The rise of nationalism.

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, Claridge said:

America having to sought it out?

Yup, along with most of Europe being reduced to piles of smoking ash and bodies.

 

11 minutes ago, Wookie said:

The Germans always win on penalties?

Well, in the past their opponents have always managed to win in the 90...

 

The aforementioned piles of smoking ash and dead bodies notwithstanding in that victory.

[Parafox]

Why can't we be nationalistic. It means we support our country's beliefs and goals... Oo'er,, sounds like racism already,,, There's no escaping the fact that nationalism equals racism in the modern world.

If that's the case then all countries and indigenous nationalists in all countries are racists.Face it. Racism is inherent in all countries, it's how it's managed and the level of tolerance that makes us live together in peace.

We are a tolerant nation but that doesn't mean we aren't nationalistic. Nor does nationalism it mean we are racist.

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, Parafox said:

Why can't we be nationalistic. It means we support our country's beliefs and goals... Oo'er,, sounds like racism already,,, There's no escaping the fact that nationalism equals racism in the modern world.

If that's the case then all countries and indigenous nationalists in all countries are racists.Face it. Racism is inherent in all countries, it's how it's managed and the level of tolerance that makes us live together in peace.

We are a tolerant nation but that doesn't mean we aren't nationalistic. Nor does nationalism it mean we are racist.

Reasonably sure your initial definition is patriotism rather than nationalism, PF.

 

And no, I don't think that believing your patch to be inherently superior to the other guys patch is something ingrained into us. Or if it is, it's bad news and really isn't a good thing for the future.

[GazzinderFox]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Reasonably sure your initial definition is patriotism rather than nationalism, PF.

 

And no, I don't think that believing your patch to be inherently superior to the other guys patch is something ingrained into us. Or if it is, it's bad news and really isn't a good thing for the future.

According to the internet dictionary Nationalism means "patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts."

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, GazzinderFox said:

According to the internet dictionary Nationalism means "patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts."

Intriguing. I dug a little deeper and looked up the Merriam Webster definition:

 

"a feeling that people have of being loyal to and proud of their country often with the belief that it is better and more important than other countries."

 

So often with the feeling of superiority, but not always, it would seem.

 

Mind you, I don't think it takes a genius to make the distinction that being proud of your country is fine, but thinking it's inherently better and more important than other countries because reasons is not fine. That's how wars tend to kick off, after all.

[theessexfox]

17 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Intriguing. I dug a little deeper and looked up the Merriam Webster definition:

 

"a feeling that people have of being loyal to and proud of their country often with the belief that it is better and more important than other countries."

 

So often with the feeling of superiority, but not always, it would seem.

 

Mind you, I don't think it takes a genius to make the distinction that being proud of your country is fine, but thinking it's inherently better and more important than other countries because reasons is not fine. That's how wars tend to kick off, after all.

Do you not think feelings of cultural superiority can ever be justified? Would I be wrong to think that the legal code and cultural norms of the UK are superior to many aspects of Sharia Law, where women are totally denied their rights and flogging and executions can be routinely carried out without redress?

[Guest]

8 hours ago, GazzinderFox said:

According to the internet dictionary Nationalism means "patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts."

Doesn't go on to describe how those things are manifested does it?

[Barky]

7 hours ago, theessexfox said:

Do you not think feelings of cultural superiority can ever be justified? Would I be wrong to think that the legal code and cultural norms of the UK are superior to many aspects of Sharia Law, where women are totally denied their rights and flogging and executions can be routinely carried out without redress?

More about the people I think isn't it? Do I prefer our legal system to sharia law? Of course. Many muslims obviously prefer their legal system. No problem. Do I believe my preference makes me an inherently superior person to the person who prefers sharia law? No, that would some 'ism' of some sort.

[Guest MattP]

10 hours ago, Webbo said:

Don't confuse nationalism with a contempt for the sneering elite. People are sick of political correctness and all the double standards that exist within it. They're sick of having there genuine concerns ridiculed by well off Guardian readers, pop stars and luvvies. Sick of being told they're too thick to understand the issue and to leave it to experts like them with a long track record of getting things wrong.

