Brexit Discussion Thread.

[yorkie1999]

3 hours ago, toddybad said:

Couldn't you say something similar about the referendum result itself?

It's going to be a disaster and, when it is, those that voted brexit will have some serious grovelling to do.

Don't you think it would be wiser for the people who voted remain to try to make it work, after all it was a democratic vote that decided it. Blame gets us no where, especially apportioning blame before anything is set in stone, and should be confined to the school play ground where it belongs.

[Izzy]

16 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Don't you think it would be wiser for the people who voted remain to try to make it work, after all it was a democratic vote that decided it. Blame gets us no where, especially apportioning blame before anything is set in stone, and should be confined to the school play ground where it belongs.

Absolutely.

 

I voted remain because I was still undecided right up until I got to the ballot box. The campaign confused the hell out of me so I bottled it in the end and decided to vote for the status quo.

 

But what's done is done, and I see no point in looking backwards now. Surely it's about time we all pulled together to make it work and get the best deal we can. 

[Izzy]

3 hours ago, Buce said:

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. 

Nothing personal mate (unlike you and my jokes )

 

3 hours ago, Facecloth said:

Wasn't this whole Brexit campaign built on looking back with regret? 

I don't know. If you say so!! 

 

2 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Probably? Do you have anything other than personal bias to back that statement?

 

Is it not equally possible that they may be ashamed to admit that they were taken in by the lies and spin (£350 million on the NHS; millions of Turks on the way), and that it was the wrong decision?

 

And a whole 2% majority is all it took to initiate this fvcking mess in the first place.

No. Just personal bias, that's all 

[Buce]

13 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Nothing personal mate (unlike you and my jokes )

 

 

Sorry, mate.

 

I had no idea you were so insecure.

[davieG]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

Agreed.

 

However, I'm not sure how a tit for tat response would affect us. How much of our fishing takes place in EU nations' waters?

 

 

 

No argument here, either, but as you said, it could have been done as an EU member.

 

 

 

You're starting to sound like a Labour supporter now, Davey.  

 

It's amazing how many people agree with Labour policies when they look beyond Corbyn and tribal politics.

I have no alignment to any political party they all, well most have some things I agree with. More often than not I usually, where I can vote for an independent candidate if they have some of those same policies.

[Izzy]

10 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Sorry, mate.

 

I had no idea you were so insecure.

I'm very fragile at the moment Buce. Any more cutting comments from you my friend and it could well tip me over the edge.

You big, ugly, sarcastic MUTHER FVCKER!!!

[davieG]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

@davieG

 

Here are some interesting facts about UK fishing, and how leaving the EU might not benefit us:

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-pinching-our-fish/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/28/british-fishermen-warned-brexit-will-not-mean-greater-catches

Yes I've seen those before, I guess it just shows there are so many unknowns and that's what a lot of people are afraid of. Being afraid of political change is nothing new it occurs every time there is a change of government and we're still all here surviving and although everything is not perfect for everyone generally people's living standards have increased significantly and I'm sure ill continue to after Brexit they'll inevitably be a few bumps on the road but Mr Soulsby has prepared us all for that.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

Don't you think it would be wiser for the people who voted remain to try to make it work, after all it was a democratic vote that decided it. Blame gets us no where, especially apportioning blame before anything is set in stone, and should be confined to the school play ground where it belongs.

We will be working to this end but it doesn't change the fact that if it is as bad as some fear people will have to accept that almost half the country will look at the leave voters and question why they ignored all the evidence to lump in with johnson, gove and farage. 

[The Doctor]

2 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

Don't you think it would be wiser for the people who voted remain to try to make it work, after all it was a democratic vote that decided it. Blame gets us no where, especially apportioning blame before anything is set in stone, and should be confined to the school play ground where it belongs.

The way the eurosceptics accepted the democratic vote to be part of the EEC in the seventies and didn't spend 40 years blaming Europe for their own failings?

[Kopfkino]

58 minutes ago, toddybad said:

We will be working to this end but it doesn't change the fact that if it is as bad as some fear people will have to accept that almost half the country will look at the leave voters and question why they ignored all the evidence to lump in with johnson, gove and farage. 

