The Politics Thread

[MPH]

Millions of crap jobs, mainly filled through record levels of immigration. Stuttering growth in manufacturing and construction, A housing crisis destroying the life prospects of the young, ratcheting up inequality and turning success/failure into an inheritance-based lottery. An unbalanced economy maintained by people flogging one another shares, insurance policies, burgers and hair stylings or providing personal services to investment bankers, Arab oil magnates and Russian crime tycoons. Schools crippled by targets. NHS and social care falling apart.

 

I could get into this Webbo-style succinct posting. 

 

 

 

See the connection there?

 

 

 

 

 

Cant hold that one on the tories, surely?

 

 

 

Gotta love the E.U!!!

[Alf Bentley]

See the connection there?

 

 

 

 

 

Cant hold that one on the tories, surely?

 

 

 

Gotta love the E.U!!!

 

 

Was it the EU that ordered Cameron to increase immigration from OUTSIDE the EU, too?

Was it the EU that ordered the UK not to build more houses to meet the increased demand?

Was it the EU that ordered the UK to sell off most of its council housing and not replace it, helping send house prices through the roof - forcing millions into private renting....often from people who'd bought up that council housing?

 

I think you'll find that those matters come under national government authority - and the national government has been Tory-led for 5+ years, so why has the situation been getting worse, not better?

 

Ever since we've been in the EU, the prices of football match tickets has been rising. See the connection there? No, because there's none whatsoever. Two things happening simultaneously doesn't mean that one caused the other. Other factors may be at work.

 

Has immigration from the EU also caused a food shortage? Was it responsible for the rise in electricity prices? Has it caused a shortage of trains?

 

Supply can adjust to meet increased market demand, if it's allowed or encouraged to do so. Instead, decades of Tory policy have put a large part of the housing stock into the hands of commercial or buy-to-let landlords, prevented the replacement of council housing and done next to nothing to encourage builders to build more homes......creating a housing crisis that they certainly CAN be blamed for.

[Webbo]

I always thought Labour were in favour of immigration. I never realised they were so racist.

[Buce]

Was it the EU that ordered Cameron to increase immigration from OUTSIDE the EU, too?

Was it the EU that ordered the UK not to build more houses to meet the increased demand?

Was it the EU that ordered the UK to sell off most of its council housing and not replace it, helping send house prices through the roof - forcing millions into private renting....often from people who'd bought up that council housing?

I think you'll find that those matters come under national government authority - and the national government has been Tory-led for 5+ years, so why has the situation been getting worse, not better?

Ever since we've been in the EU, the prices of football match tickets has been rising. See the connection there? No, because there's none whatsoever. Two things happening simultaneously doesn't mean that one caused the other. Other factors may be at work.

Has immigration from the EU also caused a food shortage? Was it responsible for the rise in electricity prices? Has it caused a shortage of trains?

Supply can adjust to meet increased market demand, if it's allowed or encouraged to do so. Instead, decades of Tory policy have put a large part of the housing stock into the hands of commercial or buy-to-let landlords, prevented the replacement of council housing and done next to nothing to encourage builders to build more homes......creating a housing crisis that they certainly CAN be blamed for.

[Alf Bentley]

I always thought Labour were in favour of immigration. I never realised they were so racist.

 

 

I don't speak for Labour or anyone apart from myself.

 

Is it racist to want ANY immigration controls, then? If so, which camp do you fall into: do you favour uncontrolled immigration or are you a racist? 

 

Like any sane person, I support having sensible controls on immigration to allow entry to people fleeing war and persecution, offering skills or labour that are lacking etc. That should be in tandem with overseas development policies that will reduce the need for economic migration - and public spending/investment and social integration policies that will allow immigrants to integrate into British society without adversely affecting the native population or generating social/racial tensions. All easier said than done, of course.

 

My point, though, as I'm sure you're aware, was to counter the idea that EU regulations are responsible for all the rise in immigration (they're not), that immigration is the sole or even the main cause of the housing shortage (it's not) and that the national government (Tory or Labour but Tory for the last 5.5 years) has no power to influence either the housing market or immigration levels from outside the EU.

 

Anyway, I'm wasting far too much time on here having pointless discussions with Tory/UKIP supporters who have fixed opinions and will never accept any failing by their "side" (I do exclude MooseBreath from that criticism as I know that he's a Tory Boy who accepts some under-achievement by the Tories in housing, even if we disagree about most other issues). I'm logging out of FoxesTalk for a few days now to avoid wasting any more of my time.

[Webbo]

I was only teasing Alf.

[MPH]

Was it the EU that ordered Cameron to increase immigration from OUTSIDE the EU, too?

 

 

 

Oh come off it, Alf. The immigration from outside of the E.U pales into insignificance when you compare to the numbers that come from within...

