them to stoke Islamophobia. In fact, I find this so depressing that I'm going to take an extended break from FoxesTalk - or FascistTalk, as it sometimes seems to be.

 

Your comments about the press are a red herring. The debate was about the comparative response of people on here.

 

I repeat my assertion that some people are massively more outraged by Islamist extremists killing innocent civilians than about white extremists doing likewise. In fact, some people use Islamist terror attacks to stir up Islamophobic hatred, while downplaying similar atrocities committed by white supremacists (deranged or otherwise).

 

Exhibit A: your posts in this thread, which mainly seek to find excuses for the comparative lack of outrage from "the usual right-wing suspects", to quibble over details, to create diversions about the press & to explain why we're not really bothered about Canada despite its cultural similarity.

 

Compare and contrast with....

 

Exhibit B: Your posts in the thread about the deranged Islamist terrorist who launched an attack in Sydney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis)

-  Bloody lunatic, why doesn't he **** off to Iraq and Syria and fight for IS rather than holding a load of innocents hostage.

- A radical preacher already known to police. What a surprise. Why the hell is he even in Australia?

-  **** getting him alive, send him to his maker.

- looking around the rest of the world, they shouldn't make the mistakes Europe has. I was surprised just how Islamic Sydney was, in Parramatta it was like little Lebanon.

-  Spare a thought for the people of Pakistan as well. The taliban are holding up a school and twenty dead already.

-  The disturbing thing about this Sydney incident is the number of people making excuses for him, some even despite calling he mentally incapable then blaming western policy in the middle east etc. There is no appeasement to evil, didn't we learn this in the 1930s?

-  15 children blown to pieces by Al Queda in Yemen with car bombs.

-  Good luck with getting the Islamic community to root out these people, they won't even grass up their own peadophiles the majority of the time when they know them.

-  We are now in situations where we allow our own innocent citizens to be killed in galling circumtances so we can protect the rights of people who dedicate their lives to inciting people to kill the innocent on the basis of religion and sometimes even in the end carrying out the acts themselves.

 

 

 

[the fox]

2 hours ago, Thracian said:

As I've long favoured: Release them into the Antarctic with a few basics, make them stateless and let the  "Higher Power" decide the outcome. Saves wasting money on maintaining them, gets rid of the problem permanently and justifiably passes the buck rather than turning the law into a murderer. Needn't just apply to terrorists.    

 

  

I have another suggestion. Tape their mouths and mask them, give them weapons and tell them that every one around them is from a religion/ethnicity that they hate and let them have a go at each other. And the winner will be banished to the north pole with no help,food or shelter. Because his last moment in life should be to experience  the feeling of having no food and no shelter in an unknown land after going through a near death experience.

[leicsmac]

36 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

This is my last comment on this topic as I find the debate about such events too depressing - particularly the muted reaction of people who express (justified) outrage at similar atrocities committed by Islamists.....and who sometimes use them to stoke Islamophobia. In fact, I find this so depressing that I'm going to take an extended break from FoxesTalk - or FascistTalk, as it sometimes seems to be.

 

Your comments about the press are a red herring. The debate was about the comparative response of people on here.

 

I repeat my assertion that some people are massively more outraged by Islamist extremists killing innocent civilians than about white extremists doing likewise. In fact, some people use Islamist terror attacks to stir up Islamophobic hatred, while downplaying similar atrocities committed by white supremacists (deranged or otherwise).

 

Exhibit A: your posts in this thread, which mainly seek to find excuses for the comparative lack of outrage from "the usual right-wing suspects", to quibble over details, to create diversions about the press & to explain why we're not really bothered about Canada despite its cultural similarity.

 

Compare and contrast with....

 

Exhibit B: Your posts in the thread about the deranged Islamist terrorist who launched an attack in Sydney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis)

-  Bloody lunatic, why doesn't he **** off to Iraq and Syria and fight for IS rather than holding a load of innocents hostage.

- A radical preacher already known to police. What a surprise. Why the hell is he even in Australia?

-  **** getting him alive, send him to his maker.

- looking around the rest of the world, they shouldn't make the mistakes Europe has. I was surprised just how Islamic Sydney was, in Parramatta it was like little Lebanon.

-  Spare a thought for the people of Pakistan as well. The taliban are holding up a school and twenty dead already.

-  The disturbing thing about this Sydney incident is the number of people making excuses for him, some even despite calling he mentally incapable then blaming western policy in the middle east etc. There is no appeasement to evil, didn't we learn this in the 1930s?

-  15 children blown to pieces by Al Queda in Yemen with car bombs.

-  Good luck with getting the Islamic community to root out these people, they won't even grass up their own peadophiles the majority of the time when they know them.

