The rise of nationalism.

[Spiritwalker]

There seems to be a worrying rise in nationalism. While some will point to other factors at play for the shock results in America and Brexit such as anti politics it's hard to deny that nationalism has played a large part. Across Europe nationalist parties are growing in popularity and in Russia there appears to a rise of nationalism. History shows nationalism is recipe for conflict and while I'm sure we are a long way from that, the direction we are going is cause for concern.

[Strokes]

Its funny though because in some countries it seems perfectly acceptable to be showing nationlism but in others its seens as deplorable. The scottish population for instance have been a very nationlist for as long as i can remember and that was just cute.

In short i dont take issue with nationlism per se (we show it in sport, so why not politics?) but its the extremes that follow it around that we must be careful of.

[leicsmac]

Being proud of your country is patriotism.

 

Believing your country inherently superior to others is nationalism.

 

One is positive, the other negative, and it's sad how often the two get mixed up.

[yorkie1999]

Is it nationalism or patriotism,  oops better not say that or I'll be branded a racist.

[Spiritwalker]

7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Its funny though because in some countries it seems perfectly acceptable to be showing nationlism but in others its seens as deplorable. The scottish population for instance have been a very nationlist for as long as i can remember and that was just cute.

In short i dont take issue with nationlism per se (we show it in sport, so why not politics?) but its the extremes that follow it around that we must be careful of.

In sport I always think it's a good way to get things off our chest without

actually having to go into battle. I'm sure there were a couple feisty USA 

v Russia ice hockey games during the Cold War.

[Finnaldo]

16 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Its funny though because in some countries it seems perfectly acceptable to be showing nationlism but in others its seens as deplorable. The scottish population for instance have been a very nationlist for as long as i can remember and that was just cute.

In short i dont take issue with nationlism per se (we show it in sport, so why not politics?) but its the extremes that follow it around that we must be careful of.

 

Scotland is a non-player in World politics though and has very little international leverage. With the rise of Putin's Nationalism we've seen Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. Even the Philippines, a midcard in international politics but a very important one in its region, has seen a authoritarian and to some extent Nationalistic Rodrigo Duterte allow summary executions of 'dug dealers' and he's close to kicking the US out and hugging up to China which massively changes the geopolitical landscape there. And that's before we get into the rise of Trump, Brexit and Mainland Europe's Nationalistic rise.

 

[Spiritwalker]

4 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Is it nationalism or patriotism,  oops better not say that or I'll be branded a racist.

I think the previous post answers  your question

[Guest Sharpe's Fox]

Brexit and Trump is one thing but the most dramatic rise of nationalism worldwide has been in Scotland. Being against globalisation is a legitimate political argument (even though with the neo-liberal consensus it wasn't for a long time) but state building with Scotland's economic prospects is barmy. Maybe it's because people think the SNP are progressive (they're not) but it's scary what these Scot Nats are so keen on.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

There is no clear black and white divide between patriotism and nationalism. It is in the grey area between, that is dominant at this moment in time, for millions of decent people, in which I would include myself.

[Webbo]

Don't confuse nationalism with a contempt for the sneering elite. People are sick of political correctness and all the double standards that exist within it. They're sick of having there genuine concerns ridiculed by well off Guardian readers, pop stars and luvvies. Sick of being told they're too thick to understand the issue and to leave it to experts like them with a long track record of getting things wrong.

 

This vote  was a massive 2 fingered salute to the establishment. Maybe things will work out well, maybe they won't but I guarantee , next time the establishment will listen

[Spiritwalker]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Don't confuse nationalism with a contempt for the sneering elite. People are sick of political correctness and all the double standards that exist within it. They're sick of having there genuine concerns ridiculed by well off Guardian readers, pop stars and luvvies. Sick of being told they're too thick to understand the issue and to leave it to experts like them with a long track record of getting things wrong.

So you don't think that Trump courted the nationalists vote by promising to 

ban Muslims from entering the country and to build a wall between the US

and Mexico?

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

There is no clear black and white divide between patriotism and nationalism. It is in the grey area between, that is dominant at this moment in time, for millions of decent people, in which I would include myself.

I disagree. There is a pretty clear distinction between the two, determined by attitude towards other countries and peoples.

 

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Don't confuse nationalism with a contempt for the sneering elite. People are sick of political correctness and all the double standards that exist within it. They're sick of having there genuine concerns ridiculed by well off Guardian readers, pop stars and luvvies. Sick of being told they're too thick to understand the issue and to leave it to experts like them with a long track record of getting things wrong.

 

This vote  was a massive 2 fingered salute to the establishment. Maybe things will work out well, maybe they won't but I guarantee , next time the establishment will listen

Yep, they will.

 

But a point that continues to be made is that the people who want to give this two fingers to the establishment are the ones who will suffer least from the consequences of doing so. So don't pretend there isn't at least some self interest in there.

[Webbo]

3 minutes ago, Spiritwalker said:

So you don't think that Trump courted the nationalists vote by promising to 

ban Muslims from entering the country and to build a wall between the US

and Mexico?

Obviously some racists voted Trump, that's not the same as nationalism

Just now, leicsmac said:

I disagree. There is a pretty clear distinction between the two, determined by attitude towards other countries and peoples.

