Is Facism and Pro-Brexit/Euro-scepticism one and the same thing

[Kendal Fox]

Hating all this now. The divide in the country at the moment is shocking. I don't know what the answer is. We need answers and quick

But the thing is, it was always there.. If we didn't have this referendum, does that mean it would be ok so long as the unhappiness and suffering of many was silenced?

And for the record, I myself am from a multi-ethnic background, my wife is afro-caribbean and our 2 year old is multi-racial. Regardless of this bloody referendum, we face bigotry of one kind or another on a daily basis - (much of which is dismissed by many people who happened to vote remain by the way), so I kind of take offence to the white liberals saying that white european immigrants feel unwelcome now. I'm digressing but how many times have we heard about black footballers being racially abused when they play in Europe - EU based clubs? Yet some of the people from these countries guilty of that kind of abuse of people of colour are the new victims of "racism"? Really?!! We have no choice either way yet still can look at the perspective of those who voted leave because they are deprived and have been systematically screwed over.

And it's the audacity of those that call themselves liberal when they are absolutely not. Like I said, they conveniently shift the goal posts when they don't get their own way...

[Kendal Fox]

Just wanted to add that the "liberals" I refer to are NOT on FoxesTalk, so I'm in no way bashing anyone on here. I'm talking about Facebook, Twitter, etc.. Like I said earlier in the referendum thread, it's actually refreshing to converse with people on here because, regardless of political direction, there is a sense of decent spirit and a want to try to understand and even enrich at times. That is almost non existent on so-called social media...

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Having a  "Federal Europe" would be much closer to "Facism".

[The Guvnor]

That's a very confident, generalising statement. I think you need to get out your head that everyone votes the same way as you for the same reasons as you. People voted remain or leave for various different reason, some with merit on both sides, some very spurious reasons on both sides. Some voted with their gut. Some didn't have a clue what they were voting for on both sides, I've seen genuine post on Facebook thinking we actually leaving in continent of Europe so they voted remain to another who voted leave because joining the EU (you know that thing we're currently in) would be too big an adjustment and leave meant keeping things the same. Can you please stop assuming you speak for everyone who put an X in the bottom box.

 

Ha Ha we have left an 'incontinent Europe' and no amount of wet wipes would have fixed it.

[Jimothy]

Ha Ha we have left an 'incontinent Europe' and no amount of wet wipes would have fixed it.

God damn autocorrect! Why does it add words in after you've moved on!

[The Guvnor]

God damn autocorrect! Why does it add words in after you've moved on!

 

 

Ha ha never mind made me smile, there you go pleasant banter across the borders so to speak.

[Alf Bentley]

I know but he isn't doing anything about leaving the EU. Its all just being left in limbo. Another thing to add is those pesky negotiations cameron did with EU in February no longer exist. We can expect hoards of immigrants coming into the country in the next year or so. I reckon well over 500,000. Worried about us leaving eu and trying to get here and settled before it happens.

 

 

He's NOT doing nothing. He'll be meeting the leaders of all the other EU countries at the Council on Tuesday, won't he? Then, they'll be discussing their position as the remaining EU without him on Wednesday. In addition, there'll doubtless be all sorts of informal negotiations and discussions going on, as the EU works out what terms its members are prepared to offer the UK - and as the UK works out what terms it can and can't get.

 

All he's done is postponed the start of the 2-year divorce negotiations until a new PM is in place - if the rest of the EU is prepared to accept this. Mixed messages about this (Merkel & Tusk seem more amenable, Juncker & the European Parliament bod less so).

 

That's the right approach in the circumstances. Webbo is right that Cameron couldn't have led the Brexit negotiations: he couldn't stay as PM having lost the referendum and the negotiations will have to be led by those who will be in power afterwards. Delaying the start of the 2-year negotiations gives his successors more time both to work out their options before negotiations start, and to complete those negotiations. That's good as (1) it's not at all clear that people on the Brexit side know what conditions they want (e.g. re. single market & free movement); (2) the closer it gets to the end of the 2-year negotiations period, the weaker the UK's position will be. That's because, under the rules, we risk finding ourselves out of the EU with NO agreed deal if the 2 years of negotiations end with no agreement, unless the other 27 countries unanimously agree to extend the 2-year period....which is by no means certain.

[GaelicFox]

He's NOT doing nothing. He'll be meeting the leaders of all the other EU countries at the Council on Tuesday, won't he? Then, they'll be discussing their position as the remaining EU without him on Wednesday. In addition, there'll doubtless be all sorts of informal negotiations and discussions going on, as the EU works out what terms its members are prepared to offer the UK - and as the UK works out what terms it can and can't get.

All he's done is postponed the start of the 2-year divorce negotiations until a new PM is in place - if the rest of the EU is prepared to accept this. Mixed messages about this (Merkel & Tusk seem more amenable, Juncker & the European Parliament bod less so).

