Brexit Discussion Thread.

[sphericalfox]

11 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I'd just pick derby and think about next season.

Funny, they're getting rid of their Chief Executive, probs due incompetence and inability to progress the club. Strong and stable in the Championship though.

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, Emilio Lestavez said:

I don't really want any Brexit but the very least I'd like to see is one that allowed some access to the single market. Whether tariffs or freedom of movement are the concessions that would be fine provided we don't end up significantly worse off as country through trade costs, labour, etc. etc. 

 

I haven't met anybody who voted remain who thinks that stopping it is an option, or indeed genuinely wants that but I don't think a single party with specific interests should be allowed to dictate the terms to which Brexit happens. It's a national, cross party issue and has lasting implications for the electorate of whichever denomination and as such I believe they should have a say in the terms of what they want from the process.

Given North Korea has access to the single market I don't think there is any doubt we'll at least have "some" access to it.

 

What access we get and what we have to pay for it is going to be the crux of the negotiation.

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Everyone's entitled to their opinion but it's the standard of the debate that gets on people's nerves. Our side has consistency been misrepresented ,we're all racist thugs, then we're all voting for blue passports a return to empire etc.

 

Then there's the repeated predictions of doom, every economic indicator is highlighted, whether good or bad, to say I told you so. Everything the govt says is deluded, everything the EU say is proof we're going to get a bad deal.

 

So much of the debate is hysterical nonsense.

 

I haven't seen anyone saying that, but you only have to look at the rhetoric from some Leavers on here, to see that there is a proportion who are racist Little Englanders. Extrapolate that to the whole electorate and there goes your tiny majority. The fact is, whether you like it or not, the likes of DT and Thracian tipped the balance in favour of leaving. Take the racists and the Little Englanders out of the equation and you have a different result.

[Vacamion]

12 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Everyone's entitled to their opinion but it's the standard of the debate that gets on people's nerves. Our side has consistency been misrepresented ,we're all racist thugs, then we're all voting for blue passports a return to empire etc.

 

Then there's the repeated predictions of doom, every economic indicator is highlighted, whether good or bad, to say I told you so. Everything the govt says is deluded, everything the EU say is proof we're going to get a bad deal.

 

So much of the debate is hysterical nonsense.

 

The talk about blue passports, Empire 2.0 didn't come from the remain side.

 

Likewise, I don't recall a spike in xenophobia and hate crime in the years prior to the Brexit referendum, but there has been one since.  

 

It's not hysterical to point out that your government is about to drive you off a cliff.

 

Sheesh.  Brexiteers just want us to shut up and enjoy the decline.

 

Not gonna happen.

 

 

 

 

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

I haven't seen anyone saying that, but you only have to look at the rhetoric from some Leavers on here, to see that there is a proportion who are racist Little Englanders. Extrapolate that to the whole electorate and there goes your tiny majority. The fact is, whether you like it or not, the likes of DT and Thracian tipped the balance in favour of leaving. Take the racists and the Little Englanders out of the equation and you have a different result.

So only people with the correct opinions should be allowed to vote?

[Vacamion]

 

 

By the way, the polarisation in this thread is what happens when you have yes/no referenda.  Politics is then dominated by the  referendum issue. All else is buried underneath which side of the referendum you were on.

 

Take it from an inhabitant of Scotland, both sides will be bitterly disagreeing about this for ever.

 

 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

So only people with the correct opinions should be allowed to vote?

 

I didn't say that.

 

But I resent the fact that a relative handful of racists and Little Englanders have decided what the future of this country is going to be.

[Webbo]

Just now, Buce said:

 

I didn't say that.

 

But I resent the fact that a relative handful of racists and Little Englanders have decided what the future of this country is going to be.

Europe is  full of nationalist/racist parties, if Le Pen wins in France she'd have a say in what the future of our country is going to be and we wouldn't be able to vote against them.