 

Yep, they will.

 

But a point that continues to be made is that the people who want to give this two fingers to the establishment are the ones who will suffer least from the consequences of doing so. So don't pretend there isn't at least some self interest in there.

There's nothing wrong with self interest.

[MPH]

Dare i say it , and, please dont  take this as a Britain first type of post, but the way they have gone about Multiculturalism i ( not multculturalism itself) in Britain doesn't seem to of worked well and has left some people feeling like they have been marginalized in their own country.. This could be partly why people are more keen to show open patriotism and for others to have their actions perceived as, and to sometimes genuinely be nationalism...

 

 

Its a small slice of the pie/ answer

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

There's nothing wrong with self interest.

Up to a point.

[bovril]

14 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Don't confuse nationalism with a contempt for the sneering elite. People are sick of political correctness and all the double standards that exist within it. They're sick of having there genuine concerns ridiculed by well off Guardian readers, pop stars and luvvies. Sick of being told they're too thick to understand the issue and to leave it to experts like them with a long track record of getting things wrong.

 

This vote  was a massive 2 fingered salute to the establishment. Maybe things will work out well, maybe they won't but I guarantee , next time the establishment will listen

Equally some people resent being called sneering and elitist because they read the Guardian, prefered Clinton and voted remain. I'm guilty on all charges, but I certainly dont 'despise the working class' as some would believe I do.

 

The sneering goes both ways. We live In the age of the sneer. If people vote solely to piss off the other side, well I can kind of see the appeal but still think it's foolish.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

Equally some people resent being called sneering and elitist because they read the Guardian, prefered Clinton and voted remain. I'm guilty on all charges, but I certainly dont 'despise the working class' as some would believe I do.

 

The sneering goes both ways. We live In the age of the sneer. If people vote solely to piss off the other side, well I can kind of see the appeal but still think it's foolish.

I don't vote solely to piss on the other side but it is a nice bonus.

[Lionator]

Maybe the nationalism has always been there but the centre and left's openness to it has diminished in this 'politically correct' western world of 2016. This is why the brexit vote and last night's vote went in the direction they did, shutting down immediately people who maybe are apprehensive about immigration be it through a lack of education or ignorance. Instead of calling bigotry on those people, the Clinton's of this world could maybe show more understanding and then sway the voter in that direction through educating them. Instead these people have been left angry, of course they're going to vote the other way if they're not listened to.  

[Barky]

Seems to me the only people who voted republican are the same people who usually vote republican. There wasn't a dramatic shift in the make up of republican voters, or really any sort of shift at all. So I don't see any evidence of this being anti-establishment. Surely voting for an old money billionaire representing one of the big two parties would be a rather bizarre way to express anti establishment sentiment anyway? 

 

Really I don't think there was actually anything unusual about this election except for the incredibly low quality of the candidates and the fact that it became a genuine contest over the least worst option. Any remotely decent candidate on either side would have pissed it.

[Webbo]

25 minutes ago, bovril said:

Equally some people resent being called sneering and elitist because they read the Guardian, prefered Clinton and voted remain. I'm guilty on all charges, but I certainly dont 'despise the working class' as some would believe I do.

 

The sneering goes both ways. We live In the age of the sneer. If people vote solely to piss off the other side, well I can kind of see the appeal but still think it's foolish.

I seriously doubt I would have voted for either. I do get tired of people with no empathy for the people who voted for Trump assuming that they must nationalists, racists or a bit thick .

 

I watched the first 2 episodes of this year's  HIGNFY and both times Ian Hislop said something like "I can't say anything else I'll be called a remoner or elitist". There's a man who's made a living at sneering at people's political views but gets huffy when people do it to him. 

 

 

[Vlad the Fox]

Economics, brexit and trump were mainly results of people not liking the current system, yet nationalism always rises when the masses are struggling economically, when the majority of people feel wealthy they aren't too troubled by nationalist issues however when work is hard to come by and money short it gives voice to nationalist propaganda which more people are prepared to take on board. 

 

Fear, and the actions and arrogance of politicians over recent years all contribute put the economy is a great pacifier to nationalism.

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, Vlad the Fox said:

Economics, brexit and trump were mainly results of people not liking the current system, yet nationalism always rises when the masses are struggling economically, when the majority of people feel wealthy they aren't too troubled by nationalist issues however when work is hard to come by and money short it gives voice to nationalist propaganda which more people are prepared to take on board. 

 

Fear, and the actions and arrogance of politicians over recent years all contribute put the economy is a great pacifier to nationalism.

There's something in this.

 

What worries me is in history, economic downturns followed by the rise of nationalist movements have, as a rule, only ended one way.

[Claridge]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

There's something in this.

 

What worries me is in history, economic downturns followed by the rise of nationalist movements have, as a rule, only ended one way.

America having to sought it out?

[Stadt]

15 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

There's something in this.

 

What worries me is in history, economic downturns followed by the rise of nationalist movements have, as a rule, only ended one way.

The Germans always win on penalties?

[Wymsey]

I love my country  but not a nationalist as we're behind in fields such as international football, medicine, education/teaching compared to other European countries that's important to general society - and not sure, in the long-term, whether our country will see it's potential during getting used to less European support etc in a few years time.