 

It doesn't seem like you are considering you've already proclaimed it a disaster, doesn't suggest you're going to help try to make it work. Already giddy with excitement at being able to point the finger.

 

Also, what evidence was ignored? What evidence was there?

[The Guvnor]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

We will be working to this end but it doesn't change the fact that if it is as bad as some fear people will have to accept that almost half the country will look at the leave voters and question why they ignored all the evidence to lump in with johnson, gove and farage. 

Supposition

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

Don't you think it would be wiser for the people who voted remain to try to make it work, after all it was a democratic vote that decided it. Blame gets us no where, especially apportioning blame before anything is set in stone, and should be confined to the school play ground where it belongs.

4

Nope.

 

This is the Leavers decision, so it's their work to handle henceforth. With all the rewards for success and blame for failure that this entails.

 

5 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

 

It doesn't seem like you are considering you've already proclaimed it a disaster, doesn't suggest you're going to help try to make it work. Already giddy with excitement at being able to point the finger.

 

Also, what evidence was ignored? What evidence was there?

 

As above, the Remainers have zero obligation to help with what they consider to be the wrong choice. If the Leavers really think it can work, they can get it done by themselves and throw it back in the faces of the Remainers if/when it goes well.

[Izzy]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Nope.

 

This is the Leavers decision, so it's their work to handle henceforth. With all the rewards for success and blame for failure that this entails.

 

As above, the Remainers have zero obligation to help with what they consider to be the wrong choice. If the Leavers really think it can work, they can get it done by themselves and throw it back in the faces of the Remainers if/when it goes well.

Sorry, but I don't understand this viewpoint. It smacks of chucking your toys out of the pram to me...

 

Are you suggesting that remainers just sit back, do fvck all and hope it all goes tits up just so they can say "I told you so?"

 

Why does this have to be about certain groups claiming success or failure? And what's the benefit of a grown adult 'throwing it back in the face' of another?

 

Surely it's about everyone accepting the decision and now working together as a collective to do the best for the country isn't it?

 

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face 

 

[Jon the Hat]

15 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Nope.

 

This is the Leavers decision, so it's their work to handle henceforth. With all the rewards for success and blame for failure that this entails.

 

As above, the Remainers have zero obligation to help with what they consider to be the wrong choice. If the Leavers really think it can work, they can get it done by themselves and throw it back in the faces of the Remainers if/when it goes well.

Thank goodness the Government doesn't think like you.  Twat.

[Guest MattP]

25 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Nope.

 

This is the Leavers decision, so it's their work to handle henceforth. With all the rewards for success and blame for failure that this entails.

 

As above, the Remainers have zero obligation to help with what they consider to be the wrong choice. If the Leavers really think it can work, they can get it done by themselves and throw it back in the faces of the Remainers if/when it goes well.

Is this a serious post?

 

Maybe if Corbyn wins every person who didn't vote for him should just refuse to do anything and pay no tax. I didn't want him, him and his people's jobs to make it work. 

 

Thank God most people don't think like you.

[leicsmac]

19 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Sorry, but I don't understand this viewpoint. It smacks of chucking your toys out of the pram to me...

 

Are you suggesting that remainers just sit back, do fvck all and hope it all goes tits up just so they can say "I told you so?"

 

Why does this have to be about certain groups claiming success or failure? And what's the benefit of a grown adult 'throwing it back in the face' of another?

 

Surely it's about everyone accepting the decision and now working together as a collective to do the best for the country isn't it?

 

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face 

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Thank goodness the Government doesn't think like you.  Twat.

 

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Is this a serious post?

 

Maybe if Corbyn wins every person who didn't vote for him should just refuse to do anything and pay no tax. I didn't want him, him and his people's jobs to make it work. 

 

Thank God most people don't think like you.

 

Sorry guys, I saw the general drift of the conversation and decided to engage in a little Friday morning . Was it too Poe's Law? I probably shouldn't have done it - it's juvenile. But I'm a little glad it was convincing.

 

FWIW I think that now the decision has been made there does need to be collaborative effort as no one short of a complete nutter wants the UK to stumble and fall and division may well help that happen, but at the same time there are going to be people who think in the same way as I posted for real and their help should not be expected and cannot be relied upon, and chastising them isn't going to get them to help out either.