 

This vote  was a massive 2 fingered salute to the establishment. Maybe things will work out well, maybe they won't but I guarantee , next time the establishment will listen

Absolutely, although I think you are being optimistic that establishment will listen, my guess is they will bury the head in the sand, plough on and hope for a different result next time, Bonnie Greer summed it up reading the papers last night on Sky, it was angry white poor men, even when confronted with the numbers and that white woman actually voted for Trump is was still angry poor white men, then when they flashed the graph up that lower paid people were actually voting Clinton and Trump lead in the $50,000PA category? Nope, it was still angry white men, because she says so.

 

That's what we are dealing with, a complete denial of any realism even with the facts being thrown in her face, it was painful to watch.

 

Not all, but a lot of people in that sneering elite, who are almost exclusively on the left, these days have nothing to offer the voters but identity politics and outrage, flick onto any episode of Question Time and whatever the issue you'll have a Labour MP sat there saying something along the lines of how upset they are and how this will impact women or how offended they are because someone in their constituency is genderqueer.

 

We need to celebrate it really because for guys like me with our opinions and you it's fantastic and means most of the populace won't take them remotly seriously.

 

7 hours ago, theessexfox said:

Do you not think feelings of cultural superiority can ever be justified? Would I be wrong to think that the legal code and cultural norms of the UK are superior to many aspects of Sharia Law, where women are totally denied their rights and flogging and executions can be routinely carried out without redress?

Definitely, some cultures are vastly superior to others, I could never with a straight face Western cultures that have achieved things like the moon landings are of a level standard to an Aboriginal one that has leant on a spear for 3,000 years.

 

I have no problem at all saying our legal system, which guarantees equality is vastly superior to Sharia, which discriminates on the basis of things the human sat in it has had no control over.

[yorkie1999]

11 hours ago, Spiritwalker said:

I think the previous post answers  your question

i wasn't looking for an answer.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

I think one of the problems is that racists tend to use nationalism as an excuse for their racism.

 

That's what blurred the lines.

[Spiritwalker]

1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

i wasn't looking for an answer.

Then don't ask a question.

[Voll Blau]

13 hours ago, Strokes said:

Its funny though because in some countries it seems perfectly acceptable to be showing nationlism but in others its seens as deplorable. The scottish population for instance have been a very nationlist for as long as i can remember and that was just cute.

In short i dont take issue with nationlism per se (we show it in sport, so why not politics?) but its the extremes that follow it around that we must be careful of.

I think it depends on the kind of nationalism. If you're talking civic nationalism of the kinds practised by Plaid Cymru, SNP etc (i.e. doesn't matter about your ethnic background, if you share our values and want to work for the good of everyone in the nation you're in) then I don't really have a problem with it. Ethnic nationalism really winds me up though. You're not superior to anyone purely by accident of birth/heritage.

 

12 hours ago, Webbo said:

Don't confuse nationalism with a contempt for the sneering elite. People are sick of political correctness and all the double standards that exist within it. They're sick of having there genuine concerns ridiculed by well off Guardian readers, pop stars and luvvies. Sick of being told they're too thick to understand the issue and to leave it to experts like them with a long track record of getting things wrong.

 

This vote  was a massive 2 fingered salute to the establishment. Maybe things will work out well, maybe they won't but I guarantee , next time the establishment will listen

By electing a billionaire. Wat Tyler would be proud.

[leicsmac]

9 hours ago, theessexfox said:

Do you not think feelings of cultural superiority can ever be justified? Would I be wrong to think that the legal code and cultural norms of the UK are superior to many aspects of Sharia Law, where women are totally denied their rights and flogging and executions can be routinely carried out without redress?

 

As has been said above, there is a difference between believing you do things better than other countries and believing you are inherently (key word) superior to other places just because of where you were born. You can trace pretty much every major war in the past couple of centuries to people feeling the latter, either because of their nation or religion.

