Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Guest]

We're ****ed and the tories should hopefully be kicked out for all time once they've taken brexit down the most difficult path possible

[Foxxed]

On 24/04/2017 at 08:01, Strokes said:

It looks like bursaries for nurses are making a comeback as we have to fill the gap left by EU migrants. Skills for British people and important jobs, for people previously left on the scrap heap. That's what brexit will achieve.

If you wanted bursaries for nurses - which I don't disagree with - you could have supported bursaries for nurses. The idea the EU is stopping that is crazy. The only thing stopping that is British government policy.

[Foxxed]

On 28/04/2017 at 09:33, davieG said:

I really hope that we get back control of our fishing waters and revive the fishing industry albeit with sufficient realistic controls to prevent depleting stocks.

 I hope this improves too, yet there was significant scope to use our old power within the EU to do this on a lager scale

 

In addition to what Buce posted, remember "Fish fight"? A campaign by a British man who altered fish discards and changed EU policy.

 

I would have preferred to use our diplomatic power to fight for better policy - using British diplomats and MEPs in the Commission, EU Parliament and Council - across the whole continent, since the fishing problem is far bigger than simply on our island.

[Foxxed]

On 28/04/2017 at 17:20, Webbo said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/27/eu-trade-commissioner-says-bloc-will-do-post-brexit-free-trade/

Except the trade commissioner won't do the Brexit negotiations. It will be between the member states heads of state and May.

 

If we leave the Single Market -- which May is set on doing -- then our "free trade" deal will up to what the 25 odd member states want.

 

On 28/04/2017 at 11:06, Izzy Muzzett said:

Absolutely.

 

I voted remain because I was still undecided right up until I got to the ballot box. The campaign confused the hell out of me so I bottled it in the end and decided to vote for the status quo.

 

But what's done is done, and I see no point in looking backwards now. Surely it's about time we all pulled together to make it work and get the best deal we can. 

 

But the point is things are not done and done.

 

There are multiple variants of "leaving the EU" from Norway's model of being out of the decision making (i.e. the EU) but in the Single Market and its involved with various EU projects (and paying for that) for many other variants.

 

The reason people are still worked up about is because 1) people want to remain in the Single Market 2) people want a referendum on the deal May agrees on, or 3) people want to rescind Article 50 now we've had an economic taster of how things will be, or 4) they're worried about the terrority of the UK (Northern Ireland kicking off again, Gibraltar, implications for Scottish independence if they don't like the final deal),

 

When we introduced university tuition fees no one said "Guys, what's done is done. There's no going back now. Shhh, everyone. Shhh."

 

[Foxxed]

Did we speak about a post-Brexit weak pound leading to high prices. And high prices leads to fewer goods bought. And fewer goods bought leads to slow growth? Yeah that's happened.

 

"UK economic growth shows weakest growth since Brexit vote"  http://news.sky.com/story/uk-economic-growth-slows-to-03-ahead-of-general-election-10853963

 

Say you own a shop. You know you've increased prices. And you know fewer people buy your stuff. And you know the answer is "no" to the question "is growth good".

 

The answer to "Want to employ someone new?" And the answer to "Will someone now invest in your shop?" And to "Might you need to let someone go soon?" And "Does the weak pound affect your purchasing power?"

 

One example:

 

 

And when we leave the Single Market and our "free trade" and "absolutely no tariffs" is negotiated by the EU member states?

 

And when the more and more employees leave the UK (Deutsche bank spoke of 2000 to 4000 job movements as just one example), not the mention the nurses and the bankers -- all leaving with their spending power too?

 

Weaker pound.

Rising prices.

Falling spending.

Leaving staff.

Slowing growth.

[Vacamion]

 

Yep.

 

The braying sorts on the Tory Right who want us to go back to the 1950s (blue passport, imperial weights, Empire 2.0, no Human Rights Act, etc) don't care about the coming crash, they just want to play at being in pre-Suez Britain again. In fact, the whole "it's all a game, a bloody good wheeze" is what got us here in the first place. I'm looking at you, David Cameron and Boris Johnson.

 

The "up yours Señors"/"Gibraltar is ours"/ "Them Polish are nicking our jobs" sorts haven't considered that there is a crash coming, Brexit wasn't about economics or trade, they just don't like foreigners. I'll know I'll get criticised for suggesting that some of the Brexit vote was motivated by Xenophobia, but there's no escaping it.  When the looming crash hits us, foreigners will be blamed again.