 

 

Was it the EU that ordered the UK not to build more houses to meet the increased demand?

 

Just click your fingers and build houses. Thats how it works is it?

 

The land just magically appears, the planning permission happens overnight

, and its all done for a cost of next to nothing all at a time when local government coffers are overflowing with money...

 

Was it the EU that ordered the UK to sell off most of its council housing and not replace it, helping send house prices through the roof - forcing millions into private renting....often from people who'd bought up that council housing?

 

Let's remember that it was Labour who actually initially proposed the right to buy scheme for housing back in the 1950. They then put up some phoney  objection to it in 1983 saying they would abolish the scheme and hey ho dropped their plans to abolish it in 1985 ( AFTER being elected) They then had the perfect opportunity to abolish the scheme in 1997 but then failed to do so. 

 

 

I think you'll find that those matters come under national government authority - and the national government has been Tory-led for 5+ years, so why has the situation been getting worse, not better?

 

It was infact the Tory government   and specifically David Cameron. who had increased the time  you need to be in the homes before you have the right to buy from 2 years to 5 years

 

 

It's such a weak argument to say that David Cameron should of abolished it..... Why didnt any Labour government abolish it too when they had the chance?

 

As to why it might be getting worse and not better, , that's already been covered in my answers.

 

Ever since we've been in the EU, the prices of football match tickets has been rising. See the connection there? No, because there's none whatsoever. Two things happening simultaneously doesn't mean that one caused the other. Other factors may be at work.

 

Has immigration from the EU also caused a food shortage? Was it responsible for the rise in electricity prices? Has it caused a shortage of trains?

 

Supply can adjust to meet increased market demand, if it's allowed or encouraged to do so. Instead, decades of Tory policy have put a large part of the housing stock into the hands of commercial or buy-to-let landlords, prevented the replacement of council housing and done next to nothing to encourage builders to build more homes......creating a housing crisis that they certainly CAN be blamed for.

[Guest MattP]

Today's Labour related amusement (sorry FIF). John McDonnell signed a letter calling for MI5 and the armed police force to be disbanded. McDonnell has denied ever knowing about the letter let alone signing.

 

Since then a picture of him holding a letter has been uncovered and a video of him speaking at it's launch, his signature is also on the letter.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12005431/John-McDonnell-signed-letter-calling-for-MI5-and-armed-police-to-be-disbanded.html

 

 

John McDonnell, Labour's shadow chancellor, called for MI5 and the UK's armed police force to be scrapped in a controversial campaign letter.

A picture has emerged showing Mr McDonnell holding the letter earlier this year, despite claims that he had never seen or signed it.

 

[Strokes]

Wow, in times like these do we really need daft, self righteous prats like this anywhere near a position of power?

[Guest MattP]

Wow, in times like these do we really need daft, self righteous prats like this anywhere near a position of power?

 

It's absolutely hilarious isn't it? Every day we get another gift from this lot.

 

Cameron should stop any attacks on Corbyn/McDonnell etc with immediate, just answer PMQ's normally and don't try to embarrass him, this lot has to stay as the Labour leadership for a long as possible.

[Thracian]

I've not got involved with the Corbyn bashing because I'm not really interested.

 

By the same token we could ask why the Labour supporters aren't discussing the falling unemployment, low inflation and continued growth, despite all predictions to the contrary.

 

 

Seems to me that many Labour supporters would rather see their party in power than have any of the things you've mentioned. In other words they'd put their misguided ideologies way ahead of the country's wellbeing if it meant they could call he tune - however off key.     

[Thracian]

Corbyn should study history. There are times when constant appeasement is not the correct response. Corbyn currently makes Chamberlain look like Attila the Hun! Thank God he should be gone soon. We need a decent opposition.

Is Corbyn trying to go down in history as the most inept, out of touch labour leader and that would be saying something.

 

 

After the elastic Milliband, gordon Brown and all the shameful things that preceded him, I'm truly surprised anyone with intelligence still votes Labour.

Yes, i could understand the emergence of a new Party raising it's view for worker enhancement and even other important subjects.

But today's union-loving/reliant excuse for a Labour Party has nothing left to offer not even in Scotland now - which probably condemns it more emphatically than I ever could.

To even imagine people like Milliband and Corbyn even having the chance of leadership is a mockery of politics and even more so of the kind of leadership the country needs.   

[Jon the Hat]

As someone in the media tweeted this morning Labour is like having a toddler, you cant turn your back for 5 minutes or they do something monumentally stupid.

 

As a pretty staunch Tory, I have to say I am not convinced at all by the scale and pace of the tax credit cuts, but I would advocate their complete abolition over a longer period.  I am concerned about the impact of cuts on the police (the army are getting increased funding I believe) but I expect George to pull some additional cash for anti terror policing in his review next week.