[Alf Bentley]

3 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

Don't you think it would be wiser for the people who voted remain to try to make it work, after all it was a democratic vote that decided it. Blame gets us no where, especially apportioning blame before anything is set in stone, and should be confined to the school play ground where it belongs.

 

3 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Absolutely.

 

I voted remain because I was still undecided right up until I got to the ballot box. The campaign confused the hell out of me so I bottled it in the end and decided to vote for the status quo.

 

But what's done is done, and I see no point in looking backwards now. Surely it's about time we all pulled together to make it work and get the best deal we can. 

 

I completely agree with these sentiments. Unless there's some massive, unexpected turnaround within the next 2 years, Brexit will happen and we need to adapt to that.

 

Two problems with that stance, though:

1) In practice, most Remain voters (& most Leave voters) will be able to do very little to make Brexit work; we'll just have to adapt to whatever is negotiated. The only people who can make Brexit work are the UK and EU politicians - and other senior people in business and public institutions, though even they will mainly be adapting to what is negotiated so as to make it work in the long term.

2) There are many different ideas about what kind of Brexit can or should be negotiated: in or out of single market/customs union; with some, all or none of EU employment/environmental regulations; with no free movement but high immigration - or very low immigration; paying no money, a little money or a lot of money to EU; trade deals with EU & non-EU countries that may or may not materialise on terms we haven't a clue about etc.

 

I agree that Remain supporters shouldn't be sulking or throwing their toys out of the pram. There should be no attempt to block Brexit unless there's a massive sea-change in public opinion (which hasn't happen yet, and probably won't happen).

But we're perfectly entitled to argue for forms of Brexit different from those now loosely advocated by Theresa May (herself a Remainer).

 

Most of us can do little except try to have a little influence over priorities - and then adapt to whatever is negotiated. Meanwhile, if the polls are to be believed (which they are, broadly), we're about to hand massive power to one party and one PM to negotiate whatever sort of Brexit it feels like, without a proper vote by our elected representatives in parliament (just "take it, or leave it - and drive off a cliff").

 

That party/PM seems intent on a particular, extreme form of Brexit....but that may just be PR. In reality, it seems as if May will have to make major concessions to get anything she wants: the EU may not ultimately insist on £50bn or whatever, but they probably will insist on a large payment for past commitments. Will May pay up or risk having the EU refuse to negotiate a new trade deal, so that British firms end up competing for business on highly disadvantageous terms?

 

Hard Brexit fans may like the sound of all that. But are you sure what she'll do? Maybe, if she gets her landslide, she'll use her five years of complete power to make major concessions on immigration and EU payments so as to remain in the single market? 

 

We don't know what these negotiations will bring. We don't really know what May wants them to bring.....yet we're being asked to hand her five years of absolute power to do what she wants on behalf of the nation...and she is clearly disinclined to give us more than a very broad (and possibly dishonest) idea of what she intends to negotiate, even assuming that it can be negotiated. Ain't British parliamentary democracy grand?!

[Webbo]

Quote

 

EU trade commissioner says bloc will do post-Brexit free trade deal with UK 'for sure'

 

The European Union will strike a free trade deal with the United Kingdom after Brexit “for sure”, the bloc's trade commissioner has said in a major boost for Theresa May.

Mrs May has previously said she would be willing to walk away from Brexit negotiations without securing a deal if Brussels sought to punish the UK by imposing unfair trade tariffs.

But Cecilia Malmstrom, the EU Commissioner for Trade, has now said the bloc will reach a free trade agreement with the UK after its divorce from Brussels.

 

The statement represents a major victory for Mrs May who has said that the offer of an unfavourable trade deal with the EU would prompt her to quit talks.

She has insisted that “no deal for Britain is better than a bad deal”.

 

The Prime Minister’s tough negotiating stance was not welcomed by Brussels with European leaders insisting they would not be “intimidated” by the threat to walk away from negotiations.

 

Ms Malmstrom told a conference in Copenhagen on Thursday: "It's uncharted territory but I'm sure we will solve it. We will have a free trade agreement, that is for sure."

