Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Thracian said:

I don't think Foxxed is very keen on Brexit. And yet some opposed to Brexit will willingly vote for a guy who'd facilitate a £10 an hour minimum wage, never mind what that would do for inflation and never mind the truism that it's not how many £'s an hour you earn so much as what those pounds will buy - and for how many people - given that a whole lot of employees would be shed if businesses became unprofitable.

 

I notice the gloom merchants have nothing to say about the economic impact of being able to tap billions of founds worth of shale and other gas both onshore and off, once we come to our senses and start getting on with the job of getting at it..

 

And even some of the "negatives" mentioned actually offer opportunities for our existing residents, who should never have been neglected or disadvantaged in the first place. If anyone seriously believes people are not going to be keen to trade with the UK, they're bad-dreaming.

 

I said little or nothing about economic upsides after the Brexit decision because I knew there'd be swings and roundabouts, some with UK dimensions and others related much more to other events.

 

But will Brexit actually happen. I'm still not convinced. There are so many cancers eating against the idea but it has to happen for me. Britain needs to be a leader instead of a follower again even a leader only of itself - and I hope France is starting to feel the same.

 

Maybe a new form of European co-operation will evolve because it needs to and quickly if anything is to remain in 10 years time.

 

But there'll need to be some radical re-thinking and I don't mean Corbynism and that kind of road to ruin although that doesn't mean there doesn't need to be a whole lot more incentive for the advancement of lower income people and improved aspirational opportunities for those people and their families.

 

And that should centre on an emphasis of responsibility involving everyone.

 

The nation for its citizens (their health, fitness, education, opportunities etc), the people for their families and those they work for and employers for their staff and their local communities to quote a few examples.

 

As I've always said about human rights - it's a flawed concept without human responsibility. And right now too many responsibilities for our communities are being neglected all round.

 

We can set an example to others but can only be responsible for our own communities because the wider responsibilities become the more the system is stretched and the weaker it becomes, resulting in the demise of many an empire throughout history and now blatantly apparent in the creaking of the EU. .       

 ..       

 

   

 

   

We absolutely should not be going after shale gas.

 

The only way we make Brexit a success - or a relative success given that it is going to be a catastrophe - given that we have no industry any more - is to go all out on new, clean energy. Lead the world and sell that expertise to the world. Make it a government led industry - anybody working in gas or oil can be retrained to work within the new energy sector and force new energy onto the private sector (all developments to include clean energy in excess of its needs). 

 

As things stand we have a dying NHS, schools on their knees, doctors, nurses and teachers leaving their professions en masse, 40% of the population living within areas of dangerous NO2 levels, an economy that in all areas other than London and the South East lags behind where it was 10 years ago, depressed wages with wage rises below inflation, a housing crises, pension crises, environmental laws being undermined by the government, high employment but at the expense of good jobs (far too reliant on minimum wage work, zero hour contracts and borderline illegal employed/self-employed practices, public sector workers at wits end (and you need them spending to keep the private sector solvent) and never ending cuts that are destroying the fabric of the country and making any real possibility of growth reaching the real economy virtually zero. 

 

We really don't need to add any further to the list by going down the rabbit hole of ignoring climate change and going all out for a dirty and possibly dangerous source of energy. 

[Thracian]

3 hours ago, toddybad said:

We absolutely should not be going after shale gas.

 

The only way we make Brexit a success - or a relative success given that it is going to be a catastrophe - given that we have no industry any more - is to go all out on new, clean energy. Lead the world and sell that expertise to the world. Make it a government led industry - anybody working in gas or oil can be retrained to work within the new energy sector and force new energy onto the private sector (all developments to include clean energy in excess of its needs). 

 

As things stand we have a dying NHS, schools on their knees, doctors, nurses and teachers leaving their professions en masse, 40% of the population living within areas of dangerous NO2 levels, an economy that in all areas other than London and the South East lags behind where it was 10 years ago, depressed wages with wage rises below inflation, a housing crises, pension crises, environmental laws being undermined by the government, high employment but at the expense of good jobs (far too reliant on minimum wage work, zero hour contracts and borderline illegal employed/self-employed practices, public sector workers at wits end (and you need them spending to keep the private sector solvent) and never ending cuts that are destroying the fabric of the country and making any real possibility of growth reaching the real economy virtually zero. 

