Howard Gayle refuses MBE

[Nick]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-37572943

 

I do see this point of view - the MBE and OBE are arguably dated titles as they refer to empire - which does not sit comfortably with many.

 

Honours lists have changed over the past few years - maybe the titles should too?

 

I know several people who have changed their names as their surnames originate from the slave masters that historically 'owned' their family.....

 

Maybe we'll have to wait a while for William to take up the throne before this happens....

[MPH]

Totally See his point. But we do still have a commonwealth.. Is he saying he would accept a name change to MBC Member of the order of the British commonwealth? Or of Great Britain? or an MGB? But then what happens to all those who proudly accepted an MBE? would they have theirs changed too? and then some might not to give theirs back in complaint of the name changed..

 

Me being Pedantic is more a hint of the can of worms they will probably want to avoid by changing the name. I would guess that for the foreseeable future the name wont change...

[GaelicFox]

46 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-37572943

 

I do see this point of view - the MBE and OBE are arguably dated titles as they refer to empire - which does not sit comfortably with many.

 

Honours lists have changed over the past few years - maybe the titles should too?

 

I know several people who have changed their names as their surnames originate from the slave masters that historically 'owned' their family.....

 

Maybe we'll have to wait a while for William to take up the throne before this happens....

On another thread I mentioned a distant Great grand father of mine was a plantation manager/owner in the West Indies when I visited there for the first time 15 years ago I was shocked to meet so many people with Irish surnames , Kelly/Murphy/Sinnott/McDade/sweeny  etc....

I didn't realise it was a way of claiming ownership of a slave to give them the masters name , I felt so uncomfortable discussing these Irish names with people but many were very proud of their Irish names because they felt the Irish brethren masters on the whole tried to be fair , I also met many who had changed Irish names to a more west African affiliated names. 

 

Fast forward over 100 years and the Irish and West Indian immigrants Shared so much in common during the 1950's and 60's our communities were made to feel unwelcome "no dogs, blacks or Irish" was a regular sign in boarding houses , to be made so unwelcome  here in the country we had helped Make "Great" was difficult for both communities accept. 

 

I feel the irish and the west Indian people have a very shared history and understanding, Montserrat for example had a very big history with ireland so much so it's is nicknamed "the other Emerald Isle" Irish men and women and African slaves forged a life together in the west Indies  

 

here is a short video explaining the Irish link to Montserrat , was made in 1970's the programme but it's a fascinating insight to how the Empire forced Irish victims of cromwells sacking of ireland and the slave trade from africa were forced together ! 

 

 

I cant understand how any West Indian or Irish person can accept an honour from the crown when the crown did so much to enslave our histories , if it was a civil honour from the British people that would be great i have no issues with the civil society of this county but the crown and its aristocracy establishment has 1000 years of tyranny to still answer and apologise for. 

 

Mr Gayle should be applauded 

[yorkie1999]

Bet he'd accept a kbe.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Probably the best thing to do would be to reinstate the British Empire.

[GaelicFox]

29 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Probably the best thing to do would be to reinstate the British Empire.

No air craft carrier , not enough troops to protect the border , trillions in debt , a navy the world laughs at , fighter jets numbers that Russians think are fictional they are so low , and a currency no one wants and is no longer backed by gold

 

ya good luck with that empire building buddy  

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 hour ago, GaelicFox said:

No air craft carrier , not enough troops to protect the border , trillions in debt , a navy the world laughs at , fighter jets numbers that Russians think are fictional they are so low , and a currency no one wants and is no longer backed by gold

 

ya good luck with that empire building buddy  

Erm... you don't know me too well do ya.

 

[GaelicFox]

31 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Erm... you don't know me too well do ya.

 

Sorry man , missed it 

[Strokes]

Don't care

[SystonFox]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Don't care

Stop. I said it's happening again. We're all wasting away.

 

apologies. Saw the word empire and got carried away

 

 

I GOT CARRIED AWAYAYAYAYAAYAYAYYYYYYYY

[fuchsntf]

5 hours ago, GaelicFox said:

On another thread I mentionempven todayine was a plantation manager/owner in the West Indies when I visited there for the first time 15 years ago I was shocked to meet so many people with Irish surnames , Kelly/Murphy/Sinnott/McDade/sweeny  etc....