[Guest MattP]

20 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

By electing a billionaire. Wat Tyler would be proud.

People keep conflating this, just because you are wealthy doesn't mean you can't be against or challenge the lines and opinions the establishment throws upon the people/

 

You can be anti-establishment whilst brought up in a big house/rich etc, Jeremy Corbyn is a prime example.

[BigFoxForYou]

21 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

By electing a billionaire.

He's a political outsider. With Clinton's campaign costs running over $1.3 Billion I don't think your local plumber is going to have much of a shot. Electing someone who runs against the grain of the political zeitgeist is still a **** you, billionaire or otherwise.

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Absolutely, although I think you are being optimistic that establishment will listen, my guess is they will bury the head in the sand, plough on and hope for a different result next time, Bonnie Greer summed it up reading the papers last night on Sky, it was angry white poor men, even when confronted with the numbers and that white woman actually voted for Trump is was still angry poor white men, then when they flashed the graph up that lower paid people were actually voting Clinton and Trump lead in the $50,000PA category? Nope, it was still angry white men, because she says so.

 

That's what we are dealing with, a complete denial of any realism even with the facts being thrown in her face, it was painful to watch.

 

Not all, but a lot of people in that sneering elite, who are almost exclusively on the left, these days have nothing to offer the voters but identity politics and outrage, flick onto any episode of Question Time and whatever the issue you'll have a Labour MP sat there saying something along the lines of how upset they are and how this will impact women or how offended they are because someone in their constituency is genderqueer.

 

We need to celebrate it really because for guys like me with our opinions and you it's fantastic and means most of the populace won't take them remotly seriously.

 

Definitely, some cultures are vastly superior to others, I could never with a straight face Western cultures that have achieved things like the moon landings are of a level standard to an Aboriginal one that has leant on a spear for 3,000 years.

 

I have no problem at all saying our legal system, which guarantees equality is vastly superior to Sharia, which discriminates on the basis of things the human sat in it has had no control over.

Come on Matt, it definitely was a disregard for the middle classes by the establishment that was a key factor in Trump winning but can you really blame people for talking about a perfectly legitimate fear that a lot of people have that they're about to get shafted in terms of hard won rights? It might not happen, but those fears should be allayed, not belittled.

 

PS. I'll sort out the Loros donation today.

[Innovindil]

What really irks me is that we see these reports about how the country is racially divided yet get told we must all get along and cuddle with each other by people who don't have these problems. 

 

There is nothing  racist, nor has there ever been anything racist, about wanting to be around people who share the same morals as you, speak the same language as you, want the same education for your children etc etc

 

It's not just white people that flock to areas of "their own", it's everyone. 

[GazzinderFox]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

As has been said above, there is a difference between believing you do things better than other countries and believing you are inherently (key word) superior to other places just because of where you were born. You can trace pretty much every major war in the past couple of centuries to people feeling the latter, either because of their nation or religion.

Which raises some questions. Why do some countries thrive and some countries fail to thrive? Why do civilizations rise and fall? Why do we live in a world of empires, where some nations feel an inherent need to go and make some countries more like their own? Including our own efforts in the last 25 years to foist western style democracy onto countries that either don't seem to want it or where it seems impossible for it to work? If Sharia law is 'wrong' should we not actively be trying to stamp it out in other countries because our system of law is 'inherently' better?

 

I don't have the answers by the way! 

[foxy boxing]

people are sick and tired of being told what to do and having rules put on us by other countries who only have their own self(ish) interests in mind.when you give up all your laws and regulations and are told what to do by unelected and undemocratic beureucrats you have no choice but to try and fight back for your country.it is not racist or xenophobic to want to be able to run your own affairs and stop other countries meddling in that

[leicsmac]

Just now, GazzinderFox said:

Which raises some questions. Why do some countries thrive and some countries fail to thrive? Why do civilizations rise and fall? Why do we live in a world of empires, where some nations feel an inherent need to go and make some countries more like their own? Including our own efforts in the last 25 years to foist western style democracy onto countries that either don't seem to want it or where it seems impossible for it to work? If Sharia law is 'wrong' should we not actively be trying to stamp it out in other countries because our system of law is 'inherently' better?