 

We really don't need to add any further to the list by going down the rabbit hole of ignoring climate change and going all out for a dirty and possibly dangerous source of energy. 

As one who's been advocating all electric vehicles for years - while Labour politicians urged us to buy diesels. - you're preaching to the converted to some extent but I don't buy the rest of your doom and gloom nor am I in way way convinced about your pessimism regarding shale gas extraction.

Reading Leo Hickman's Guardian report It sounds far more an argument about levels of consumption than any doubt that shale gas would potentially reduce emissions particularly in places like China which is heavily reliant on coal and already seem mightily interested in our shale gas potential.

The US is already exporting lots of it to various parts of the world.  Are you suggesting we couldn't do the same, until the clean energy we've all long been waiting for, finally becomes fact rather than theory?   

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Thracian said:

As one who's been advocating all electric vehicles for years - while Labour politicians urged us to buy diesels. - you're preaching to the converted to some extent but I don't buy the rest of your doom and gloom nor am I in way way convinced about your pessimism regarding shale gas extraction.

Reading Leo Hickman's Guardian report It sounds far more an argument about levels of consumption than any doubt that shale gas would potentially reduce emissions particularly in places like China which is heavily reliant on coal and already seem mightily interested in our shale gas potential.

The US is already exporting lots of it to various parts of the world.  Are you suggesting we couldn't do the same, until the clean energy we've all long been waiting for, finally becomes fact rather than theory?   

Clean energy is already fact. This is what is apparently lost on old energy sympathisers. Between solar, wind and tidal there is scope for year round energy without dips in performance. We just need to get on and build. 

 

You seriously believe the Chinese are going to be falling over themselves to buy uk fracked shale gas? You don't think if they wanted shale gas they might find some across the huge nation of china? And to sell in those quantities how much uk rock needs to be fracked and how dangerous will this potentially make water/earthquake risk etc? You're far too willing to make a fast buck and ignore risk.

 

Clean energy is the future, it has to be.

[davieG]

First coal-free day in Britain since Industrial Revolution

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39675418

[Buce]

 

Just posted this in the GE thread, but it's worth putting in here as well:

 

A majority of British voters believe Brexit was the wrong decision, according to a new poll taken 10 days after Theresa May called a snap election. 

The YouGov/Times survey found 43 per cent of voters believe Britain was right to vote to leave the EU. 

However, 45 per cent of the 1,590 surveyed said they thought it was the wrong decision. 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/majority-british-voters-brexit-wrong-decision-yougov-poll-finds-a7704566.html

[Izzy]

11 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Just posted this in the GE thread, but it's worth putting in here as well:

 

A majority of British voters believe Brexit was the wrong decision, according to a new poll taken 10 days after Theresa May called a snap election. 

The YouGov/Times survey found 43 per cent of voters believe Britain was right to vote to leave the EU. 

However, 45 per cent of the 1,590 surveyed said they thought it was the wrong decision. 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/majority-british-voters-brexit-wrong-decision-yougov-poll-finds-a7704566.html

Wow, a whole 2% majority 

 

And the 12% polled who couldn't decide were probably too ashamed to admit that it might actually be the right decision.

 

In which case is would have been a completely different result and headline.

 

And heaven forbid we actually look forward with hope in this country rather than backwards with regret for once...

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Wow, a whole 2% majority 

 

And the 12% polled who couldn't decide were probably too ashamed to admit that it might actually be the right decision.

 

In which case is would have been a completely different result and headline.

 

And heaven forbid we actually look forward with hope in this country rather than backwards with regret for once...

Couldn't you say something similar about the referendum result itself?

It's going to be a disaster and, when it is, those that voted brexit will have some serious grovelling to do.

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Couldn't you say something similar about the referendum result itself?

It's going to be a disaster and, when it is, those that voted brexit will have some serious grovelling to do.

Wow I didn't realise this we better cancel it then.

[Alf Bentley]

That poll is mildly interesting, but no more. Takes things back to roughly the position of the polls just before the Brexit vote.

