England Portugal match thread.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Agreed Donut - yet the annoying thing is I think Vardy and Kane in a 442 would work... I even think Vardy and Rooney would work - yet Roy's been bullied out of that formation by the press, despite it being the formation he got a lot of success out of with Fulham.

If I remember correctly, he tried to use it in the Euro's he took over on short notice, but it was let down because Rooney was unable to follow his defensive instructions (he liked the strikers to stifle balls through to the midfield, allowing the central midfielders to sit deeper and screen the defence).

[Donut]

We didn't play a diamond tonight.

 

Anyone with half a brain cell can work that out (you'll need help with that). That's nothing to do with a "holier than thou attitude". It's just speaking the truth.

 

Its great seeing you pop up in every thread. I reckon in future ill just block you.

 

Funny how the pundits, people whove forgotten more about football than youll ever know, were talking about how we played a diamond and didnt play it effectively.

 

But yep, ill block you. Im tired of being followed around by you so good luck pestering someone else.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

We were playing a 4-3-3 and then Sterling and Lallana came on and we played a 4-2-3-1.

Come on lads, this isn't technical stuff. Anybody who saw the game could work that out.

I know it look like that at times, but that's because the instructions given were badly coached. It was supposed to be a diamond, you could tell that with the way Milner and Alli were positioning themselves.

[Donut]

Agreed Donut - yet the annoying thing is I think Vardy and Kane in a 442 would work... I even think Vardy and Rooney would work - yet Roy's been bullied out of that formation by the press, despite it being the formation he got a lot of success out of with Fulham.

If I remember correctly, he tried to use it in the Euro's he took over on short notice, but it was let down because Rooney was unable to follow his defensive instructions (he liked the strikers to stifle balls through to the midfield, allowing the central midfielders to sit deeper and screen the defence).

 

Once again, i agree with you. That lineup was also capable of scoring goals in the Euro's too.

 

He was basically bullied by the press into playing an overly offensive lineup at the world cup. That lineup didnt need much tweaking, it performed well in the game vs Italy, if we could have offered Baines more cover, and it had players playing in natural positions. But we had width, and we had pace, two qualities which opposition players will fear.

 

He has good quality wide options he could use, which he has somehow convinced himself not to use. I dont understant this at all.

 

One player i think this squad sorely misses is Danny Welbeck.

 

If we had him available, youd never see the oddball setups we see now

[Donut]

We were playing a 4-3-3 and then Sterling and Lallana came on and we played a 4-2-3-1.

 

Come on lads, this isn't technical stuff. Anybody who saw the game could work that out.

 

And incidentally, do you think the team had more pace, and more threat in the diamond/4-3-3/mess of a formation, or the 4-2-3-1?

[AKCJ]

I know it look like that at times, but that's because the instructions given were badly coached. It was supposed to be a diamond, you could tell that with the way Milner and Alli were positioning themselves.

 

Do you not think that it looked like a 4-3-3 because it was a 4-3-3?    

 

If it was a diamond then Vardy and Kane would have played centrally with Rose and Walker bombing forward to provide width with Rooney sitting in the hole between their midfield and defence.

 

It just was a 4-3-3.

[Donut]

Do you not think that it looked like a 4-3-3 because it was a 4-3-3?    

 

If it was a diamond then Vardy and Kane would have played centrally with Rose and Walker bombing forward to provide width with Rooney sitting in the hole between their midfield and defence.

 

It just was a 4-3-3.

 

Your opinions dont speak for everyone. And some day you will learn this, and you wont use head slapping emoji's.

 

Several people have seen the game differently to you. Theyre not all daft, nor are you a tactical brainbox.

[AKCJ]

And incidentally, do you think the team had more pace, and more threat in the diamond/4-3-3/mess of a formation, or the 4-2-3-1?

 

 

They played better when they weren't getting our two best strikers to play fullback in the 4-3-3 we played til they hooked Rooney and Kane (but we're talking a miniscue improvement) but we looked infinitely better in the 4-1-2-1-2 we played against Germany and even you can't deny that.

[Dan]

Formations often merge into others depending on the position of the opposition. It's not hard to see how a diamond can become 4-3-3 in a matter of seconds. The front two end up splitting (which is what happened tonight) meaning the one behind them is becoming the spearhead of the attack, and what do you know, it's effectively turned into 4-3-3.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Once again, i agree with you. That lineup was also capable of scoring goals in the Euro's too.

