Musa - Opinions so far

[Finnegan]

6 minutes ago, Babylon said:

And since the Hull game? That's the only game I had in mind where he'd been really poor and missed some very good chances.

 

"He's the type of centre forward or type of finisher that is very much head down and hit it. He goes for power a lot. He's not necessarily a real cute, classy type of finisher.

 

"He doesn't once lift his head. He almost hits it through goalkeepers. To be a finisher like that you need a lot of luck – sometimes you'll have it, sometimes you won't."

 

"But then again Alan Shearer used a lot of brute force and power. He was a different type – not everyone finishes the same way.

 

The actual quote from Owen, he actually seems to question himself at the end.

 

 

But it's complete rubbish because Vardy almost never hits it through a keeper. They're nearly always tucked in the far corner across goal.

[AKCJ]

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

He's certainly not someone who does a side foot place and he does like to get his laces on the ball. But he knows exactly what he's doing and exactly where he's trying to put it. And as we've seen the last 18 months... he gets it there more often that not. If you keep doing it, at what point do people accept you know what you are doing, rather than just someone who smacks it with little thought?

 

3 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

But it's complete rubbish because Vardy almost never hits it through a keeper. They're nearly always tucked in the far corner across goal.

Vardy's first was a ****ing excellent finish.

 

He hit it with enough power to ensure that Bravo couldn't reach it, yet with enough dip on it to ensure that it nestled in the bottom corner.

 

For someone who hasn't had a real goalscoring chance in 16 games he executed it to perfection.

[Manwell Pablo]

15 minutes ago, Babylon said:

And since the Hull game? That's the only game I had in mind where he'd been really poor and missed some very good chances.

 

"He's the type of centre forward or type of finisher that is very much head down and hit it. He goes for power a lot. He's not necessarily a real cute, classy type of finisher.

 

"He doesn't once lift his head. He almost hits it through goalkeepers. To be a finisher like that you need a lot of luck – sometimes you'll have it, sometimes you won't."

 

"But then again Alan Shearer used a lot of brute force and power. He was a different type – not everyone finishes the same way.

 

The actual quote from Owen, he actually seems to question himself at the end.

 

 Convenient, I can't remember every time he misses Babs he missed an 8 yard header against WBA recently, he had a late half chance against Watford he put well wide. Put it this way before Man City he'd had over 25 shots and 2 goals in CL and PL (and I don't think the polo foot incident against Hull even counted ) so they're going somewhere and it's not in the net. Obviously Saturday helped him out a bit in that department but not a great ratio before that, undoubtedly he is getting fewer chances this season though. 

 

Well this is what I mean you're all reading a bit much into it and getting offended a bit easily and this is why I think it's not totally invalid comment, I don't think he is intentionally having a go, Vardy does opt for power a lot when perhaps he doesn't need to, he unquestionable is out of line with the "luck through the keeper comment", just that there is an element of truth in what he says and this is why Vardy doesn't score 20 every season and will probably struggle to score over 20 again. Unlike the more natural top level strikers, to use a really crap Football Manager analogy he will always be more more of a 15 than a 20 for me. 

Edited 13 December 2016 by Manwell Pablo

[themightyfin]

4 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 Convenient, I can't remember every time he misses Babs he missed an 8 yard header against WBA recently, he had a late half chance against Watford he put well wide. Put it this way before Man City he'd had over 25 shots and 2 goals in CL and PL (and I don't think the polo foot incident against Hull even counted ) so they're going somewhere and it's not in the net. Obviously Saturday helped him out a bit in that department but not a great ratio before that, undoubtedly he is getting fewer chances this season though. 

 

Well this is what I mean you're all reading a bit much into it and getting offended a bit easily and this is why I think it's not totally invalid comment, I don't think he is intentionally having a go, Vardy does opt for power a lot when perhaps he doesn't need to, he unquestionable is out of line with the "luck through the keeper comment", just that there is an element of truth in what he says and this is why Vardy doesn't score 20 every season and will probably struggle to score over 20 again. Unlike the more natural top level strikers, to use a really crap Football Manager analogy he will always be more more of a 15 than a 20 for me. 

Surely it depends how many chances he's getting?

Can't remember a better finisher we have had than him for years tbh. 

[Manwell Pablo]

5 minutes ago, themightyfin said:

Surely it depends how many chances he's getting?

Can't remember a better finisher we have had than him for years tbh. 

 

Hardly have a long line of natural goal scorers do we, especially in recent years. 

 

Obviously is all relevant to the level you play at, Fryatt was a natural goal scorer in League One.