I didn't realise it was a way of claiming ownership of a slave to give them the masters name , I felt so uncomfortable discussing these Irish names with people but many were very proud of their Irish names because they felt the Irish brethren masters on the whole tried to be fair , I also met many who had changed Irish names to a more west African affiliated names. 

 

Fast forward over 100 years and the Irish and West Indian immigrants Shared so much in common during the 1950's and 60's our communities were made to feel unwelcome "no dogs, blacks or Irish" was a regular sign in boarding houses , to be made so unwelcome  here in the country we had helped Make "Great" was difficult for both communities accept. 

 

I feel the irish and the west Indian people have a very shared history and understanding, Montserrat for example had a very big history with ireland so much so it's is nicknamed "the other Emerald Isle" Irish men and women and African slaves forged a life together in the west Indies  

 

here is a short video explaining the Irish link to Montserrat , was made in 1970's the programme but it's a fascinating insight to how the Empire forced Irish victims of cromwells sacking of ireland and the slave trade from africa were forced together ! 

 

 

I cant understand how any West Indian or Irish person can accept an honour from the crown when the crown did so much to enslave our histories , if it was a civil honour from the British people that would be great i have no issues with the civil society of this county but the crown and its aristocracy establishment has 1000 years of tyranny to still answer and apologise for. 

 

Mr Gayle should be applauded 

I am getting fed up of this easy get out  hypocrisy. I wont deny the history of Great Britain,

the glory, the tyranny within, the Inbalance Within the "empires society" the good and bad building of a new civilisation.

History wise of the making of our empire, we either got ravaged plundered, and accepted our futures to be under

a french, spanish, portugese, Dutch, old Russian flag, our monarchs, then Following  governments decided Britain

will compete and fight for The soul of Britain, to give this land at those times  a future.

Not forgetting the normal folk of the UK, were also not getting any better deal than the people

within the developing commonwealth.(Commonwealth a contradiction Within itself)

We the plebs were also treated with disdain and carried also the repelent Untouchable unworthy Label.

Back to the hypocrisy...

That of the People that fought or fell    the/to British Empire , the peoples of Africa , Asia who came under 

the BE yoke..Well before Britain came a power and all through Our history , then after their independence,

Right upto now...Its those African, Indian, all Asian nations, that mistreated, under sultans, kings, mirs

and Emproers that then/through/even now lead the way in Selling their own to slavery, and causing atrocities

Way off the richter scale. The past and present migrants can cry about their peoples sufferrings, but even

again...after independence their "old countries" are treating their  people on the street like shit and undesirables

Only worthy to serve the corruption that rules.

Oh yes The Europeans picked up the slavery trade and made a horrific massive business out of it.Disgusting and

as Repelent action and time in human history...but please I ask ,I beg all of yOu who have a chip on your shoulder,

Stop fooling yourself and get off the blame platform. Because it was your own peoples c who sold their own,

as mentioned well before the BE bacame a power, and worse ...during our Reigning years.

 

I am neither proud nor ashamed...My governments, my ancestors government, or rulers, never cared about

Us, The guys n gals on the streets, working class nor middle classes ,

but thanks to many generations of big society internal revolutions, demos, strikes and movements, we have reached

in western europe a reasonable fair mix standard society.We still have massive social problems and govt and business

Corruption, and if discovered the guilty often pay for their Criminal Deeds, and free speach even For our new citizens is a

Protected right.

 

To the "Empire" haters

Celebrate in your minds the now and fight  with the same fervour for the present, the now and the future,

for all peoples rights.   History of Europe is not steeped with honours on human rights, 100+yrs we , or better said our

Rulers and governments were too busy fighting each other firstly for survival, and not to surrender to Personal ideas

on tyranny, and  an irratic idea on loyalties to ones country.

Because of That european history that time of civilization and country  Building, nobody of African or Asia origin

has any rightvto ask for Political retribution, apologies, or financial Address. Look back at What your Own Peoples

Crimes against humans Within their own Societies were, or the  tribal or township civilisations discriminations

that  even today runs Rife.

The strange, the funny thing that is never Chased, hounded or hunted down or criticised from these critics of

British history is the racism and tribal hate in Africa, Racism in atonymous groups, in v Africa, Asia, middle east

And across Afghanistan , and through the old lands of Persia.

Another Thing shocked me was when visiting various West-Indian islands was

the way house servants were poorly appreciated and handled .

