Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Jon the Hat]

This has got to be distraction technique.  There is no way anyone actually thinks Gibraltar is any kind of issue here.  As if Spain could stand up to the might of the British army! 

[Innovindil]

31 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

This has got to be distraction technique.  There is no way anyone actually thinks Gibraltar is any kind of issue here.  As if Spain could stand up to the might of the British army! 

Spain couldn't stand up to 3 frenchies with a spud gun tbf. 

[Buce]

52 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

This has got to be distraction technique.  There is no way anyone actually thinks Gibraltar is any kind of issue here.  As if Spain could stand up to the might of the British army! 

 

A joke, I'm sure, but the really ironic thing is that they wouldn't have to.

 

Assuming the EU has a mutual defence policy, we'd be fighting against most of Europe.

[inckley fox]

I'm not sure why this is being talked up so much. I've been in Spain for the past few weeks and it's noticeable that the rhetoric from their politicians has been very calm, and - until today, at least - it's been very hard to see any sign of conflict in their press. For instance, you couldn't find any mention of Gibraltar on the El Pais website yesterday, and even the more Conservative El Mundo (which tends to talk up the Gibraltar issue more) had it as a minor item. Their Foreign Minister was interviewed yesterday and said he preferred the idea of a 'Soft Brexit' and very quick agreements in place with Spain to protect workers from the respective countries. Hardly anyone was mentioning Gibraltar at all. Indeed, over time I've noticed that it's very rare that the Spanish and the British are both talking about Gibraltar at the same time.

 

Even today, the rhetoric is quite calming by Spanish politicians ('we don't understand why the British are getting so heated'), and there's a sense of confusion as to why people like Howard, Tebbit and the English press have talked this up so much, and so aggressively. If you look far enough down the articles in our press, there tends to be an appendix which says 'the Spanish haven't actually pushed for sovereignty to form a part of the negotiations', simply because the appetite isn't there right now for this sort of dispute. It seems to me that it's a very conscious decision on the part of some of our Conservatives to make this more of an issue than it is and (knowing how politicians can encourage media to focus on one story over another) I have to wonder what it is we're distracting attention from.

 

Either that, or this is our negotiating technique. And if it is, it probably shouldn't be.

[Buce]

4 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

I'm not sure why this is being talked up so much. I've been in Spain for the past few weeks and it's noticeable that the rhetoric from their politicians has been very calm, and - until today, at least - it's been very hard to see any sign of conflict in their press. For instance, you couldn't find any mention of Gibraltar on the El Pais website yesterday, and even the more Conservative El Mundo (which tends to talk up the Gibraltar issue more) had it as a minor item. Their Foreign Minister was interviewed yesterday and said he preferred the idea of a 'Soft Brexit' and very quick agreements in place with Spain to protect workers from the respective countries. Hardly anyone was mentioning Gibraltar at all. Indeed, over time I've noticed that it's very rare that the Spanish and the British are both talking about Gibraltar at the same time.

 

Even today, the rhetoric is quite calming by Spanish politicians ('we don't understand why the British are getting so heated'), and there's a sense of confusion as to why people like Howard, Tebbit and the English press have talked this up so much, and so aggressively. If you look far enough down the articles in our press, there tends to be an appendix which says 'the Spanish haven't actually pushed for sovereignty to form a part of the negotiations', simply because the appetite isn't there right now for this sort of dispute. It seems to me that it's a very conscious decision on the part of some of our Conservatives to make this more of an issue than it is and (knowing how politicians can encourage media to focus on one story over another) I have to wonder what it is we're distracting attention from.

 

Either that, or this is our negotiating technique. And if it is, it probably shouldn't be.

 

This, probably:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/welfare-shakeup-will-push-a-quarter-of-a-million-children-into-poverty

[Innovindil]

2 hours ago, Buce said:

 

This, probably:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/welfare-shakeup-will-push-a-quarter-of-a-million-children-into-poverty

Horribly I actually agree to parts of these cuts, people shouldn't be able to just churn kids out for a payrise. The amount of "single mums" with plenty of kids that have no way of realistically providing for them is ridiculous. But the trouble with trying to deal with that problem is mentioned in the article, it punishes those that have kids while being able to financially support them but for one reason or another no longer can. 

 

A tricky situation no doubt, the idea is fine in theory but the amount of people who don't intentionally fiddle the system that will get hurt is unacceptable. 

[lgfualol]

Imagine going to war with Spain over that little shit rock

[Alf Bentley]

17 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

Imagine going to war with Spain over that little shit rock

 

About 10 times more people in Gibraltar than in the Falkland Islands.....By population, Gibraltar equates to Coalville, whereas the Falklands equates to Newbold Verdon.

 

Admittedly, there's probably a lot more chance of finding oil in territorial waters off the Falklands than off Gibraltar.

But Gibraltar has lots of money in low-tax offshore bank accounts, it has a major port, strategically-located defence facilities......and monkeys, not sheep.

 

Admittedly, it is populated 96% by Remoaners, still....send the gunboats!  

[Facecloth]

12 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

About 10 times more people in Gibraltar than in the Falkland Islands.....By population, Gibraltar equates to Coalville, whereas the Falklands equates to Newbold Verdon.

 

Admittedly, there's probably a lot more chance of finding oil in territorial waters off the Falklands than off Gibraltar.

But Gibraltar has lots of money in low-tax offshore bank accounts, it has a major port, strategically-located defence facilities......and monkeys, not sheep.

 

Admittedly, it is populated 96% by Remoaners, still....send the gunboats!  