When asked again whether she was certain, Ms Malmstrom said: "Of course".

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/27/eu-trade-commissioner-says-bloc-will-do-post-brexit-free-trade/

[Strokes]

45 minutes ago, Webbo said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/27/eu-trade-commissioner-says-bloc-will-do-post-brexit-free-trade/

Oh a bit of good news, I doubt it will stop the whining though.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, KingGTF said:

 

It doesn't seem like you are considering you've already proclaimed it a disaster, doesn't suggest you're going to help try to make it work. Already giddy with excitement at being able to point the finger.

 

Also, what evidence was ignored? What evidence was there?

What exactly will you be doing to directly influence the outcome? We'll all be working in the same jobs (we hope). The outcome won't be decided by us.

 

The evidence was 40 years of economic growth, world's biggest financial centre (for all its sins), peace in Europe (historically something of an oddity) and stability. Addedto that the predictions of every expert and serious organisation known to man. Further evidence is offered by the number of times the UK government has tried to breach EU laws which would harm its own population (in relation to climate change and pollution, for example- the only reason Britain has clean beaches today is because the EU took Britain to court over the issue 20+ years ago when our waters were filled with excrement) and hasn't been allowed. This 'freedom' from the EU courts will mean that the Tory party is able to do whatever it wants to help the rich and screw the poor. 

 

On the other side, Gove, Boris, Farage and the Daily Mail. 

 

 

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

What exactly will you be doing to directly influence the outcome? We'll all be working in the same jobs (we hope). The outcome won't be decided by us.

 

The evidence was 40 years of economic growth, world's biggest financial centre (for all its sins), peace in Europe (historically something of an oddity) and stability. Addedto that the predictions of every expert and serious organisation known to man. Further evidence is offered by the number of times the UK government has tried to breach EU laws which would harm its own population (in relation to climate change and pollution, for example- the only reason Britain has clean beaches today is because the EU took Britain to court over the issue 20+ years ago when our waters were filled with excrement) and hasn't been allowed. This 'freedom' from the EU courts will mean that the Tory party is able to do whatever it wants to help the rich and screw the poor. 

 

On the other side, Gove, Boris, Farage and the Daily Mail. 

 

 

 

[Guest]

and the not such good news:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/apr/28/tories-imperial-vision-post-brexit-trade-deal-disruptive-deluded

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/28/eu-leaders-to-insist-uk-pays-its-brexit-bills-as-precursor-to-trade-talks

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/28/brexit-european-health-insurance-card-ehic-healthcare-europe-uk

[Webbo]

5 minutes ago, toddybad said:

and the not such good news:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/apr/28/tories-imperial-vision-post-brexit-trade-deal-disruptive-deluded

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/28/eu-leaders-to-insist-uk-pays-its-brexit-bills-as-precursor-to-trade-talks

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/28/brexit-european-health-insurance-card-ehic-healthcare-europe-uk

You criticise the Mail and then quote the Guardian?

[The Doctor]

4 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Sorry, but I don't understand this viewpoint. It smacks of chucking your toys out of the pram to me...

 

Are you suggesting that remainers just sit back, do fvck all and hope it all goes tits up just so they can say "I told you so?"

 

Why does this have to be about certain groups claiming success or failure? And what's the benefit of a grown adult 'throwing it back in the face' of another?

 

Surely it's about everyone accepting the decision and now working together as a collective to do the best for the country isn't it?

 

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face 

 

Mac may have been trolling, but I'd defend what he said. To me it is dishonest to now say it will be great because the majority of voters want it (For one it's a logical fallacy - argument ad populum), when it was self-evidently a bad idea 12 months ago, and there's been no sign of that changing. 

 

I accept the result happened, doesn't mean I have to agree with the verdict - we're leaving, fine, but it's dishonest to yourself to abandon your views to better fit in.

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/27/eu-trade-commissioner-says-bloc-will-do-post-brexit-free-trade/

 

25 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Oh a bit of good news, I doubt it will stop the whining though.

 

Why should we accept this as fact when numerous EU politicians have said the opposite?

 

Because it suits your narrative?