The Cast system or types of , is nothing but an embroided internal racist issue. 

 

THE Scots sold out their own, and were never united, their clans blew any ideas of self rule out.

The Irish were right...The UK government was wrong and shit to the Irish, but no worse v than they were to

Their own uk citizens.

 

 

 

[GaelicFox]

7 hours ago, fuchsntf said:

I am getting fed up of this easy get out  hypocrisy. I wont deny the history of Great Britain,

the glory, the tyranny within, the Inbalance Within the "empires society" the good and bad building of a new civilisation.

History wise of the making of our empire, we either got ravaged plundered, and accepted our futures to be under

a french, spanish, portugese, Dutch, old Russian flag, our monarchs, then Following  governments decided Britain

will compete and fight for The soul of Britain, to give this land at those times  a future.

Not forgetting the normal folk of the UK, were also not getting any better deal than the people

within the developing commonwealth.(Commonwealth a contradiction Within itself)

We the plebs were also treated with disdain and carried also the repelent Untouchable unworthy Label.

Back to the hypocrisy...

That of the People that fought or fell    the/to British Empire , the peoples of Africa , Asia who came under 

the BE yoke..Well before Britain came a power and all through Our history , then after their independence,

Right upto now...Its those African, Indian, all Asian nations, that mistreated, under sultans, kings, mirs

and Emproers that then/through/even now lead the way in Selling their own to slavery, and causing atrocities

Way off the richter scale. The past and present migrants can cry about their peoples sufferrings, but even

again...after independence their "old countries" are treating their  people on the street like shit and undesirables

Only worthy to serve the corruption that rules.

Oh yes The Europeans picked up the slavery trade and made a horrific massive business out of it.Disgusting and

as Repelent action and time in human history...but please I ask ,I beg all of yOu who have a chip on your shoulder,

Stop fooling yourself and get off the blame platform. Because it was your own peoples c who sold their own,

as mentioned well before the BE bacame a power, and worse ...during our Reigning years.

 

I am neither proud nor ashamed...My governments, my ancestors government, or rulers, never cared about

Us, The guys n gals on the streets, working class nor middle classes ,

but thanks to many generations of big society internal revolutions, demos, strikes and movements, we have reached

in western europe a reasonable fair mix standard society.We still have massive social problems and govt and business

Corruption, and if discovered the guilty often pay for their Criminal Deeds, and free speach even For our new citizens is a

Protected right.

 

To the "Empire" haters

Celebrate in your minds the now and fight  with the same fervour for the present, the now and the future,

for all peoples rights.   History of Europe is not steeped with honours on human rights, 100+yrs we , or better said our

Rulers and governments were too busy fighting each other firstly for survival, and not to surrender to Personal ideas

on tyranny, and  an irratic idea on loyalties to ones country.

Because of That european history that time of civilization and country  Building, nobody of African or Asia origin

has any rightvto ask for Political retribution, apologies, or financial Address. Look back at What your Own Peoples

Crimes against humans Within their own Societies were, or the  tribal or township civilisations discriminations

that  even today runs Rife.

The strange, the funny thing that is never Chased, hounded or hunted down or criticised from these critics of

British history is the racism and tribal hate in Africa, Racism in atonymous groups, in v Africa, Asia, middle east

And across Afghanistan , and through the old lands of Persia.

Another Thing shocked me was when visiting various West-Indian islands was

the way house servants were poorly appreciated and handled .

The Cast system or types of , is nothing but an embroided internal racist issue. 

 

THE Scots sold out their own, and were never united, their clans blew any ideas of self rule out.

The Irish were right...The UK government was wrong and shit to the Irish, but no worse v than they were to

Their own uk citizens.

 

 

 

It's a very good point , but it's. point born out of how poorly British history is taught and how whitewashed that history has become , but I appreciate and respect the sentiment in your reply 

[Guest MattP]

Good on him for sticking up for his principles in an age where so many people claim to have them in public life but completely do the opposite in their private ones.

 

As for the British Empire, we should be no more proud nor more ashamed of it than any other grand empire.

[Darkon84]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Good on him for sticking up for his principles in an age where so many people claim to have them in public life but completely do the opposite in their private ones.

 

As for the British Empire, we should be no more proud nor more ashamed of it than any other grand empire.