That's the right approach in the circumstances. Webbo is right that Cameron couldn't have led the Brexit negotiations: he couldn't stay as PM having lost the referendum and the negotiations will have to be led by those who will be in power afterwards. Delaying the start of the 2-year negotiations gives his successors more time both to work out their options before negotiations start, and to complete those negotiations. That's good as (1) it's not at all clear that people on the Brexit side know what conditions they want (e.g. re. single market & free movement); (2) the closer it gets to the end of the 2-year negotiations period, the weaker the UK's position will be. That's because, under the rules, we risk finding ourselves out of the EU with NO agreed deal if the 2 years of negotiations end with no agreement, unless the other 27 countries unanimously agree to extend the 2-year period....which is by no means certain.

He had told Gove and Boris he is playing NO part in negotiations !

They asked him to lead on that shite

He laughed

He is doing nothing

And it's a wise wise move

[Larry_LCFC]

. That is all.

[Guest MattP]

No! I think it's already quite clear remaining in the European Union makes a fascist government more likely looking across the continent.

[Guest MattP]

I'd love to see Dennis Skinner and Tariq Ali's reaction to being compared to fascists though.

[Guest]

I know but he isn't doing anything about leaving the EU. Its all just being left in limbo. Another thing to add is those pesky negotiations cameron did with EU in February no longer exist. We can expect hoards of immigrants coming into the country in the next year or so. I reckon well over 500,000. Worried about us leaving eu and trying to get here and settled before it happens.

Put the daily mail down and get a ****ing grip eh?

[Harry - LCFC]

I think this is a discussion worth a seperate thread

Mainly because the referendum thread is throwing up a huge amount to quite disturbing and wild points of views and accusations about Leave voters. Today at Mass I heard it suggested that We have now become a county Where "raving fascists are passed off as "euro sceptics" "

That's a discussion tread that seems to be woven into a lot of comments passed by remain voters about leave voters.

There are very few deployed definitions of Facism in existence so I go back to one of the founding fathers of Facism , Benito Mussolini.

mussolini outlined the three principles of a fascist philosophy as :

1."Everything in the state". ( refusing Brussels power could be seen as enthusing "Everythjng in the state"

2."Nothing form outside the state" (anti immigration and a greater sense of superiority, UKIP embody this belief)

3."Nothing against the state". Any type of questioning of the government or the people outside the state will not be tolerated. So EU rules and laws are in effect against the state

It's uncomfortable to comprehend and analyse for many but the debate must be had ! And the question is :

Is Facism and Pro-Brexit/Euro-scepticism one and the same thing ?

 

Wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago you had the Vote Leave logo as your profile picture?

[Webbo]

Wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago you had the Vote Leave logo as your profile picture?

GF is making a lot of contradictory posts. I'm beginning to think he's just trolling.

[bovril]

Gaelic's all over the shop.

[Alf Bentley]

There are all sorts of valid reasons to be a Eurosceptic or to vote Brexit (I seriously considered doing so myself).

 

Likewise, it's perfectly valid to raise the issue of immigration - but it has to be done very carefully to avoid stirring up all sorts of nastiness.

Some leaders of the Brexit campaign have been nowhere near careful enough.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-3660788/Divisive-xenophobic-campaign-spilling-streets--Baroness-Warsi.html

"Baroness Warsi has warned that immigrants and their descendants are being stopped in the street and ordered to leave Britain in the wake of the "divisive and xenophobic" Brexit campaign.

The former chairwoman of the Conservative Party switched from backing Leave to Remain over concerns "lies and hate" were being spread by pro-Brexit politicians."

"I've spent most of the weekend talking to organisations, individuals and activists who work in the area of race hate crime, who monitor hate crime, and they have shown some really disturbing early results from people being stopped in the street and saying look, we voted Leave, it's time for you to leave. And they are saying this to individuals and families who have been here for three, four, five generations. The atmosphere on the street is not good".

[Webbo]

There are all sorts of valid reasons to be a Eurosceptic or to vote Brexit (I seriously considered doing so myself).

 

Likewise, it's perfectly valid to raise the issue of immigration - but it has to be done very carefully to avoid stirring up all sorts of nastiness.

Some leaders of the Brexit campaign have been nowhere near careful enough.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-3660788/Divisive-xenophobic-campaign-spilling-streets--Baroness-Warsi.html

"Baroness Warsi has warned that immigrants and their descendants are being stopped in the street and ordered to leave Britain in the wake of the "divisive and xenophobic" Brexit campaign.

The former chairwoman of the Conservative Party switched from backing Leave to Remain over concerns "lies and hate" were being spread by pro-Brexit politicians."

"I've spent most of the weekend talking to organisations, individuals and activists who work in the area of race hate crime, who monitor hate crime, and they have shown some really disturbing early results from people being stopped in the street and saying look, we voted Leave, it's time for you to leave. And they are saying this to individuals and families who have been here for three, four, five generations. The atmosphere on the street is not good".

Obviously nobody would condone that but I think it's unlikely that people only act/think like that because of the referendum

[bovril]

There are all sorts of valid reasons to be a Eurosceptic or to vote Brexit (I seriously considered doing so myself).

 

Likewise, it's perfectly valid to raise the issue of immigration - but it has to be done very carefully to avoid stirring up all sorts of nastiness.