-  We are now in situations where we allow our own innocent citizens to be killed in galling circumtances so we can protect the rights of people who dedicate their lives to inciting people to kill the innocent on the basis of religion and sometimes even in the end carrying out the acts themselves.

 

 

 

 

All of that being said Alf....I would ask you not to leave.

[StanSP]

Classic Daily Mail. 'Lone wolf' ffs  

[Rincewind]

I have reduced my posting for similar reasons to Alf. I just stare at my PC whilst shaking my head but now resisting the urge to respond. I look to see who has posted and if its the usual suspects I mark the forum as read and get on with my life.

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Classic Daily Mail. 'Lone wolf' ffs  

Don't you get it Stan? He's white, so of course he's a 'lone wolf'. White guys don't have overarching supremacist ideologies...they're just all alone and wrong in the head!

 

/faceitousannoyedrant

[Strokes]

50 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

This is my last comment on this topic as I find the debate about such events too depressing - particularly the muted reaction of people who express (justified) outrage at similar atrocities committed by Islamists.....and who sometimes use them to stoke Islamophobia. In fact, I find this so depressing that I'm going to take an extended break from FoxesTalk - or FascistTalk, as it sometimes seems to be.

 

Your comments about the press are a red herring. The debate was about the comparative response of people on here.

 

I repeat my assertion that some people are massively more outraged by Islamist extremists killing innocent civilians than about white extremists doing likewise. In fact, some people use Islamist terror attacks to stir up Islamophobic hatred, while downplaying similar atrocities committed by white supremacists (deranged or otherwise).

 

Exhibit A: your posts in this thread, which mainly seek to find excuses for the comparative lack of outrage from "the usual right-wing suspects", to quibble over details, to create diversions about the press & to explain why we're not really bothered about Canada despite its cultural similarity.

 

Compare and contrast with....

 

Exhibit B: Your posts in the thread about the deranged Islamist terrorist who launched an attack in Sydney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis)

-  Bloody lunatic, why doesn't he **** off to Iraq and Syria and fight for IS rather than holding a load of innocents hostage.

- A radical preacher already known to police. What a surprise. Why the hell is he even in Australia?

-  **** getting him alive, send him to his maker.

- looking around the rest of the world, they shouldn't make the mistakes Europe has. I was surprised just how Islamic Sydney was, in Parramatta it was like little Lebanon.

-  Spare a thought for the people of Pakistan as well. The taliban are holding up a school and twenty dead already.

-  The disturbing thing about this Sydney incident is the number of people making excuses for him, some even despite calling he mentally incapable then blaming western policy in the middle east etc. There is no appeasement to evil, didn't we learn this in the 1930s?

-  15 children blown to pieces by Al Queda in Yemen with car bombs.

-  Good luck with getting the Islamic community to root out these people, they won't even grass up their own peadophiles the majority of the time when they know them.

-  We are now in situations where we allow our own innocent citizens to be killed in galling circumtances so we can protect the rights of people who dedicate their lives to inciting people to kill the innocent on the basis of religion and sometimes even in the end carrying out the acts themselves.

 

 

 

I notice you didn't post in that thread to condemn it (nor did I). The apathy of post counts is similar, even if the feeling within is stronger. Opinions and strength of feeling can soften as well as harden and that thread is well over two years old, I think you are looking for and finding things that are not there. Sure there are some people on here with strong right wing views, maybe even islamaphobic views but I don't think it's the people you seem to be singling out.

[bovril]

'Terrorist' and 'lone wolf' are not mutually exclusive. I don't really see the issue with the choice of words here.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

This is my last comment on this topic as I find the debate about such events too depressing - particularly the muted reaction of people who express (justified) outrage at similar atrocities committed by Islamists.....and who sometimes use them to stoke Islamophobia. In fact, I find this so depressing that I'm going to take an extended break from FoxesTalk - or FascistTalk, as it sometimes seems to be.

 

Your comments about the press are a red herring. The debate was about the comparative response of people on here.

 

I repeat my assertion that some people are massively more outraged by Islamist extremists killing innocent civilians than about white extremists doing likewise. In fact, some people use Islamist terror attacks to stir up Islamophobic hatred, while downplaying similar atrocities committed by white supremacists (deranged or otherwise).

 

Exhibit A: your posts in this thread, which mainly seek to find excuses for the comparative lack of outrage from "the usual right-wing suspects", to quibble over details, to create diversions about the press & to explain why we're not really bothered about Canada despite its cultural similarity.

 

Compare and contrast with....

 

Exhibit B: Your posts in the thread about the deranged Islamist terrorist who launched an attack in Sydney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis)

-  Bloody lunatic, why doesn't he **** off to Iraq and Syria and fight for IS rather than holding a load of innocents hostage.