Can't we just give Coalville to Spain instead, and hope they don't notice?

[Sharpe's Fox]

25 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Can't we just give Coalville to Spain instead, and hope they don't notice?

But where would I do my Lidl shop?

[Buce]

34 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Can't we just give Coalville to Spain instead, and hope they don't notice?

 

Surely the weather would give it away..?

[Facecloth]

25 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Surely the weather would give it away..?

True, but they might confuse the locals with the monkeys.

[Thracian]

5 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Spain couldn't stand up to 3 frenchies with a spud gun tbf. 

I did warn in here that we'll need to muscle up. I just didn't know it'd be so soon and over Gibraltar.  

 

Seems like Spain might change its mind about admitting Scotland into the EU too.

 

I guessed it would get like this and that the EU would seek to make an example of us. 

 

It shows their real colours and the determination of Brussels to more rigidly control the increasingly beholden states of Europe by bullying us and highlighting the consequences. 

 

 

 

 

 

     

 

 

 

  

[The Doctor]

6 hours ago, Buce said:

 

A joke, I'm sure, but the really ironic thing is that they wouldn't have to.

 

Assuming the EU has a mutual defence policy, we'd be fighting against most of Europe.

And, assuming that Spain invade then they're the aggressors and NATO would be on britains side. 

[Buce]

7 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

And, assuming that Spain invade then they're the aggressors and NATO would be on britains side. 

 

And since most are members of both..

[BoyJones]

Let Spain have Scotland; we need to keep Gibraltar, much more valuable and they don't constantly try undermine us. 

[Charl91]

4 hours ago, Facecloth said:

Can't we just give Coalville to Spain instead, and hope they don't notice?

 

I wouldn't even wish that on the Spanish.

[Foxxed]

It's hilarious our bargaining chips so have been: "we'll turn ourselves into a tax haven!" and then later "we'll not help you find criminals!"

 

It's almost like we're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

Meanwhile, back home, we're harping on about the colour of our passports. Amazing.

 

And also theorising about a war with Spain over an area whose population voted remain nearly entirely.

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, Foxxed said:

It's hilarious our bargaining chips so have been: "we'll turn ourselves into a tax haven!" and then later "we'll not help you find criminals!"

 

It's almost like we're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

Meanwhile, back home, we're harping on about the colour of our passports. Amazing.

 

And also theorising about a war with Spain over an area whose population voted remain nearly entirely.

Yes let's ignore the facts and bitch at the stupid media stories.

[bovril]

I hope our new passports, as well as being blue, are printed in passive-aggressive comic sans. That would be the most British passport ever.

"Would you mind in the future letting this person into your country a little faster? Also, we don't want to come into work in the morning confronted with your dirty mugs in the sink. Thanks. Liz. :)"

[Foxxed]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Yes let's ignore the facts and bitch at the stupid media stories.

Sorry, what are these facts you're referring to?

 

The threat of a tax haven was issued by May months and months ago

 

And we have threatened less cooperation on security with EU member states.

 

And the how our national newspapers report the news is very noteworthy: it is a reflection of country, of the newspaper reading public.

 

There have been plenty of newspaper column inches getting exciting about a change of passport colour.

 

Let's leave aside the fanatic excitement of perhaps returning to the Imperial measurement system.
 

The Telegraph and others has been theorising about how we'd fair in a war with Spain over Gibraltar.

 

These are the debates our credible national newspapers are having because of our current political situation.

[Foxxed]

For me, there are two issues here: the Gibraltar war nonsense and Spain's volt-face towards Scotland's EU membership.

 

I doubt there will be war with Spain. But our newspapers are considering how we would fare. We are considering how we would fare in a war with what we would like to say is an ally. When you make these considerations something very slight but dangerous happens.

 

Neither party really considers war. Both parties do take stock of their capacity for war. Isn't it careless not to? And suddenly the slight unreal possibility is there. The question which hasn't been asked in decades is suddenly in the back of the mind.

 

This minuscule edging towards the possibility is dangerous in a diplomatically toxic atmosphere. More and more countries quietly consider this. And countries become more suspicious of each other.

 

But this is only a possibility. A slim one. A very slim one. And nothing would really come from this at least not anytime soon. But I find how this has altered Spain's approach to Scotland fascinating.

 

Spain has always said it would block Scotland's membership of the EU. They would block it because it threatens to increase separatism in their own country: Catalonia. Spain is now, however, essentially giving a reluctant nod to Catalonia to help Scotland leave the UK and enter the EU.

 

This is an astonishing step. It's the diplomatic equivalent of offering a hand to Scotland's fight to leave the UK and enter the EU: something never offered before. And this is far more interesting than the jingoistic nonsense we are now spraying.

[davieG]

We should rename this topic the Transfer Window.

[The Doctor]

6 hours ago, Foxxed said:

Spain has always said it would block Scotland's membership of the EU. They would block it because it threatens to increase separatism in their own country: Catalonia. Spain is now, however, essentially giving a reluctant nod to Catalonia to help Scotland leave the UK and enter the EU.

 

This is an astonishing step. It's the diplomatic equivalent of offering a hand to Scotland's fight to leave the UK and enter the EU: something never offered before. And this is far more interesting than the jingoistic nonsense we are now spraying.

No they aren't. They've said they wouldn't veto if Scotland left constitutionally. As Catalonia will never be granted an independence referendum, they can't leave Spain constitutionally so Scotland provides no precedence.

[Jon the Hat]

Irrelevant anyway, Scotland is way off a positive leave decision.