Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Spudulike]

1 minute ago, sphericalfox said:

 

If they did, it'll be to reveal the incompetence of the leader who if actually elected will be negotiating on the British public's behalf. 

Surely the election of an imcompetent British leader will be beneficial to the EU in the negotiations ??

[sphericalfox]

2 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

Surely the election of an imcompetent British leader will be beneficial to the EU in the negotiations ??

Pretty sure they don't want a Brexit. But a non-Conservative government might find things either reversed or certainly 'softer'.

[Spudulike]

2 minutes ago, sphericalfox said:

Pretty sure they don't want a Brexit. But a non-Conservative government might find things either reversed or certainly 'softer'.

So the EU might be trying to influence the outcome of a UK election ?? Seems at odds with their stance that it will make no difference to the negotiations.

[sphericalfox]

2 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

So the EU might be trying to influence the outcome of a UK election ?? Seems at odds with their stance that it will make no difference to the negotiations.

Ifs, ands, and buts. If it was them, what's your conclusion to the motivation?

[Spudulike]

4 minutes ago, sphericalfox said:

Ifs, ands, and buts. If it was them, what's your conclusion to the motivation?

A poorly disguised attempt at discrediting your opponent. It's not new and you might think it a basic or even crude attempt to get an upper-hand when things don't go the way you expect or want.

[The Guvnor]

2 hours ago, foxinexile said:

Maybe I'm being cynical, but this whole "the EU27 are going to punish us for leaving" sounds like a very convenient scapegoat argument that can be used if leaving does turn into a disaster. It won't be the UK's fault, it'll be the evil EU punishing us for having the audacity to leave. Utter rubbish! We are choosing to leave, we are not being forced out. Why on earth would the remaining countries not want to protect their own collective interests? I find the arrogance of some Leave supporters in their assumptions, expectations and demands that we should be given a full dinner plate on departure astounding. Why would this be made easy for us? Why should it be made easy? Theresa May is at it too, trying to turn this into an "us versus them" scenario which I think shows how desperately she is already scraping the barrel. Now that Article 50 has been invoked, I think it's in everyone's interest to hope that we do get the best possible outcome - but if that outcome is slightly worse or considerably worse than what we have already, I think it would be wrong to blame "them". Rather it should give us foresight into our future role as a "global" Britain. If we lack the influence to negotiate a good deal with a group we've been part of since 1973, I think that sends a signal to the rest of the world (who we'll need to strike trade deals with) that Britain may be ever so slightly diminished outside the EU and not so "great" after all. Let's hope I'm absolutely wrong - nothing would make me happier if I am!

But we did lack any influence didn't we when Cameron tried and failed to get concessions on a few, lets face it, basic demands and returned with the square root of fcuk all. I think that little gesture when the EU were aware what the consequences could be spoke volumes about our relationship.

[sphericalfox]

1 minute ago, Spudulike said:

A poorly disguised attempt at discrediting your opponent. It's not new and you might think it a basic or even crude attempt to get an upper-hand when things don't go the way you expect or want.

Are you suggesting that May/Britain has the upperhand? lols

[Spudulike]

4 minutes ago, sphericalfox said:

Are you suggesting that May/Britain has the upperhand? lols

No, I didn't say that. Put it another way, would you have been happy if Jean-Claude had announced that he's very content with the way talks are going and is confident of reaching a good deal soon for all parties ?? Would that have set alarm bells ringing ??

[sphericalfox]

1 minute ago, Spudulike said:

No, I didn't say that. Put it another way, would you have been happy if Jean-Claude had announced that he's very content with the way talks are going and is confident of reaching a good deal soon for all parties ?? Would that have set alarm bells ringing ??

I'd be very surprised if he did. The negotiations are going to take about 8-10 years.

[fuchsntf]

I took a beautiful German girl off them ,I am staying in Germany, I am in the German pension scheme,

I will die in Germany, I will be cremated in Germany,

with my ashes causing an eviromental hazzard, plus I leave behind my kids and grand kids...