Some leaders of the Brexit campaign have been nowhere near careful enough.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-3660788/Divisive-xenophobic-campaign-spilling-streets--Baroness-Warsi.html

"Baroness Warsi has warned that immigrants and their descendants are being stopped in the street and ordered to leave Britain in the wake of the "divisive and xenophobic" Brexit campaign.

The former chairwoman of the Conservative Party switched from backing Leave to Remain over concerns "lies and hate" were being spread by pro-Brexit politicians."

"I've spent most of the weekend talking to organisations, individuals and activists who work in the area of race hate crime, who monitor hate crime, and they have shown some really disturbing early results from people being stopped in the street and saying look, we voted Leave, it's time for you to leave. And they are saying this to individuals and families who have been here for three, four, five generations. The atmosphere on the street is not good".

 

It's unpleasant for sure. I'm sure I'll get labelled as an out of touch elitist snob bla bla bla but I have family and close friends from Europe, West and East, who are sick of being seen as a soft target. I've heard stuff said about European migrants that would never be said about non-EU migrants. Well I say never, but if a lot of the Europeans go home the hate has to go somewhere. And as stated above there's a lot of disgusting stuff directed to Muslims, too.

 

And before anybody has a go I'm not labelling all outers as xenophobes, I have a lot of friends I reckon voted out, but I feel quite uneasy about stuff at the moment and I believe the whole debate has poisoned the body politic in a lot of ways. Not only in terms of anger towards immigrants, but increasing divisions in England, Scotland, Ireland.

[Countryfox]

No, but the consequences of Brexit and a few more years of the Tory Right could well lead to the growth of fascism.

 

 

 

New book out next week ...   Mein Kampf by B. Johnson.      

[Alf Bentley]

Obviously nobody would condone that but I think it's unlikely that people only act/think like that because of the referendum

 

 

Indeed, there are people who act/think like that at all times. not just during a referendum.

 

But public figures hammering on about immigrants in a hostile manner makes more and more people think that's acceptable - and leads people on the fringes to act in a more extreme way, venting their anger and frustration about immigration and about other worries in life. People who might previously have done nothing more than mutter about immigrants to fellow thinkers in the saloon bar can be emboldened to make hostile comments to brown faces in the street.

 

That is particularly true when something happens like Farage's poster depicting a menacing queue of brown-faced migrants apparently snaking towards the UK - not Europeans, note, brown-faced migrants from Middle East / Asia.

 

A week ago, for the first time in decades, an MP was murdered. A woman doing nobody any harm was shot and stabbed by somebody who proclaimed his name to be "Death to traitors, Freedom to Britain". I'm not suggesting for a second that he represented the Brexit campaign in any way, but desperate or crazy people on the fringes can be inspired by the mood of the nation. Maybe the timing of that murder was pure coincidence. Maybe this reported upsurge in overt racism is pure coincidence and nothing to do with a referendum in which the Leave side targeted immigration as their top issue and banged on about it for about the last fortnight. But it seems more likely that the nasty edge of the campaign fanned the flames. 

[lifted*fox]

Obviously nobody would condone that but I think it's unlikely that people only act/think like that because of the referendum

 

There has clearly already been an increase in these xenophobic / racist / hate-crime events - this result has given a certain overly 'patriotic' group of people the impression that it is now OK to talk to / treat foreign people in this way without retribution.

 

That's the kind of simpletons we're dealing with here - they actually think that because we're leaving the EU we're going to send generations of neighbours, friends, co-workers 'HOME' - what a ****ing embarrassment.

 

Whilst I realise this is probably a small minority of leave voters - this is still a group of society that well-meaning leave voters have given a louder, more dangerous voice to - whether you like it or not. 

[Larry_LCFC]

There have been some pretty wild threads on here over the years, but frankly this one is just ****ing stupid.

[Webbo]

There has clearly already been an increase in these xenophobic / racist / hate-crime events - this result has given a certain overly 'patriotic' group of people the impression that it is now OK to talk to / treat foreign people in this way without retribution.

 

That's the kind of simpletons we're dealing with here - they actually think that because we're leaving the EU we're going to send generations of neighbours, friends, co-workers 'HOME' - what a ****ing embarrassment.

 

Whilst I realise this is probably a small minority of leave voters - this is still a group of society that well-meaning leave voters have given a louder, more dangerous voice to - whether you like it or not. 

Has there or is it it's just being more widely reported? Even if it has what are we supposed to do, not vote for what we believe because some moron might react badly?

[lifted*fox]

Has there or is it it's just being more widely reported? Even if it has what are we supposed to do, not vote for what we believe because some moron might react badly?

 

Well I don't see anyone from the Leave campaign rushing out to silence them? Perhaps now would be a prominent time for one of the political leaders in support of Leave to come out and inform these people that their vote for leave doesn't entitle them to start asking people in the street to leave the country - because it would appear that they currently feel entitled to do that. 

[Webbo]

Well I don't see anyone from the Leave campaign rushing out to silence them? Perhaps now would be a prominent time for one of the political leaders in support of Leave to come out and inform these people that their vote for leave doesn't entitle them to start asking people in the street to leave the country - because it would appear that they currently feel entitled to do that. 

I'm sure they'd hang on Michael Gove's every word if they knew who he was.