[Finnegan]

I'm really struggling to find an average conversion rate for last season but here's some that are basically the closest I can get. Source is whoscored but it only gives me shots per game, total games and total goals. So:

 

Comparing Kane, Aguero and Vardy last year:

 

Kane takes 4.2 shots a game, Aguero 4, Vardy 3.2.

 

Kane's 25 goals come at approx 0.66 goals per game, Vardy's 24 is about 0.67 per game and Aguero's 0.8 goals per game.

 

So that means Harry Kane took 6.4 shots to score a goal, Jamie Vardy took 4.8 shots to score a goal and Sergio Aguero took about 5 shots per goal.

 

So, basically, wind your neck in Mablo/Michael Owen. 

 

 

@Alexikokopops will tell me if I've worked that out wrong, I'm only a junior statistician, he's the pro.

Edited 13 December 2016 by Finnegan

[Col city fan]

44 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Hardly have a long line of natural goal scorers do we, especially in recent years. 

 

Obviously is all relevant to the level you play at, Fryatt was a natural goal scorer in League One.

I think it's very very difficult to call Jamie Vardy anything other than a natural goalscorer after last season!

If scoring the amount of goals he did in the most competitive division on the planet doesn't constitute 'naturally goal scoring' I don't know what does!

[Manwell Pablo]

13 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

I think it's very very difficult to call Jamie Vardy anything other than a natural goalscorer after last season!

If scoring the amount of goals he did in the most competitive division on the planet doesn't constitute 'naturally goal scoring' I don't know what does!

 

Doing it consistently? 

 

Would you Say Grant Holt is a natural finisher? Many a donkey had one good season in the Prem. 

Edited 13 December 2016 by Manwell Pablo

[Manwell Pablo]

37 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

I'm really struggling to find an average conversion rate for last season but here's some that are basically the closest I can get. Source is whoscored but it only gives me shots per game, total games and total goals. So:

 

Comparing Kane, Aguero and Vardy last year:

 

Kane takes 4.2 shots a game, Aguero 4, Vardy 3.2.

 

Kane's 25 goals come at approx 0.66 goals per game, Vardy's 24 is about 0.67 per game and Aguero's 0.8 goals per game.

 

So that means Harry Kane took 6.4 shots to score a goal, Jamie Vardy took 4.8 shots to score a goal and Sergio Aguero took about 5 shots per goal.

 

So, basically, wind your neck in Mablo/Michael Owen. 

 

 

@Alexikokopops will tell me if I've worked that out wrong, I'm only a junior statistician, he's the pro.

 

The very simple difference there is Kane and Aguero have scored 20 goals before and will probably score 20 goals again. Pro's like us take that into account. 

 

 

[Babylon]

3 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

The very simple difference there is Kane and Aguero have scored 20 goals before and will probably score 20 goals again. Pro's like us take that into account. 

 

 

He's currently averaging half the shots per game he had last season, he'll struggle to get close to 15 unless we start creating a regular steam of good chances that the other guys get.

[Col city fan]

7 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Doing it consistently? 

 

Would you Say Grant Holt is a natural finisher? Many a donkey had one good season in the Prem. 

Nah. Can't agree with this. Did you not see some of the goals he's scored for us over the years? Chance....bang.....goal

He's a confidence player and can only score a certain type of goal. That much is true. But you can't do what he's done without knowing where the net is. 

It's mainly about supply with Vardy. Give it to him in the right way and he'll score goals.

I've said before. If he had gone to Arsenal and was being played in every week by Ozil, Sanchez, the Ox etc. I think he'd be the league's top goalscorer by now.

[Col city fan]

2 minutes ago, Babylon said:

He's currently averaging half the shots per game he had last season, he'll struggle to get close to 15 unless we start creating a regular steam of good chances that the other guys get.

Nail on head imo.

[Manwell Pablo]

1 minute ago, Babylon said:

He's currently averaging half the shots per game he had last season, he'll struggle to get close to 15 unless we start creating a regular steam of good chances that the other guys get.

 

Ok very true although personally think it is a little blind to put the solely at the door of those creating the chances for him and not look at his lack of dimensions as a striker, he likes to score very specific types of goals and plays in a very specific type of way. 

[Col city fan]

2 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Ok very true although personally think it is a little blind to put the solely at the door of those creating the chances for him and not look at his lack of dimensions as a striker, he likes to score very specific types of goals and plays in a very specific type of way. 

That I do agree with. See above. It doesn't make him 'not a natural finisher' though. Rather a player that usually only scores a certain type of goal. Liverpool at home last season excepted.

[Finnegan]

10 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

The very simple difference there is Kane and Aguero have scored 20 goals before and will probably score 20 goals again. Pro's like us take that into account. 