 

He was basically bullied by the press into playing an overly offensive lineup at the world cup. That lineup didnt need much tweaking, it performed well in the game vs Italy, if we could have offered Baines more cover, and it had players playing in natural positions. But we had width, and we had pace, two qualities which opposition players will fear.

 

He has good quality wide options he could use, which he has somehow convinced himself not to use. I dont understant this at all.

But the crime for Hodgson is that he didn't learn from that Italy game that strikers do not make good defensive wingers - or the fact he didn't do much about it during the game. He had Rooney and Welbeck doing it then and it didn't work (and he just sat on his bloody hands for 60 minutes watching this obvious problem happen time and time again until Italy decided to sit back because they were in front).

That World Cup squad lacked width - and low and behold, when we went behind in games / needed a goal, we struggled to create anything.

It was also shocking that having witnessed Pirlo do us one in the Euro's (due to Rooney abandoning his role of stopping his supply), the much mentioned plan to tackle his threat in that group game never appeared.

Hodgson is out of his depth - he never played at any level, Gravesend & Northfleet was about it and I have my suspicions that the Swiss side he did well with was a good era of players when 442 was pretty much all anyone played.

[Donut]

Formations often merge into others depending on the position of the opposition. It's not hard to see how a diamond can become 4-3-3 in a matter of seconds. The front two end up splitting (which is what happened tonight) meaning the one behind them is becoming the spearhead of the attack, and what do you know, it's effectively turned into 4-3-3.

 

Exactly.

 

Rooney was playing a role where at times he would come deep for the ball, at times he would drive into the box. He had license to find pockets of space to operate in, and to threaten goal when he could.

 

The starting philosophy was not 4-3-3 though. at times, it may for a short period have been 4-3-3, but the team was picked as a diamond.

 

Rooney was not in the team as an out and out through the middle striker.

 

And as indicated earlier, Milner and Alli were taking up narrow, "diamond like" positions in central midfield.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Do you not think that it looked like a 4-3-3 because it was a 4-3-3?    

 

If it was a diamond then Vardy and Kane would have played centrally with Rose and Walker bombing forward to provide width with Rooney sitting in the hole between their midfield and defence.

 

It just was a 4-3-3.

If it was a true 433 I believe Dier would have played higher, inbetween Milner and Alli and the midfield span would have been a little wider. I think what was said tactically for defensive positions was that Rooney was to pick up the deep lying midfielder and that Vardy and Kane would split to try and force the ball inside, plus track the full backs when needed.

The couple of reports I've read describe the formation as a failed diamond.

[AKCJ]

Exactly.

 

Rooney was playing a role where at times he would come deep for the ball, at times he would drive into the box. He had license to find pockets of space to operate in, and to threaten goal when he could.

 

The starting philosophy was not 4-3-3 though. at times, it may for a short period have been 4-3-3, but the team was picked as a diamond.

 

Rooney was not in the team as an out and out through the middle striker.

 

And as indicated earlier, Milner and Alli were taking up narrow, "diamond like" positions in central midfield.

 

You don't play narrow as a midfielder when you're playing a diamond, you do when you're playing a 4-3-3.

 

Have you ever played the game? 

[AKCJ]

If it was a true 433 I believe Dier would have played higher, inbetween Milner and Alli and the midfield span would have been a little wider. I think what was said tactically for defensive positions was that Rooney was to pick up the deep lying midfielder and that Vardy and Kane would split to try and force the ball inside, plus track the full backs when needed.

The couple of reports I've read describe the formation as a failed diamond.

 

Dier played the furthest back in a midfield 3.

[Donut]

You don't play narrow as a midfielder when you're playing a diamond, you do when you're playing a 4-3-3.

 

Have you ever played the game? 

 

Yep, ive played the game. Probably a lot more than you have.

 

Not relevant to the discussion.

 

More post game articles talk about a diamond than a 4-3-3.

 

See no relevance in debating this further with you, its ruining the thread.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Trying to find some wide view images of the game. One poor one so far...

But if you notice, Rooney has tracked the deep midfielder through the middle as Portguals centre half a split - also look at Alli and Milner behind - that's a classic two in a diamond position. You wouldn't play a deep holder in a 4-3-3 because you'd want that 3 man midfield to be able to shuffle sideways to protect the flanks.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Just thought of another reason why it wasn't a 4-3-3 formation - if it was, you'd surely play Kane centrally as the taller of the trio?