 

 

ffs cant beat them at football, but when it comes to the important things in life, I/me whup em everytime.

I dont need crap UK politicians, to do my work and realise my calling in life...The Aussies were right

pomes all of you!!   You only vote so you can moan, now only a few of you  vote, you have less to moan about.

Nice to be conned by Europe, now you can feel clean, and get conned further by the true  Blackwatch traitors

If the nation was a football team, youd be relegated like Coventry..

[foxinexile]

58 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

But we did lack any influence didn't we when Cameron tried and failed to get concessions on a few, lets face it, basic demands and returned with the square root of fcuk all. I think that little gesture when the EU were aware what the consequences could be spoke volumes about our relationship.

I agree. Cameron's failure to get concessions demonstrated that even inside the EU our influence was/is not as influential as some people like to believe our general standing in the world is. We have to face the reality that in terms of influence and power, as a country we are not as relevant as we'd like to believe. I know people don't like to hear that and it's not a criticism but I think it demonstrates how we'll be further diminished outside the EU. Boris Johnson's failure to secure backing for sanctions against Russia and Syria at the recent G7 summit was a reminder of this. In fairness to him, his intentions were good and I respected him for taking a stand ... but that's where it ended, because the respect and influence was not significant enough to persuade others to back him. It was an early display of how we can expect to be sidelined in global issues in the future (purely just in my opinion of course!)

 

As part of a bloc such as the EU, we contribute to a collective influence. Outside of that bloc, standing alone, our influence will naturally be diminished. And I don't think that any ambivalence towards the UK by the remaining 27 countries is punishment for leaving, it's just recognition that we are not the biggest dog in the yard, and as such don't perhaps need to be treated with such respect. It's a sorry state all round and I do agree with Theresa May that negotiations are going to be very tough purely because of this. But I also agree that she is on another planet if she thinks she can strike up a free trade deal in two years which keeps all the benefits of the Single Market, minus freedom of movement, on the basis that she holds influence and that we as a country are significantly important. Neither of those stand true. Even her mate Donald Trump seems to have been swooned by Merkel (each to their own!) and his eyes look increasingly likely to be turning towards a trade deal with the EU27 as priority over the UK despite his earlier suggestions. And where will that leave us? Exactly where Obama said it would - at the back of the queue. 

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, sphericalfox said:

I'd be very surprised if he did. The negotiations are going to take about 8-10 years.

Do you want to back this opinion up with some serious money?

 

I'll heavily go it doesn't. (And this bet isn't just an offer to find out who you really are)

[Nick]

20 minutes ago, MattP said:

Do you want to back this opinion up with some serious money?

 

I'll heavily go it doesn't. (And this bet isn't just an offer to find out who you really are)

I'm not aware of any identity issues regarding Spherical? I've met him been to games with him and shared numerous beers!

[Strokes]

13 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

I'm not aware of any identity issues regarding Spherical? I've met him been to games with him and shared numerous beers!

I'm sorry to hear that.

[Nick]

6 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I'm sorry to hear that.

Why? 

 

 

[Buce]

9 hours ago, foxinexile said:

I agree. Cameron's failure to get concessions demonstrated that even inside the EU our influence was/is not as influential as some people like to believe our general standing in the world is. We have to face the reality that in terms of influence and power, as a country we are not as relevant as we'd like to believe. I know people don't like to hear that and it's not a criticism but I think it demonstrates how we'll be further diminished outside the EU. Boris Johnson's failure to secure backing for sanctions against Russia and Syria at the recent G7 summit was a reminder of this. In fairness to him, his intentions were good and I respected him for taking a stand ... but that's where it ended, because the respect and influence was not significant enough to persuade others to back him. It was an early display of how we can expect to be sidelined in global issues in the future (purely just in my opinion of course!)