 

There would have to be a much bigger - and consistent - shift in the polls for it to matter: e.g. if polls were regularly showing 70%+ opposition to Brexit, that might change politicians' calculations.

It'll be interesting to see polls IF negotiations yield little or May ends up doing massive compromises, and if the economy starts to struggle.

 

Could be a frosty atmosphere at the Johnson family table. I knew that Boris' Dad was a Remainer, didn't know about his brother (also an MP) - and now his sister has joined the Lib Dems and been seeking to stand in the election.

Her children have been crying and blaming Uncle Boris for "stealing their futures": http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39739546

 

Interesting to speculate, though, what the referendum result would have been if Boris had supported Remain. Who would have fronted the official Leave campaign? Gove? Fox? IDS?? Gisela Stuart? (David Davis had a low profile, as I recall)

None of them exactly charismatic. Would Remain have won without Boris - and what may very well have been a political stance motivated by personal career considerations....

[Buce]

31 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Wow, a whole 2% majority 

 

And the 12% polled who couldn't decide were probably too ashamed to admit that it might actually be the right decision.

 

In which case is would have been a completely different result and headline.

 

And heaven forbid we actually look forward with hope in this country rather than backwards with regret for once...

 

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. 

[Innovindil]

29 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Couldn't you say something similar about the referendum result itself?

It's going to be a disaster and, when it is, those that voted brexit will have some serious grovelling to do.

I'd say the referendum result itself was decided by more than 1600 people 

[davieG]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. 

This topic is so full of negativity I'll have to stop coming in here as I may end up shooting myself 

[Facecloth]

35 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Wow, a whole 2% majority 

 

And the 12% polled who couldn't decide were probably too ashamed to admit that it might actually be the right decision.

 

In which case is would have been a completely different result and headline.

 

And heaven forbid we actually look forward with hope in this country rather than backwards with regret for once...

Wasn't this whole Brexit campaign built on looking back with regret? 

[Innovindil]

16 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Wasn't this whole Brexit campaign built on looking back with regret? 

You've been reading too much from our resident extremists. Not every out voter remembers the first colour TV or war rations. 

[Buce]

49 minutes ago, davieG said:

This topic is so full of negativity I'll have to stop coming in here as I may end up shooting myself 

 

So, what are you saying? You only want us to post positive news stories regarding Brexit?

 

Many of see nothing positive about it.

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Wow, a whole 2% majority 

 

And the 12% polled who couldn't decide were probably too ashamed to admit that it might actually be the right decision.

 

In which case is would have been a completely different result and headline.

 

And heaven forbid we actually look forward with hope in this country rather than backwards with regret for once...

 

Probably? Do you have anything other than personal bias to back that statement?

 

Is it not equally possible that they may be ashamed to admit that they were taken in by the lies and spin (£350 million on the NHS; millions of Turks on the way), and that it was the wrong decision?

 

And a whole 2% majority is all it took to initiate this fvcking mess in the first place.

[davieG]

Just now, Buce said:

 

So, what are you saying? You only want us to post positive news stories regarding Brexit?

 

Many of see nothing positive about it.

Well considering a lot of the negativity is just people being negative without any foundation and most of the 'news' about Brexit  is just fear based speculation derived from the fears of individuals. Considering nothing has been agreed and most economic negatives are born on the back of fear and speculation with little or no foundation I really don't see why people are getting overly depressive about it or for that matter overly positive.

All the things that are happening economically have been happening forever and certainly during our membership of the EU there's nothing new in the way this country goes from boom to bust and back again.

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, davieG said:

Well considering a lot of the negativity is just people being negative without any foundation and most of the 'news' about Brexit  is just fear based speculation derived from the fears of individuals. Considering nothing has been agreed and most economic negatives are born on the back of fear and speculation with little or no foundation I really don't see why people are getting overly depressive about it or for that matter overly positive.

All the things that are happening economically have been happening forever and certainly during our membership of the EU there's nothing new in the way this country goes from boom to bust and back again.

 

You might as well close the thread then.

 

In fact, why not close the whole forum, because it is all largely based on speculation and subjective opinion.