 

I don't have the answers by the way! 

All good questions, and I don't really have an answer either.

 

The only thing I can say with any certainty is that war is shit, and that aggressive ethnic nationalism is often the cause.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, foxy boxing said:

people are sick and tired of being told what to do and having rules put on us by other countries who only have their own self(ish) interests in mind.when you give up all your laws and regulations and are told what to do by unelected and undemocratic beureucrats you have no choice but to try and fight back for your country.it is not racist or xenophobic to want to be able to run your own affairs and stop other countries meddling in that

Exactly. And I'm sure the folks in Iraq and Afghanistan feel exactly the same, which is why they've been up for a scrap for the last decade or two.

 

Of course, their methods of fight are rather less elegant.

[Buce]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Absolutely, although I think you are being optimistic that establishment will listen, my guess is they will bury the head in the sand, plough on and hope for a different result next time, Bonnie Greer summed it up reading the papers last night on Sky, it was angry white poor men, even when confronted with the numbers and that white woman actually voted for Trump is was still angry poor white men, then when they flashed the graph up that lower paid people were actually voting Clinton and Trump lead in the $50,000PA category? Nope, it was still angry white men, because she says so.

 

That's what we are dealing with, a complete denial of any realism even with the facts being thrown in her face, it was painful to watch.

 

Not all, but a lot of people in that sneering elite, who are almost exclusively on the left, these days have nothing to offer the voters but identity politics and outrage, flick onto any episode of Question Time and whatever the issue you'll have a Labour MP sat there saying something along the lines of how upset they are and how this will impact women or how offended they are because someone in their constituency is genderqueer.

 

We need to celebrate it really because for guys like me with our opinions and you it's fantastic and means most of the populace won't take them remotly seriously.

 

Definitely, some cultures are vastly superior to others, I could never with a straight face Western cultures that have achieved things like the moon landings are of a level standard to an Aboriginal one that has leant on a spear for 3,000 years.

 

I have no problem at all saying our legal system, which guarantees equality is vastly superior to Sharia, which discriminates on the basis of things the human sat in it has had no control over.

 

Technological development is merely one measure of cultural success; there are ways in which 'aboriginal' (sic) cultures are vastly superior to ours, particularly historically (think of the Aztecs, the Inca, the Mayans - Stone Age peoples, without the wheel, who managed to build things of stone by hand, to a standard that we couldn't match with all our technology).

[GazzinderFox]

12 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Exactly. And I'm sure the folks in Iraq and Afghanistan feel exactly the same, which is why they've been up for a scrap for the last decade or two.

 

Of course, their methods of fight are rather less elegant.

The Afghans have been scrapping from time immemorial. The only way to stop people fighting there would be to remove all the people! They are a deeply divided tribal culture that love nothing more than a good Kalashnikov fight. Why do you think the taliban made it their headquarters in the first place?

 

I was a 20 year old working on an Australian vineyard when the US invaded in 2001. I was working with a group of Afghan refugees, they told us that there would never be peace there, because as soon as one group becomes dominant the others all start warring against them, and it just becomes a never ending cycle of violence. It was already one one the poorest countries in the world for this very reason.

 

Afghan nationalism means diddly squat to the average afghan, they aren't fighting because of that.     

[GazzinderFox]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Technological development is merely one measure of cultural success; there are ways in which 'aboriginal' (sic) cultures are vastly superior to ours, particularly historically (think of the Aztecs, the Inca, the Mayans - Stone Age peoples, without the wheel, who managed to build things of stone by hand, to a standard that we couldn't match with all our technology).

I agree with you to an extent, I still marvel when I stand in a massive cathedral where everything lines up perfectly and I think how did they do that!

 

But...

 

a) surely these people were the most technologically advanced people of there age. and

b) all the people groups you mention are no longer with us as they were taken over by more advanced cultures.