- A radical preacher already known to police. What a surprise. Why the hell is he even in Australia?

-  **** getting him alive, send him to his maker.

- looking around the rest of the world, they shouldn't make the mistakes Europe has. I was surprised just how Islamic Sydney was, in Parramatta it was like little Lebanon.

-  Spare a thought for the people of Pakistan as well. The taliban are holding up a school and twenty dead already.

-  The disturbing thing about this Sydney incident is the number of people making excuses for him, some even despite calling he mentally incapable then blaming western policy in the middle east etc. There is no appeasement to evil, didn't we learn this in the 1930s?

-  15 children blown to pieces by Al Queda in Yemen with car bombs.

-  Good luck with getting the Islamic community to root out these people, they won't even grass up their own peadophiles the majority of the time when they know them.

-  We are now in situations where we allow our own innocent citizens to be killed in galling circumtances so we can protect the rights of people who dedicate their lives to inciting people to kill the innocent on the basis of religion and sometimes even in the end carrying out the acts themselves.

 

 

 

Stop throwing your toys out of the pram, it wasn't a "red herring" at all, it was a completely fair point as to the question you asked why we spend more time speaking about European news events than ones Worldwide despite te cultural feeling towards the old commonwealth nations, to which Bovril also made a good point on

"FacistTalk" - ffs. Nothing anyone has said on these forums is anything like facism, you sound as bad as the Lady Gaga's and Madonna's of the World standing on platforms or those on Twitter begging for retweets.

 

As for all your comments you have dragged up from mein 2014, just to be clear, I stand by every single thing I said in it. As I do as well about my feeling we should putting the white guy who shot up that mosque to death, send him to his maker.

[lgfualol]

17 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Classic Daily Mail. 'Lone wolf' ffs  

Bet the Daily Mail are well disappointed it's a white male. 

Also he has the most punchable face. Cowardly ****. 

[Guest MattP]

11 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

I have reduced my posting for similar reasons to Alf. I just stare at my PC whilst shaking my head but now resisting the urge to respond. I look to see who has posted and if its the usual suspects I mark the forum as read and get on with my life.

You claimed the other day Donald Trump has said he is going to torture immigrants.

 

I don't think you will ever be a in a position to accuse others of making things up to stir up hate.

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

Bet the Daily Mail are well disappointed it's a white male. 

Also he has the most punchable face. Cowardly ****. 

Unfortunately whenever we have one of thes situations now we have a load of racists praying for it to be a Muslim and a load of "progressives" begging just as vigourously for it to be a white Westerner who holds far-right views.

 

It's a pretty tragic state of affairs.

[lgfualol]

Just now, MattP said:

Unfortunately whenever we have one of thes situations now we have a load of racists praying for it to be a Muslim and a load of "progressives" begging just as vigourously for it to be a white Westerner.

 

It's a pretty tragic state of affairs.

Indeed. It is pretty sad. It would be nice if everyone stopped being dicks. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, lgfualol said:

Indeed. It is pretty sad. It would be nice if everyone stopped being dicks. 

Trying to remain optimistic - humans are capable of some pretty cool stuff after all - but now I'm honestly not sure if these dividing lines will ever go away, too many power-mongerers maintain that power by making sure they stay there.

[Guest MattP]

19 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Don't you get it Stan? He's white, so of course he's a 'lone wolf'. White guys don't have overarching supremacist ideologies...they're just all alone and wrong in the head!

 

/faceitousannoyedrant

Knowing the Mail they are probably trolling people with this now, it will get them a million re-tweets from people getting upset pointing it out to their friends.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Knowing the Mail they are probably trolling people with this now, it will get them a million re-tweets from people getting upset pointing it out to their friends.

Actually it wouldn't at all surprise me if that were true.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Actually it wouldn't at all surprise me if that were true.

Having been to Northcliffe House, it would surprise me more if it wasn't.

[Buce]

32 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

All of that being said Alf....I would ask you not to leave.

 

Agreed.

 

To paraphrase Edmund Burke, The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to say nothing.

[Guest MattP]

42 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

All of that being said Alf....I would ask you not to leave.

 

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Agreed.

Thirded.

 

It would be a great shame to lose your contributions.

[Thracian]

On 1/30/2017 at 13:10, Finnaldo said:

 

Nationalistic revival & economic woes. I used to think religion was a big issue but I've come to see it as a fairly reductionist way to blame society's greater evils. The race and religion of immigrants is unimportant, it's simply the flavour of the day. The Irish were treated as a threat by the National Front in the 80s, the Polish were seen as a threat in the 2000s by the BNP & EDL. Both Christian countries but seen as a threat because they were outsiders and a minority were dangerous. Muslims immigrants are now seen as a threat by UKIP, and this is even more a golden goose because of some legitimate incidents in integration in some cases, as well as being affiliated with an alien religion.