[davieG]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

You might as well close the thread then.

 

In fact, why not close the whole forum, because it is all largely based on speculation and subjective opinion.

We could always discuss what we'd like to actually happen as a result of Brexit how we could improve things, what we'd like to see includedd in any agreement rather than posting speculation and fear driven reports beloved by the media who know it will generate more hits.

 

Not forgetting that my original post was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek.I'm not really  going to end up shooting myself based on what's posted on this forum as I've had plenty of opportunities to do that over the LCFC football forum and managed to survive it. 

[Buce]

Just now, davieG said:

We could always discuss what we'd like to actually happen as a result of Brexit how we could improve things, what we'd like to see includedd in any agreement rather than posting speculation and fear driven reports beloved by the media who know it will generate more hits.

 

That's more like it.

 

Would you like to start us off?

 

Just now, davieG said:

 

Not forgetting that my original post was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek.I'm not really  going to end up shooting myself based on what's posted on this forum as I've had plenty of opportunities to do that over the LCFC football forum and managed to survive it. 

 

 

Yeah, being a City fan has that effect.

 

If you can survive that, you can survive anything.

[davieG]

Just now, Buce said:

 

That's more like it.

 

Would you like to start us off?

 

 

 

Yeah, being a City fan has that effect.

 

If you can survive that, you can survive anything.

I really hope that we get back control of our fishing waters and revive the fishing industry albeit with sufficient realistic controls to prevent depleting stocks.

 

I'd like to see a massive investment in 'real' training especially in science, engineering, medicine etc so that we can develop an economy that isn't so reliable on the finance industry, not that we couldn't have done that in the EU but the governments were spoilt by this thriving part of our economy which I admit could now reduce. Degrees that are related to these should be free to those with the right qualifications for starters, companies could be given generous tax breaks for sponsoring students and universities offering those types of courses.

There's so many things we could be doing to improve the short and long term welfare of this country.

[Buce]

12 minutes ago, davieG said:

I really hope that we get back control of our fishing waters and revive the fishing industry albeit with sufficient realistic controls to prevent depleting stocks.

 

Agreed.

 

However, I'm not sure how a tit for tat response would affect us. How much of our fishing takes place in EU nations' waters?

 

 

Quote

 

I'd like to see a massive investment in 'real' training especially in science, engineering, medicine etc so that we can develop an economy that isn't so reliable on the finance industry, not that we couldn't have done that in the EU but the governments were spoilt by this thriving part of our economy which I admit could now reduce

 

No argument here, either, but as you said, it could have been done as an EU member.

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

. Degrees that are related to these should be free to those with the right qualifications for starters, companies could be given generous tax breaks for sponsoring students and universities offering those types of courses.

There's so many things we could be doing to improve the short and long term welfare of this country.

 

You're starting to sound like a Labour supporter now, Davey.  

 

It's amazing how many people agree with Labour policies when they look beyond Corbyn and tribal politics.

[Nick]

On 25/04/2017 at 02:51, Thracian said:

As one who's been advocating all electric vehicles for years - while Labour politicians urged us to buy diesels. - you're preaching to the converted to some extent but I don't buy the rest of your doom and gloom nor am I in way way convinced about your pessimism regarding shale gas extraction.

Reading Leo Hickman's Guardian report It sounds far more an argument about levels of consumption than any doubt that shale gas would potentially reduce emissions particularly in places like China which is heavily reliant on coal and already seem mightily interested in our shale gas potential.

The US is already exporting lots of it to various parts of the world.  Are you suggesting we couldn't do the same, until the clean energy we've all long been waiting for, finally becomes fact rather than theory?   

We were told that diesel cars were better for the environment since the mid eighties- don't make it about Labour you weirdo.

[Buce]

16 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

We were told that diesel cars were better for the environment since the mid eighties- don't make it about Labour you weirdo.

 

Be fair, Swan.

 

He obviously couldn't find a way to blame it on the immigrants.

[Buce]

@davieG

 

Here are some interesting facts about UK fishing, and how leaving the EU might not benefit us:

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-pinching-our-fish/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/28/british-fishermen-warned-brexit-will-not-mean-greater-catches