[Thracian]

As someone in the media tweeted this morning Labour is like having a toddler, you cant turn your back for 5 minutes or they do something monumentally stupid.

 

As a pretty staunch Tory, I have to say I am not convinced at all by the scale and pace of the tax credit cuts, but I would advocate their complete abolition over a longer period.  I am concerned about the impact of cuts on the police (the army are getting increased funding I believe) but I expect George to pull some additional cash for anti terror policing in his review next week.

 

And so he should. But it needs more than just funding. 

[Alf Bentley]

I'm supposed to be on a self-imposed ban from here, but couldn't let this one pass unnoticed amidst all the fake outrage at Red Ken's silly comments....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12004437/Conservative-chairman-knew-about-sexual-harassment-allegations-against-senior-aide-MP-claims.html

 

 

So, a key figure in the 2015 Tory election campaign is alleged to have bullied and threatened a young Tory activist to the extent that he threw himself under a train. He allegedly left a note blaming said senior official, together with a tape of the meeting.

There had allegedly been multiple complaints to Tory HQ about this bloke, dating back years, including allegations of serious sexual assaults on women, attempted blackmail of a Tory minister etc.

A Tory MP has gone on Newsnight claiming that he was bullied himself to the extent that he suffered depression - and effectively claiming that the Tory Chairman is lying when he says he only heard about the complaints recently.

 

Now, compare the TV/media coverage given to these massively serious allegations and the coverage given to Red Ken's stupid insult in response to a colleague questioning his ability to do his job.

 

Do remind me again, you Tory Boys, how the BBC is promoting a left-wing agenda, won't you?! 

[Webbo]

I'm supposed to be on a self-imposed ban from here, but couldn't let this one pass unnoticed amidst all the fake outrage at Red Ken's silly comments....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12004437/Conservative-chairman-knew-about-sexual-harassment-allegations-against-senior-aide-MP-claims.html

 

 

So, a key figure in the 2015 Tory election campaign is alleged to have bullied and threatened a young Tory activist to the extent that he threw himself under a train. He allegedly left a note blaming said senior official, together with a tape of the meeting.

There had allegedly been multiple complaints to Tory HQ about this bloke, dating back years, including allegations of serious sexual assaults on women, attempted blackmail of a Tory minister etc.

A Tory MP has gone on Newsnight claiming that he was bullied himself to the extent that he suffered depression - and effectively claiming that the Tory Chairman is lying when he says he only heard about the complaints recently.

 

Now, compare the TV/media coverage given to these massively serious allegations and the coverage given to Red Ken's stupid insult in response to a colleague questioning his ability to do his job.

 

Do remind me again, you Tory Boys, how the BBC is promoting a left-wing agenda, won't you?! 

This has been in the Mail for weeks, I've not really took much notice because I'm not really interested.

 

The same with the Red Ken stuff, it never bothered me, although it's just the sort of thing that Labour like to cry crocodile tears over so I've not much sympathy for him either. 

[Alf Bentley]

I was only teasing Alf.

 

 

Fair dos. I half thought that was the case, but wasn't sure. Anyway, I was mainly just getting annoyed with myself for spending too much time in here and too little getting other stuff done......

 

 

This has been in the Mail for weeks, I've not really took much notice because I'm not really interested.

 

The same with the Red Ken stuff, it never bothered me, although it's just the sort of thing that Labour like to cry crocodile tears over so I've not much sympathy for him either. 

 

 

....which is why I'll withdraw again now and get on with said stuff. Might find time to make the odd appearance in the 70s & 80s threads in the music forum, though. 

 

When serious policy issues arise, though, I look forward to returning to this politics thread (or "Tory Boy thread" as I now think of it....come back Zingari, all is forgiven!)

[MooseBreath]

Plenty of mileage in today's borrowing figures if anyone is still in serious opposition to the current government.

[Webbo]

Don't take it personally alf. I think there's a pretty even left right split on here. Perhaps Labour's problems are a bit more noticeable than the govt's atm.

[Dr The Singh]

Fair dos. I half thought that was the case, but wasn't sure. Anyway, I was mainly just getting annoyed with myself for spending too much time in here and too little getting other stuff done......

 

 

 

 

....which is why I'll withdraw again now and get on with said stuff. Might find time to make the odd appearance in the 70s & 80s threads in the music forum, though. 

 

When serious policy issues arise, though, I look forward to returning to this politics thread (or "Tory Boy thread" as I now think of it....come back Zingari, all is forgiven!)

DOes that stuff involve drugs, alcohol and sexy ladies?

Don't take it personally alf. I think there's a pretty even left right split on here. Perhaps Labour's problems are a bit more noticeable than the govt's atm.

It's all your fault, Alf is going....  