[Guest MattP]

15 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I haven't seen anyone saying that, but you only have to look at the rhetoric from some Leavers on here, to see that there is a proportion who are racist Little Englanders. Extrapolate that to the whole electorate and there goes your tiny majority. The fact is, whether you like it or not, the likes of DT and Thracian tipped the balance in favour of leaving. Take the racists and the Little Englanders out of the equation and you have a different result.

I don't want the future of my country being decided by subservient, safe space adoring, free speech stopping, gender denying cucks either but that's democracy.

 

The amount of actual racists in the country is tiny, the BNP got nothing at the last election, certainly nowhere near the 1.4 million you would have needed to see the refernedum go the other way.

 

14 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

The talk about blue passports, Empire 2.0 didn't come from the remain side.

 

Likewise, I don't recall a spike in xenophobia and hate crime in the years prior to the Brexit referendum, but there has been one since.  

 

It's not hysterical to point out that your government is about to drive you off a cliff.

 

Sheesh.  Brexiteers just want us to shut up and enjoy the decline.

 

Not gonna happen.

That phrase actually came from Whitehall staff and civil servants, very few of who I imagine didn't vote remain - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ministers-aim-to-build-empire-2-0-with-african-commonwealth-after-brexit-v9bs6f6z9

 

But it hasn't stopped people again deliberately trying to misrepresent it as a viewpoint and desire held by leavers, but I expect nothing else now.

[Vacamion]

Just now, MattP said:

I don't want the future of my country being decided by subservient, safe space adoring, free speech stopping, gender denying cucks either but that's democracy.

 

The amount of actual racists in the country is tiny, the BNP got nothing at the last election, certainly nowhere near the 1.4 million you would have needed to see the refernedum go the other way.

 

That phrase actually came from Whitehall staff and civil servants, very few of who I imagine didn't vote remain - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ministers-aim-to-build-empire-2-0-with-african-commonwealth-after-brexit-v9bs6f6z9

 

But it hasn't stopped people again deliberately trying to misrepresent it as a viewpoint and desire held by leavers, but I expect nothing else now.

 

It was the leave campaign who said that we could offset the impact of leaving the EU by trading with India, Australia, etc, which arrant nonsense.

 

As if we are going to try to get by by selling more whisky and speciality jam to the former empire.

 

 

 

 

[Facecloth]

36 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It's not my analogy.

It wasn't my vote 

[Vacamion]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

The amount of actual racists in the country is tiny

 

That's as maybe, but they're certainly becoming bolder in words and acts which were beyond the pale a few years ago,

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37640982

 

 

[sphericalfox]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

The amount of actual overt racists in the country is tiny, the BNP got nothing at the last election, certainly nowhere near the 1.4 million you would have needed to see the refernedum go the other way.

 

 

Fixed it for you. There are plenty of those with xenophobic opinions that aren't shared publicly, as they know this isn't condoned, but still they'll discuss within their echo chambers, perhaps within their circles under whispered breaths. Considerable older voting generations, but plenty within the middle-aged and younger generations that have been exposed and brought up with these underlying viewpoints.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

It was the leave campaign who said that we could offset the impact of leaving the EU by trading with India, Australia, etc, which arrant nonsense.

 

As if we are going to try to get by by selling more whisky and speciality jam to the former empire.

Long term that is the aim, our trade with Europe was only getting smaller and with the wider World only getting bigger as the graph I have posted shows, one of the reasons the Remain side lost was because they couldn't counter this point.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11700443/The-EUs-dwindling-importance-to-UK-trade-in-three-charts.html

 

But anyway, I was just making the point that things like "Empire 2.0" weren't actually coined by leavers, as you suggested.

[Buce]

Since when has a vote for the BNP been the benchmark for racism?

 

UKIP polled a significant number of votes, many of which came from self-avowed racists, like DT.

[The Guvnor]

7 minutes ago, Emilio Lestavez said:

I don't really want any Brexit but the very least I'd like to see is one that allowed some access to the single market. Whether tariffs or freedom of movement are the concessions that would be fine provided we don't end up significantly worse off as country through trade costs, labour, etc. etc. 