 

Those prophets of optimism in our Government who assert  "Germans want to sell us cars" / "We'll have a strong and special relationship with Europe with access to the Single Market" (the "cake and eat it" brigade) already have a mountain of evidence which is staring them in the face (or telling them over dinner with David Davis) that the rest of Europe will from now on fight for their own interests, to our detriment.  

 

We can't be seen to get a good deal from "The 27", or others will want to leave on the same terms. To quote the FAZ, "Der Brexit kann kein Erfolg werden".

 

We are royally screwed.

 

They didn't put that on the side of their bus, did they?

 

[Strokes]

7 hours ago, Foxxed said:

If you wanted bursaries for nurses - which I don't disagree with - you could have supported bursaries for nurses. The idea the EU is stopping that is crazy. The only thing stopping that is British government policy.

Oh shit really? That's literally the only reason I voted leave as well. Oh god is this that bregret feeling, oh the shame. Boris!! Grrrrr

[Strokes]

6 hours ago, Foxxed said:

Did we speak about a post-Brexit weak pound leading to high prices. And high prices leads to fewer goods bought. And fewer goods bought leads to slow growth? Yeah that's happened.

 

"UK economic growth shows weakest growth since Brexit vote"  http://news.sky.com/story/uk-economic-growth-slows-to-03-ahead-of-general-election-10853963

 

Say you own a shop. You know you've increased prices. And you know fewer people buy your stuff. And you know the answer is "no" to the question "is growth good".

 

The answer to "Want to employ someone new?" And the answer to "Will someone now invest in your shop?" And to "Might you need to let someone go soon?" And "Does the weak pound affect your purchasing power?"

 

One example:

 

 

And when we leave the Single Market and our "free trade" and "absolutely no tariffs" is negotiated by the EU member states?

 

And when the more and more employees leave the UK (Deutsche bank spoke of 2000 to 4000 job movements as just one example), not the mention the nurses and the bankers -- all leaving with their spending power too?

 

Weaker pound.

Rising prices.

Falling spending.

Leaving staff.

Slowing growth.

That's great, we are still showing growth. Pretty amazing really with all you miserable fùckers around.

[Webbo]

Growth in the first quarter of this year is the same as the first quarter of last year, before the referendum.

[Vacamion]

 

Brexit.

 

Has.

 

Not.

 

Kicked.

 

In.

 

Yet.

 

We.

 

Are.

 

Still.

 

Members.

 

Of .

 

The.

 

EU.

 

 

[Webbo]

Do the remainders think if they persist with this hysterical doom mongering we're all going to change our minds and vote lib dem? It's not going to happen. Rather than repeating the same failed arguments why not look to the future, accept the result and discuss the type of brexit you want?

[Guest MattP]

It baffles me howith people are getting so hysterical before negotiations have even started.

 

It's a negotiation, both sides will start off playing hard ball with strong rhetoric then as it comes down to it you moderate.

 

Ffs calm down.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Do the remainders think if they persist with this hysterical doom mongering we're all going to change our minds and vote lib dem? It's not going to happen. Rather than repeating the same failed arguments why not look to the future, accept the result and discuss the type of brexit you want?

The Leavers spent 40 + years whinging about the EU Webbo, it's been 11 months since the EU Referendum so your term 'persist' seems pretty ridiculous. So far the people who voted remain haven't been offered much hope of getting a type of Brexit that they want, what they have been offered is a 'shut up and get over it' which isn't quite the same thing.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

It baffles me howith people are getting so hysterical before negotiations have even started.

 

It's a negotiation, both sides will start off playing hard ball with strong rhetoric then as it comes down to it you moderate.

 

Ffs calm down.

They insisted on knowing every detail and then cry at every detail before the negotiationss have begun. 

Whilst everyone is banging on about the economy slowing, we all knew that it would be up and down during and after the negotiations. In fact it's performed better than most optimists predicted and a world away from the immediate doom some/most predicted. Looking forward 30 years some economic predictions aren't as bad as others.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-article-50-pwc-britain-uk-economy-growing-faster-than-france-and-germany-by-2050-2017-2

[Webbo]

Just now, Emilio Lestavez said:

The Leavers spent 40 + years whinging about the EU Webbo, it's been 11 months since the EU Referendum so your term 'persist' seems pretty ridiculous. So far the people who voted remain haven't been offered much hope of getting a type of Brexit that they want, what they have been offered is a 'shut up and get over it' which isn't quite the same thing.

Actually most people haven't spent 40 years whinging about the EU. If we'd had this referendum in the 80s remain would have had a landslide. It's the last 10 or 20 years as the EU has become more federalist, more autocratic and less democratic that Euro scepticism has grown. Even last year if Cameron had come back with a good deal I would have voted to stay.