[Alf Bentley]

Plenty of mileage in today's borrowing figures if anyone is still in serious opposition to the current government.

 

 

Was on the lunchtime news: poor monthly figures, deficit up slightly, due to poor tax revenues and slower than expected net spending cuts (partly due to rising pensions costs).

You can't read much into any monthly figures, as there are always upward and downward blips. Apparently the tax revenues aren't so bad over 6 months, though they're behind their deficit reduction target as they've not cut as much as expected yet.

 

Personally, I'd be happier for them to miss their deficit target and cause less social damage.

 

 

Don't take it personally alf. I think there's a pretty even left right split on here. Perhaps Labour's problems are a bit more noticeable than the govt's atm.

 

 

Don't worry. Only thing I take personally is failing to get other things done because I've spent too much time on here - entirely my choice and my fault!

 

Previous forum polls have suggested an even left-right divide, maybe a little more left before, a little more right now, but not much in it.

 

I actually enjoy proper arguments with right-wing opponents more than exercises in back-slapping with left-wing fellow travellers. Only problem is a recent imbalance - lots of slating of Labour, who have zero power, for trivialities like personal disputes, and not much argument over policy, be that Labour policy or the policies of the Tories, who actually have the power to implement their policies.

 

Anyway, if I don't like it, I should contribute other stuff myself - or I should fvck off and stop whining, frankly!  

 

 

DOes that stuff involve drugs, alcohol and sexy ladies?

It's all your fault, Alf is going....  

 

 

Fear not, good Doctor, I'm not going, just maybe appearing a bit less frequently in politics threads.   

No drugs, alcohol or sexy ladies, just work, family issues and intensive training in the Webbo Succinct Posting technique.

No booze for nearly 6 months now...am missing it!

[Guest]

Don't take it personally alf. I think there's a pretty even left right split on here. Perhaps Labour's problems are a bit more noticeable than the govt's atm.

 

I think you're lumping all of the non right wing loonies in as lefties.

[Webbo]

I think you're lumping all of the non right wing loonies in as lefties.

I count the loonies as just loonies.

[Thracian]

Millions of crap jobs, mainly filled through record levels of immigration. Stuttering growth in manufacturing and construction, A housing crisis destroying the life prospects of the young, ratcheting up inequality and turning success/failure into an inheritance-based lottery. An unbalanced economy maintained by people flogging one another shares, insurance policies, burgers and hair stylings or providing personal services to investment bankers, Arab oil magnates and Russian crime tycoons. Schools crippled by targets. NHS and social care falling apart.

 

I could get into this Webbo-style succinct posting. 

 

 

As if Labour wouldn't be crowing about any kind of new jobs for all that they'd doubtless be in the largely non-productive public sector and being even more enthusiastically filled by imports from abroad.

 

Not that I don't sympathise with your comment because the levels of immigration would drop dramatically if I had my way and every effort would be made to see established British nationals put to work before any prospective new incomers, if at all possible.

 

I'm not sure about the construction industry. It's winter. Building always slows up in winter but there seems to be lots going on evenn now and family members I have in the construction industry's allied trades say business is booming and has rarely been so good with tilers and other housing jobbers actually having to turn down work - and sometimes a lot of it.

 

Again, over-immigration is affecting the housing market, as so many other things because it's creating a false scenario, with unnatural demand and inevitably insufficient supply.

 

Consequently the housing which is available is ridiculously overpriced with my youngest son's only chance of getting a house near London being what amounted to a £250,000 demolition job.    

 

It's system overload in every direction but no-one seems willing to close the doors. Even Labour bigwigs said they'd gone too far yet they opened the floodgates with no mandate and in complete defiance of what they knew public opinion would be. 

 

As for the nuts and bolts of economic trade, a greater emphasis on service industries as opposed to manufacturing industries was inevitable when so many companies shifted whole industries abroad. And shamelessly, many of those companies were based in Labour heartlands like Stoke-on-Trent with Labour councillors and Labour administrations.

 

Happily some manufacturing is now returning with Portmeirion in particular having reversed the trend in Stoke and the pottery industry. 

 

So actuallly, those service and development industries have been a lifeline while others decided the grass was greener elsewhere, and far more valuable than many of the largely unproductive public sector jobs created by Labour.

 

I'll keep the NHS for another day! Suffice to say that bad practice equals ridiculously bad value in any industry.

 

As for equality people aren't equal and never will be. It's that simple. Some people are winners and some aren't. Wherever and whatever you put them into. Vardy's a terrific example. From Stocksbridge Steels to England centre forward in five years or so. No silver spoon, no special leg up. Just hard work, talent, determination to keep improving and self-belief.    

[Guest]

I count the loonies as just loonies.

 

oh. Thanks for replying to us then.