 

I haven't met anybody who voted remain who thinks that stopping it is an option, or indeed genuinely wants that but I don't think a single party with specific interests should be allowed to dictate the terms to which Brexit happens. It's a national, cross party issue and has lasting implications for the electorate of whichever denomination and as such I believe they should have a say in the terms of what they want form the process.

I sort of understand what you are intimating with regards the single market, I am no expert but my understanding is every developed country has access to the single market and there is a distinct difference between being a member and having access.

I understand and sympathise with everyone who voted to remain if you are that passionate about the relationship however the continuous call for a 'soft' Brexit confuses me a little what is a 'soft' Brexit? and more to the point why would the EU want it portrayed that the UK secures any 'soft' deal.

 

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

It wasn't my vote 

That's democracy for you.

[Facecloth]

6 minutes ago, Strokes said:

That's democracy for you.

As is having the right to not like the result.

[Vacamion]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Long term that is the aim, our trade with Europe was only getting smaller and with the wider World only getting bigger as the graph I have posted shows, one of the reasons the Remain side lost was because they couldn't counter this point.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11700443/The-EUs-dwindling-importance-to-UK-trade-in-three-charts.html

 

But anyway, I was just making the point that things like "Empire 2.0" weren't actually coined by leavers, as you suggested.

 

 

That would be the trade we are doing with the rest of the world whilst currently a member of the EU, before we've negotiated (as a desperate supplicant) new trade agreements with them all individually, yes?

 

I still remain to be persuaded that cutting our access to the EU, even if it is a dimishing share compared to non-EU, is in any way a wise move.

 

 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

That's democracy for you.

 

That's a nonsense argument.

 

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario: suppose there was a referendum on reintroducing slavery, and it was ratified by a small majority. Would you seriously expect those opposed to it to accept the democratic decision, and concentrate on making the best of it? To put forward their ideas for what kind of slavery they want?

 

Of course that's an extreme example,  but to those opposed to Brexit, the principle is identical - the only difference is the degree of perceived wrongness.

[Strokes]

7 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

As is having the right to not like the result.

Who is asking you to like it?

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Vacamion said:

 

That would be the trade we are doing with the rest of the world whilst currently a member of the EU, before we've negotiated (as a desperate supplicant) new trade agreements with them all individually, yes?

Yep, we've managed to do that even with the ludcrious tariffs (upto 40% on things like New Zealand lamb, Chilean wine, Israeli produce etc) imposed. Imagine just what we could do with the ability to negotiate our own trade deals, we have to get it right of course, but what an opportunity.

 

The whole thing has long been a protectionist racket, a German scam to be able to use a low currency and it's own high exports for them to dominate the European economy, fair play as well, it worked for them, now running a surplus while Southern Europe is destroyed with debt and austerity.

 

Hitler tried it with tanks, what he needed to do it with was banks.

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

That's a nonsense argument.

 

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario: suppose there was a referendum on reintroducing slavery, and it was ratified by a small majority. Would you seriously expect those opposed to it to accept the democratic decision, and concentrate on making the best of it? To put forward their ideas for what kind of slavery they want?

 

Of course that's an extreme example,  but to those opposed to Brexit, the principle is identical - the only difference is the degree of perceived wrongness.

No but as this isn't an extreme example, leaving the EU, asking people to put forward positive ideas isn't like asking them to whip a slave either.

[Buce]

Just now, Strokes said:

No but as this isn't an extreme example, leaving the EU, asking people to put forward positive ideas isn't like asking them to whip a slave either.

 

My point is that using it's democracy as an argument is flawed.

[Facecloth]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Who is asking you to like it?

Everyone asking me to start waxing lyrical about the type of Brexit I want instead of questioning the whole process. That's a bit like asking what type of cuts to disability benefits I want or what type of dismantling of the NHS I want when the tories win the election. I don't want it, I'd rather they didn't do it, but I'm gonna have to live with whatever they do.