 

As part of a bloc such as the EU, we contribute to a collective influence. Outside of that bloc, standing alone, our influence will naturally be diminished. And I don't think that any ambivalence towards the UK by the remaining 27 countries is punishment for leaving, it's just recognition that we are not the biggest dog in the yard, and as such don't perhaps need to be treated with such respect. It's a sorry state all round and I do agree with Theresa May that negotiations are going to be very tough purely because of this. But I also agree that she is on another planet if she thinks she can strike up a free trade deal in two years which keeps all the benefits of the Single Market, minus freedom of movement, on the basis that she holds influence and that we as a country are significantly important. Neither of those stand true. Even her mate Donald Trump seems to have been swooned by Merkel (each to their own!) and his eyes look increasingly likely to be turning towards a trade deal with the EU27 as priority over the UK despite his earlier suggestions. And where will that leave us? Exactly where Obama said it would - at the back of the queue. 

 

This is possibly the best post in this entire thread.

[The Doctor]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/02/britains-energy-supply-is-in-jeopardy-after-brexit-warn-mps

 

Yet more bad news... didn't need to pull out of euratom in the article 50 letter though (different body to the EU) - just yet another cockup by an incompetent government 

[Guest MattP]

8 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

I'm not aware of any identity issues regarding Spherical? I've met him been to games with him and shared numerous beers!

I've asked him numerous times over the years to tell me who is really is and he won't. Even his Twitter handle was/is "Sphericalfox" rather than his real name with no picture of himself.

 

But anyway back on topic, more leaks from Brussels now in German newspapers, looks like this is how it's going to be so we are probably going to have to be a bit dirty as well.

[surrifox]

Hasn't Juncker got some anti-Britain previous? I seem to recall we were pretty opposed to his appointment at the time .

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, surrifox said:

Hasn't Juncker got some anti-Britain previous? I seem to recall we were pretty opposed to his appointment at the time .

 

He doesn't like us one bit, never has and how he is still in the job is pretty baffling given a member state has gone under his watch.

 

The bloke is a bigoted, drunken sexist anyway, I'm glad May didn't enjoy his company. 

[Vacamion]

 

Those of us pointing at the FAZ article aren't necessarily fans of Juncker, or wanting Brexit to fail, or "anti Britain".

 

A divisive narrative is developing that only those calling for hard Brexit, or a potential "no deal" outcome, along with a refusal to consider liabilities created by our exit (e.g. pensions), are true Brits and therefore all other positions are somehow unpatriotic.

 

Can one not wish the best for one's country by wanting the government to face up to the hard choices and to be realistic about the resultant economic pain, rather than shrugging and giving them a free pass when they suggest without evidence and contrary to indicators that everything will be rosy after the "red white and blue Brexit"?

[Guest MattP]

You can be critical of anything but it does appear some do want to take the side of the EU, Tim Farron for a starter. 

 

If we take the Juncker leak at face value, it is he rather than May who wants the hardest Brexit possible. 

 

So I find it strange some of the remain voters are supportive of Juncker and therefore a hard Brexit, but only if it's not done by us and instead done by the politicians in Brussels.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

You can be critical of anything but it does appear some do want to take the side of the EU, Tim Farron for a starter. 

 

If we take the Juncker leak at face value, it is he rather than May who wants the hardest Brexit possible. 

 

So I find it strange some of the remain voters are supportive of Juncker and therefore a hard Brexit, but only if it's not done by us and instead done by the politicians in Brussels.

The idea that europe wants to see the loss of free trade is nonsensical. The EU don't want a hsrd brexit but have a set of red lines. It isn't us vs them. It's us vs us.

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, toddybad said:

The idea that europe wants to see the loss of free trade is nonsensical. The EU don't want a hsrd brexit but have a set of red lines. It isn't us vs them. It's us vs us.

They have free trade agreements with other nations outside of the bloc, they  are not restricted to the red lines that are in the media. I'd rather walk on WTO terms than a soft brexit.

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, The Doctor said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/02/britains-energy-supply-is-in-jeopardy-after-brexit-warn-mps

 

Yet more bad news... didn't need to pull out of euratom in the article 50 letter though (different body to the EU) - just yet another cockup by an incompetent government 

 

This, of course, being the tip of the scientific collaboration problem iceberg as we're both well aware.