 

In terms of religion itself, as with a structured society it started as a necessity in human history. It helped early civilisation to put meaning to the sciences and natural phenomenon they simply couldn't understand with primitive technology. As with structured society it's also evolved over human history to have two roles: a means of faith, comfort and communal unity in dark times, and a means of power, domination and corruption over others.

 

I used to be someone who thought that if religion disappeared tomorrow it would make a better world, but I've come to feel that's not true. Personally I'm agnostic, but the way some agnostics and atheists talk of the elimination of religion is very much the same of how anarchists talk of the deconstruction of structured society. Sure one tool of power is gone, but the power hungry will still find a way to dominate and exploit. In an anarchist world the tribes led by the power hungry and vicious will monopolise, in an atheist world, Nationalism, Fascism, Communism, & unhinged Capitalism will hold those who seek to exploit the masses.

 

Back to the point in hand, attacks, atrocities and strife will continue not as long as people hold religious views, that can be comforting, unifying and strengthening to some in difficult times, but as long as people hold religious and ideological beliefs without a grasp of critical thinking, foresight and logical debate. Sadly in 2017 very few of these traits and plenty of religious agitators like Al-Baghdadi and his ISIS cronies, political populists like Trump as well as social media echo chambers on both sides of the political spectrum, alongside the wealthy families nearing oligarchical status.

 

It's sad these things can become desensitised, but that's almost to be expected in a digital world. RIP the lives lost in this tragedy.   

 

 

People are tribe or gang orientated. The evidence is everywhere. Even yesterday on the streets of London and other cities. If people moved away from tribes/gangs/groups and their influence, there wouldn't be any threats to counter but they just can't do it.

 

Whenever someone has a point of view they want to promote it through others.

 

When several people support the same idea they form a group and get someone to lead them which evolves into competition for the leadership and focus for directing the group towards bigger,  better things and potential competition with other groups.

 

So it is with countries, armies, trades unions, religions, the health service etcetera. They all evolve to create conflict and dissention.

 

If people lived independently, away from the grip of groups,  any reasons for conflict would fade away.because you'd leave everyone else to their own thinking and pose no threat to anyone in the race for survival of the fittest/most forceful/most ambitious/most ruthless/most controlling or most anything else.  

 

But it won't happen. People are inevitably lured into groups for security and protection. We are destined to be in conflict ad infinitum. It's the price of "progress".  So whatever gang you're in, you might as well win.

 

Because if you don't, someone else will  

 

 

 

        

[Thracian]

35 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

Indeed. It is pretty sad. It would be nice if everyone stopped being dicks. 

I've not noticed any chance of that since they started walking the Earth. They're programmed to react. 

[StanSP]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

'Terrorist' and 'lone wolf' are not mutually exclusive. I don't really see the issue with the choice of words here.

my point being that if a Muslim person carried it out on a church, it would 99.99% be reported as a terrorist attack or carried out by a terrorist.

 

So why is this not a terrorist carrying out an attack? Why a 'lone wolf'? 

 

As OP said, a terrorist attack is a terrorist attack regardless of race or creed or religion etc. 

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, StanSP said:

my point being that if a Muslim person carried it out on a church, it would 99.99% be reported as a terrorist attack or carried out by a terrorist.

 

So why is this not a terrorist carrying out an attack? Why a 'lone wolf'? 

 

As OP said, a terrorist attack is a terrorist attack regardless of race or creed or religion etc. 

As I've said, I honestly think the Daily Mail is trolling.

[bovril]

8 minutes ago, StanSP said:

my point being that if a Muslim person carried it out on a church, it would 99.99% be reported as a terrorist attack or carried out by a terrorist.

 

So why is this not a terrorist carrying out an attack? Why a 'lone wolf'? 

 

As OP said, a terrorist attack is a terrorist attack regardless of race or creed or religion etc. 

Of course.

My point was that calling him a 'lone wolf' doesn't mean you're not calling him a 'terrorist'. Semantics I guess. But in general you're right that the reporting is subtly different because of the race and religion.

 

And yes, they are doing it to get as many retweets / shares as possible, which is what all papers do.

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, bovril said:

Of course.

My point was that calling him a 'lone wolf' doesn't mean you're not calling him a 'terrorist'. Semantics I guess. But in general you're right that the reporting is subtly different because of the race and religion.

 

And yes, they are doing it to get as many retweets / shares as possible, which is what all papers do.

Good point actually, you can be a Christian/Muslim terrorist and a lone wolf.