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, Emilio Lestavez said:

The Leavers spent 40 + years whinging about the EU Webbo, it's been 11 months since the EU Referendum so your term 'persist' seems pretty ridiculous. So far the people who voted remain haven't been offered much hope of getting a type of Brexit that they want, what they have been offered is a 'shut up and get over it' which isn't quite the same thing.

Why should losers in an election get offered what they want? 

 

If Corbyn won a slight majority should Tory voters complain and demand to be offered a Labour government they want?

[The Guvnor]

7 minutes ago, Emilio Lestavez said:

The Leavers spent 40 + years whinging about the EU Webbo, it's been 11 months since the EU Referendum so your term 'persist' seems pretty ridiculous. So far the people who voted remain haven't been offered much hope of getting a type of Brexit that they want, what they have been offered is a 'shut up and get over it' which isn't quite the same thing.

Emilio as a matter of interest could you explain in detail what type of Brexit you would like to see?

[Lionator]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

Why should losers in an election get offered what they want? 

 

If Corbyn won a slight majority should Tory voters complain and demand to be offered a Labour government they want?

I think they're maybe just a bit worried about their future. You should always fight for what you believe in and the moment you tell the other side to shut up is the moment that democracy dies.

[Facecloth]

Saying Remainers should stop complaining and tell us the Brexit they want is a bit daft. It's like asking a City fan if they'd like Forest, Derby, or Coventry to win the premier league. I don't want Brexit like I don't want those three to be champions. Now I accept we're getting Brexit, but how can I say what type I want when I don't want any kind? In the football scenario I'd like the FA to defect 20 points off them all, but knowing that ain't gonna happen I'll just have to grin and bear whoever comes out on top, and it's the same with Brexit. I think it's pretty obvious that most remainers would prefer the softest Brexit possible, but that's still a Brexit we not happy with.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Lionator said:

I think they're maybe just a bit worried about their future. You should always fight for what you believe in and the moment you tell the other side to shut up is the moment that democracy dies.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion but it's the standard of the debate that gets on people's nerves. Our side has consistency been misrepresented ,we're all racist thugs, then we're all voting for blue passports a return to empire etc.

 

Then there's the repeated predictions of doom, every economic indicator is highlighted, whether good or bad, to say I told you so. Everything the govt says is deluded, everything the EU say is proof we're going to get a bad deal.

 

So much of the debate is hysterical nonsense.

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Saying Remainers should stop complaining and tell us the Brexit they want is a bit daft. It's like asking a City fan if they'd like Forest, Derby, or Coventry to win the premier league. I don't want Brexit like I don't want those three to be champions. Now I accept we're getting Brexit, but how can I say what type I want when I don't want any kind? In the football scenario I'd like the FA to defect 20 points off them all, but knowing that ain't gonna happen I'll just have to grin and bear whoever comes out on top, and it's the same with Brexit. I think it's pretty obvious that most remainers would prefer the softest Brexit possible, but that's still a Brexit we not happy with.

I'd just pick derby and think about next season.

[Facecloth]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I'd just pick derby and think about next season.

Not gonna be a next season in remainers minds.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Not gonna be a next season in remainers minds.

It's not my analogy.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

Emilio as a matter of interest could you explain in detail what type of Brexit you would like to see?

I don't really want any Brexit but the very least I'd like to see is one that allowed some access to the single market. Whether tariffs or freedom of movement are the concessions that would be fine provided we don't end up significantly worse off as country through trade costs, labour, etc. etc. 

 

I haven't met anybody who voted remain who thinks that stopping it is an option, or indeed genuinely wants that but I don't think a single party with specific interests should be allowed to dictate the terms to which Brexit happens. It's a national, cross party issue and has lasting implications for the electorate of whichever denomination and as such I believe they should have a say in the terms of what they want from the process.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Emilio Lestavez said:

I don't really want any Brexit but the very least I'd like to see is one that allowed some access to the single market. Whether tariffs or freedom of movement are the concessions that would be fine provided we don't end up significantly worse off as country through trade costs, labour, etc. etc. 

 

I haven't met anybody who voted remain who thinks that stopping it is an option, or indeed genuinely wants that but I don't think a single party with specific interests should be allowed to dictate the terms to which Brexit happens. It's a national, cross party issue and has lasting implications for the electorate of whichever denomination and as such I believe they should have a say in the terms of what they want form the process.

Every country has access to the single market, it will just be on WTO terms if no tariffs are agreed.