 

Sorry mate, I usually agree with you on most things, but he doesn't actually state his principles at all. He says accepting an MBE would go against what he believes, but doesn't say what those things are. It just strikes me as the usual virtue signalling we commonly see today without backing it up.

 

Just another case of 'Britain and the white man's game of divide and conquer are evil' (to slightly over exaggerate)  

[David Guiza]

3 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

 

Sorry mate, I usually agree with you on most things, but he doesn't actually state his principles at all. He says accepting an MBE would go against what he believes, but doesn't say what those things are. It just strikes me as the usual virtue signalling we commonly see today without backing it up.

 

Just another case of 'Britain and the white man's game of divide and conquer are evil' (to slightly over exaggerate)  

He cites his reasoning fairly well here https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/15/howard-gayle-mbe-liverpool-first-black-footballer

 

I'm with him completely, though I'm from a Royalist so that's a given. It's not on the same level as the media attention around the Colin Kaepernick story in the US, but I personally feel that even the slightest action, regardless of how large or minuscule, is important, even if it is just to massage your own ego. I just wish more people would refuse awards, honours, invitations. The likes of Messi for example who would seemingly do most things for an extra couple of quid http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/babb/11780380/Lionel-Messi-criticised-by-Human-Rights-Foundation-for-Gabon-trip.html . 

[Darkon84]

5 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

He cites his reasoning fairly well here https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/15/howard-gayle-mbe-liverpool-first-black-footballer

 

I'm with him completely, though I'm from a Royalist so that's a given. It's not on the same level as the media attention around the Colin Kaepernick story in the US, but I personally feel that even the slightest action, regardless of how large or minuscule, is important, even if it is just to massage your own ego. I just wish more people would refuse awards, honours, invitations. The likes of Messi for example who would seemingly do most things for an extra couple of quid http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/babb/11780380/Lionel-Messi-criticised-by-Human-Rights-Foundation-for-Gabon-trip.html . 

 

Touche, it does explain his choice a bit more in that article, whereas the BBC one had no background at all. I still find this sort of thing rather awkward and never as simple as principle. Essentially, he would accept it if the name was something different. It isn't an award from 200 years ago, it's an award to recognize the good work he's done, and simply because it has a connotation to something he doesn't like, he wont' accept it. Considering Liverpool was the main port for British slavery, it's slightly ironic that he played happily in that place but now won't accept an award for something honouring his good work, simply because of the name of the award. I get that some of the things our colonialism did was pretty damn bad, but the obsession with painting it all as 100% atrocities, and that everyone today should pay for it is pretty boring now.

Maybe I'm being unnecessarily picky, maybe I'm being deliberately awkward (I'm incredibly tired and hungover today, so accept my apologies) but I'm just bloody sick and tired of virtue signalling like the Kaepernick shite these days.

[fuchsntf]

5 hours ago, GaelicFox said:

It's a very good point , but it's. point born out of how poorly British history is taught and how whitewashed that history has become , but I appreciate and respect the sentiment in your reply 

My  major history lessons learnings and studies were nothing born on my British Schooling.

Dont underestimate peoples characters of being able to look beyond local teachings indoctrination.

Then look at languages..All of us are brainwashed to take on our mother tongue, traditions, and even football teams.

Even our rebellous character within us are based on mis-leading ideas and unqualified facts.

Plus British or european history thankfully will never get away with whitewashes....

Japenese and chinese ancient history, even has been exposed because peoples needs to know and documentation

Contradictions to winners right to write Their own history, is debunked on every wave of historian truth makers.

Empire haters forget to realise, european empires civilians and documakers dont deny their history good or bad.

[simFox]

On 14/10/2016 at 00:41, fuchsntf said:

Stuff I agree with

 

 

Excellent post, couldn't have said it better so I won't!

[foxy boxing]

I can see his point that the British empire is no more and these medals for him are a sign of British colonial past but he is getting his medal for services to sport and charity and has nothing to do nowadays with the empire. he is being celebrated for what he has achieved and should take it in the spirit it was intended

[Nick]

1 hour ago, foxy boxing said:

I can see his point that the British empire is no more and these medals for him are a sign of British colonial past but he is getting his medal for services to sport and charity and has nothing to do nowadays with the empire. he is being celebrated for what he has achieved and should take it in the spirit it was intended

So perhaps we should call it a medal or honour for services to sport and equality rather than push a penis up his bottom and ask him to take it in the spirit we intended?