[ScouseFox]

if it was a diamond it was the worst attempt at a diamond ive ever seen. 

 

if it was 433 it was still the worst attempt at 433 ive ever seen. 

 

 

the fact nobody knows (the players probably dont even know) is the big point here. 

[davieG]

Hodgson 

 

He was not prepared to add his "voice to the debate" on selecting his strikers, though he did attempt to explain the thought process.

"We played with split strikers," Hodgson said. "When you play with that system, you need your strikers to split.

"If you play with them going down the middle and Rooney in behind them, you would never be able to defend the wide areas.

"There were moments in the game where they were too wide, but basically speaking their job is to split and come together."

 

Hodgson employed that pair alongside Wayne Rooney, nominally at the tip of a diamond, for the first time together in the narrow victory over Portugal’s 10 men only for the two leading English scorers over the Premier League season to find themselves too often pinned to the periphery. Both Kane and Vardy, who was substituted having had only nine touches of which one was from the kick-off, split to the wings with Rooney forever muscling his way upfield between them and through the middle.

 

So Vardy had 9 touches.

[The Doctor]

Oh yeah, how stupid of me.

 

That one game alone shows us that we are at least as good, if not better than the world champions.

 

Almost as if we didnt get totally fvcked over 2-0 in the first half too.

 

Funny how a diamond vs Turkey and Portugal looks absolutely abject isnt it.

 

AKCJ for England manager. Hes always right.

While playing the usual 4-2-3-1. Once Vardy came on and went up front with Kane England were the best they've been in years. Wasn't a great 1-90 performance, but the bit where you actually played with 2 strikers was excellent.

And it wasn't a diamond last night, may have been drawn out as one but in practice it turned into some sort of garbled mess that didn't resemble anything. Vardy and Kane as defensive wingers ffs - stupidest thing I've seen since holloways team full of right backs

[Jimothy]

Unless I've missed a post, surely you're all missing the obvious from last night.

We played two up front against Germany in the second half, and battered them. We switched to it v Turkey and we improved. Tonight we tried a variation on it, but with one difference, we shoehorned Rooney in. Thinking about Englands best recent performance in general they've been without Rooney. Times up for him I'm afraid, well it should be.

[Dodgy Bob]

Germany lost 3-1 at home to Slovakia the other night, so iI'm not sure we can even take much pride from beating them. We know Germany will turn up when it matters though, like they almost always do, and like we never do.

On the formation, for me the fact that Rooney was so deep suggests a diamond. If it was 433 you'd have your central striker at least as advanced and usually more advanced than your two wide forwards.

But whatever it was meant to be, it ended up as a shambles. I don't think Roy Hodgson knows. The man has lost his mind. He's in his 80's now isn't he? Well into his 80's now I think, and he's not all there anymore. We should do him and us a favour and let him go now.

[MC Prussian]

Browsing through this thread just shows how divisive football can be.

 

In all seriousness, even though you can argue with Hodgson's team selection before the game and the confusing system he used against Portugal, you still got a win out of it which I think is helpful for team morale and your main protagonists got a full 90 minutes, with nobody injured. That's the main thing.

 

Looking ahead to EURO 2016, you all know that it can go either way. Whether you like Hodgson's style or not, support the team, support the players. If Hodgson manages to pull off a miracle this summer, praise him for that. If he fails miserably, then slag him off.

 

I wish you all a great European Championship in France. Because my guess is England will go further than Switzerland.

[Guest Bob Hazels shorts]

Would honestly prefer Vardy not starting. Bring him on and allow him to play his game.

 

Pretty obvious that Woy hasn't got a clue what to do with him + will accommodate Rooney even if in goal.

 

Leicester had some baffling formations and selections last season, and its only when the Cambiasso inspired penny dropped that we turned.

 

Woy makes Claudio look like a god. 

[J.Lisemore]

Unless I've missed a post, surely you're all missing the obvious from last night.

We played two up front against Germany in the second half, and battered them. We switched to it v Turkey and we improved. Tonight we tried a variation on it, but with one difference, we shoehorned Rooney in. Thinking about Englands best recent performance in general they've been without Rooney. Times up for him I'm afraid, well it should be.

 

Can't wait to see our midfield maestro start in the Euro's...I'm guessing he'll be shoehorned in as a defender or goalkeeper in the next one.