 

 

 

Kane and Aguero are the focal points for strong teams that dominate almost every game. Vardy is playing in a shit team, off form and spending most of his time pushed out in to channels to accommodate Slimani.

 

You're not a pro, Mabs, you're being contrary to wind people up. 

[Manwell Pablo]

Just now, Col city fan said:

That I do agree with. See above. It doesn't make him 'not a natural finisher' though. Rather a player that usually only scores a certain type of goal. Liverpool at home last season excepted.

 

Again I think it is down to what people think a "natural finisher" is.

 

To me it's someone capable of scoring a wide variety of goals in a wide variety of situations instinctively. Generally they will score goals most places they go (like Owen was for example)

 

To me someone can be a goal scorer, a goal threat etc without being a "natural finisher" if you get my meaning. 

[Manwell Pablo]

2 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Kane and Aguero are the focal points for strong teams that dominate almost every game. Vardy is playing in a shit team, off form and spending most of his time pushed out in to channels to accommodate Slimani.

 

You're not a pro, Mabs, you're being contrary to wind people up. 

 

I can assure I am a pro statistician .

 

I'm not being contrary at all there are plenty of people who would agree with the point, as far as I can see I am not "winding people up" either seems a reasonable discussion to me. 

[AKCJ]

18 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Doing it consistently? 

 

Would you Say Grant Holt is a natural finisher? Many a donkey had one good season in the Prem. 

Grant Holt scored 15 league goals. Not comparable to Vardy's 24.

 

 

[Col city fan]

5 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Again I think it is down to what people think a "natural finisher" is.

 

To me it's someone capable of scoring a wide variety of goals in a wide variety of situations instinctively. Generally they will score goals most places they go (like Owen was for example)

 

To me someone can be a goal scorer, a goal threat etc without being a "natural finisher" if you get my meaning. 

The most 'natural finisher' I think I've probably seen (as in, live) was Robbie Fowler. Play him in....he runs onto the ball and slam....

I see Vardy in a similar vein personally. Neither are a 'Bergkamp'...a player who could score any type of goal from anywhere, nor a 'Le Tissier' (who literally did score any type of goal). We must differ on how we see 'a natural finisher'. I see it more as a Fowler or a Vardy than a Le Tissier. 

[Manwell Pablo]

1 minute ago, Col city fan said:

The most 'natural finisher' I think I've probably seen (as in, live) was Robbie Fowler. Play him in....he runs onto the ball and slam....

I see Vardy in a similar vein personally. Neither are a 'Bergkamp'...a player who could score any type of goal from anywhere, nor a 'Le Tissier' (who literally did score any type of goal). We must differ on how we see 'a natural finisher'. I see it more as a Fowler or a Vardy than a Le Tissier. 

 

It's not so much "anywhere" but from a variety of situations.

 

The point about the angles is a good one. You always fancy Vardy more when he's got an angle especially on his right foot. 

[Manwell Pablo]

13 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Grant Holt scored 15 league goals. Not comparable to Vardy's 24.

 

 

 

Your missing my point entirely it's to do with relative over performance in one season

 

Obviously wouldn't directly compare Vardy and Grant Holt as Grant Holt is a fcking donkey. 

[AKCJ]

Just now, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Your missing my point entirely it's to do with relative over performance in one season

 

Obviously wouldn't directly compare Vardy and Grant Holt as Grant Holt is a fcking donkey. 

I'm not missing your point.

 

Any old duffer can get 15 goals a season with a bit of luck.

 

But you can't get 24 Premier Leaue goals and not be classed as a natural finisher/goalscorer.

[Manwell Pablo]

4 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

I'm not missing your point.

 

Any old duffer can get 15 goals a season with a bit of luck.

 

But you can't get 24 Premier Leaue goals and not be classed as a natural finisher/goalscorer.

 

I'll just do nothing but play devils advocate for a moment.

 

Emmanuel Adebayor? 

[AKCJ]

3 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

I'll just do nothing but play devils advocate for a moment.

 

Emmanuel Adebayor? 

Yeah, I'd call him a natural goal scorer. he's gone seriously downhill since he left Arsenal really because he's a lazy twat but there is no denying his ability in front of goal.

[Manwell Pablo]

4 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Yeah, I'd call him a natural goal scorer. he's gone seriously downhill since he left Arsenal really because he's a lazy twat but there is no denying his ability in front of goal.

 

 was genuinely interested in that reply, I'd agree. 

 

I haven't actually said I agree with Owen regarding him not being a natural finisher btw In fact I've stated on about three seperate occasions that I do not, I think he goes too far in saying that, I merely think he has a point about his finishing technique and I think that will hold him back in repeating last seasons feat and ever hitting 20 + again.